Discussion on costs of Characteristics

[Comic]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

To me STR is the epitome of the black box syndrome. It is a way in which the game designer is telling you that any character who has high strength will also have higher PD, REC and STUN whether you like it or not.

Doc

 

OTOH, even the strongest Brick is going to have a far lower figured PD than recommended for the DCs her STR recommends, and no one twists the player's arm to spend more on PD on top of that. It's just a good idea.

 

That the limitation 'No Figured Characteristics', the power Telekinesis (no Range), HA, and various Vulnerabilities (All Physical Attacks, eg) are available, pretty much says this isn't a Black Box, as it's far from untouchable by the character creator.

 

It's more.. a model of what STR generally reflects.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

OTOH' date=' even the strongest Brick is going to have a far lower figured PD than recommended for the DCs her STR recommends, and no one twists the player's arm to spend more on PD on top of that. It's just a good idea.[/quote']

 

They do buy more PD but it is assumed by the system that a STR of X will have at least a PD of Y. It is thrust upon the character whether you want it or not (along with the REC and STUN and leaping, lifting and all the other bits and pieces)

 

That the limitation 'No Figured Characteristics'' date=' the power Telekinesis (no Range), HA, and various Vulnerabilities (All Physical Attacks, eg) are available, pretty much says this isn't a Black Box, as it's far from untouchable by the character creator.[/quote']

 

These affect the outputs of the black box - doesn't show why the relationships are there to begin with. You either buy the STR as is, limit it, or buy other powers to reflect what you actually want (the route I would suggest we all went down anyway).

 

It's more.. a model of what STR generally reflects.

 

And there you commit the Hero sin. You imply SFX from the mechanical base. Hero is structured that you buy the mechanical effects you want and apply SFX after - characteristics are set up to break that rule when they say that STR does the following things and provides the following side benefits because that's what strength does.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

That the limitation 'No Figured Characteristics'' date=' the power Telekinesis (no Range), HA, and various Vulnerabilities (All Physical Attacks, eg) are available, pretty much says this isn't a Black Box, as it's far from untouchable by the character creator.[/quote']

 

Telekinesis is also Indirect when one reads the rules, a fact which is commonly overlooked.

 

STR 10 points, Ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4). No Figured (-1/2) would cost 15 points, just like 10 points of Telekinesis.

 

Is No Figured vastly undervalued at -1/2? Absolutely. But, to me, that is best solved by correcting the Figured's themselves. As noted previously, this is supported by the fact that Figured stats are rarely bought up as compared to other alternatives for helping the character last longer in combat. Figured stats other than DEX and SPD are a poor deal at their stated prices, so people "buy" them through STR and CON.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Whoops! I see that I read it wrong. My version also keeps Jow Normal the same, by simply giving a flat base of 2 PD and 2 ED.

 

 

I build bricks at STR 2:1 regularly. They work just fine in my games. Do yuo need a whole character write-up? Here's a possible stat-block:

 

60 STR (100)

23 DEX (39)

28 CON (36)

10 BODY (0)

13 INT (3)

11 EGO (2)

25 PRE (15)

10 COM (0)

25 PD (13) base=12

20 ED (14) base=6

5 SPD (17) base=3.3

18 REC (0) base=18

56 END (0) base=56

54 STUN (0) base=54

Characteristic total: 239 points

 

8 20" Leaping (base=12")

15 Damage Resistance - makes 18 PD and 12 ED resistant

Powers cost (so far): 23 points

 

We've spent 262 points so far. That leaves us with 88 more points to spend on Skills, Enhanced Senses, Brick Tricks, more DEF/BODY/Other Chars, Damage Reduction, or other brickly goodness.

 

Is this not a viable, competitive brick to you?

 

To follow up on "it depends", my experience is that Bricks with a stat block such as this in my 350 point games do not overpower or overshadow other archetypes when paying 50 for their STR. The extra 50 point cost has to come from somewhere.

 

If we rewrote the Champions solely to change STR to 2:1, and eliminate the excess cost from those characters with STR above 10 by selling back other combat-related abilities, how would those characters now compare?

 

Or pick any other established team in the Champions Universe and perform the same exercise. The only catch is that all extra points required to double the cost of STR must come from combat-related abilities.

 

Actually, just take a look at some teams with balanced memberships. Do the Bricks have lower point totals than the other members of more or less equal effectiveness? If not, they would need to have higher point totals to remain competitive if we double the price of STR.

[Kenn]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

The ego attack probably costs more than that as you have only used low levels of indirect and IPE' date=' but then Hero is designed to make building things one way more expensive than building them another.[/quote']

 

Actually, I was trying to model a basic Ego Attack as an advantaged Energy Blast. The low levels of IPE are because of the "cost is halved if the source of the power can still be detected" clause in the IPE rule. The low level of indirect is because EGO blasts can ignore things like PD/ED force walls (unless they're opaque, but the LOS covers that).

 

The one thing I left off is the OCV vs DCV compared to ECV vs ECV.

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

But each one of those powers is still costing you 30 (positive) points.

They each cost you 60 points before you put them in the EC. Now they cost you less. You buy a bunch of figured characteristics they cost you points. You buy up STR, they now cost you less. It's the same sort of thing. You buy basically the same thing, in a different 'package,' and get a discount.

 

 

If you want a concrete expample of more power for a negative cost, consider a character that buys 3 powers, one at 60 Apts, and two at 50. He buys up two of those powers to 60 so he can put them in an EC with the first. He's bought 20 active points of power for a cost of -40.

 

All he's done is conform to a formula to get a discount. Buy your powers at the same Apt levels with the same F/X, get a discount. Buy your PD, REC and STN up as you buy up your STR, get a discount.

 

 

Stats come in very specific packages and save you a lot, percentage wise. Power in frameworks come in more flexible packages, at a lower marginal discount.

 

But, when you think about it the savings from frameworks can be as high or higher than the savings from STR.

 

Take a typical brick in a typical 12d-limit campaign. He can buy his STR up to 60. He's saving 55 points on figured characteristics for spending 50 on STR - assuming, of course, he wants the +10pd, +10 REC and +25 STN. If he doesn't, he can either sell one of them back or take the 'no figured characteristics' limitation on his STR.

 

A typical EP in the same game might have a 3 slot EC with a 12d EB, FF, & Flight. He's spending 120 points, and saving 60. Lower percentage, but more actual points saved.

 

Both characters may also save figured characteristics points for CON and DEX, as well, of course. But the brick, unless the campaign limits change, is not going to be saving any more points for STR, while the EP might add another slot or two to his EC, saving another 30 points with each one.

[Tonio]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

They each cost you 60 points before you put them in the EC. Now they cost you less. You buy a bunch of figured characteristics they cost you points. You buy up STR' date=' they now cost you less. It's the same sort of thing. You buy basically the same thing, in a different 'package,' and get a discount.[/quote']

 

The big difference is that when you "buy" an EC, you're actually reducing your overall utility/efficiency while saving points, but when you buy STR, you're gaining overall utility/efficiency while saving points.

 

See, when you get an EC, the points savings come at a cost of risking having all those powers reduced if one gets adjusted negatively. When you buy STR, the points savings come along with extra damage, lifting power, leaping, etc. There is, in fact, no downside to buying extra STR in some/many/most/all (pick whichever you want, point still stands) situations. On the other hand, there's usually/always (ditto) a downside in getting an EC.

 

You also get "points savings" when you apply OAF to a power. That doesn't make it "free points, whoopee!", because they come with a downside.

 

Now, it can be argued that the points savings from EC are too high for their cost... but that's a separate argument altogether!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

But the EC savings come with a huge flexibility on what you save points on and its a saving that keeps going on saving as you build your character. With STR your savings are strictly defined and unlikely to expand their possibilities as the game progresses.

 

cost/benefit flexibility/risk

 

 

Doc

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

The big difference is that when you "buy" an EC' date=' you're actually reducing your overall utility/efficiency while saving points, but when you buy STR, you're gaining overall utility/efficiency while saving points.[/quote']You'll have to bear with me, by the time 4th came out, I was already getting the various editions confused, and 5th seemed hardly to change anything, yet /has/ made some changes that often slip my mind.

 

I do seem to remember, now, that there was a great deal of angst over the unjustified 'free' points from ECs, that led to the rather minor bit about adjustment powers hitting ECs a little harder.

 

That's what happens when you fiddle with a mechanic to make some people happy: you make others unhappy. Folks were unhappy with the EC discount, they were placated, now other folks are unhappy with figured characteristics.

 

I suppose you could invoke the same solution: make adjustment powers affect figured characteristics when they target the corresponding primary characteristic. Heck, I guess you might as well just have them go against real points instead of active... (But, then, adjustment powers would become 'too powerful').

 

Now, it can be argued that the points savings from EC are too high for their cost... but that's a separate argument altogether!

An old argument, in fact, that someone won when Mr. Long was writing FRED, aparently.

 

 

I guess my opinion, when you come down to it, is that Hero got about as good as it could get in 4th. FRED isn't worse or anything, it just addresses some persistent issues by creating others - it's about as good, just in different ways.

 

But we all have our pet peeves. I can't stand that TK and HA don't conform to 5pts/die, for instance. And I hate the lack of Regen in FRED almost as much as I hated the version of Regen in the BBB.

[Tonio]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

I suppose you could invoke the same solution: make adjustment powers affect figured characteristics when they target the corresponding primary characteristic.

 

That still doesn't make both situations analogous, since EC gives you only points, while STR gives you points AND abilities (even if it now comes with the disadvantage that draining it also drains figureds).

 

Another way to fix it would be having STR give you no figureds. Or eliminating the entire concept of Figured Characteristics. And splitting STR into its component abilities. Like, actually following HERO rules regarding "reasoning from effect", instead of paying points for SFX-based stats which give you a whole suite of abilities. "Pay for EB, get damage at range", "Pay for Aid, get a boost to a Power", "Pay for STR, get lifting capacity, hth damage, leaping, PD, etc...". Also fixes the contrived -1/2 pseudo-limitation on HA, hee hee. =)

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

And splitting STR into its component abilities. Like' date=' actually following HERO rules regarding "reasoning from effect", instead of paying points for SFX-based stats which give you a whole suite of abilities. ""Pay for STR, get lifting capacity, hth damage, leaping, PD, etc...". [/quote']I've been down that line of reasoning before. It doesn't end well. You persue elegance and end up with added complexity for basically no return. Characteristics are mostly everyday things. It makes little sense to carve them up like that.

 

Also fixes the contrived -1/2 pseudo-limitation on HA, hee hee. =)

That's a long-time controversey, and I don't like the solution, either. I'd like to know what the power does if I 'buy off' that limitation. I vocally advocated a 5pt HA back in the day, but it didn't fly with Mr. Long.

 

Actually, I hunted up my old files to post on the Regen thread, might as well share it here:

 

Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:

 

A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount

of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character

Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as

physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly

to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-

hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the

attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR

damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is

defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that

would have to be extended to strength.

 

Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy

Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of

damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. An HA can also

be used to help Block an opponent's attack. The character is considered

'armed' and has a +1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character

does not want to be able to use his HA in these ways, he can take

the -1/4 'Beam' limitation.

 

Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost

10pts.

 

 

The theory here is that it can be used to 'transform' STR damage, much like an HKA, and that helps justify the cost being the same as EB, just as HKA & RKA share the same cost/die. It also has some utility similar to EB (though, in FRED, so do a lot of other things - this was written under the BBB).

[Tonio]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

So your HA is STR that trades figureds, leaping, lifting, escaping grabs, resisting disarms, and mebbe other stuff I'm forgetting for being able to "spread" like an EB, except only for added OCV, not for area? Seems expensive! I can almost buy a 2pt CSL for each 5pts of regular STR just by trading off the figureds (-1/2, No Figured, is 1.67 pts per d6 of STR damage), if I buy back leaping and, say, PD, I can buy a 3pt CSL for each and still have some points left over. If I'm already raising all the figureds, I can reduce them (that is, buy less of them), and buy even more/better CSLs.

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

And it can transform STR damage to energy or stun-only rather than normal physical, and it can be placed in power frameworks, yes. It was neatly balanced with the BBB versions of EB, RKA & HKA, which is really all you needed to make it a worthwhile power. (though, as I understand it, some EB tricks are more broadly available in FRED). The 'bundled' nature of STR is something you'd want to consider in the broader context of power frameworks and character builds (as in this thread).

 

Yes, you can always buy STR or levels, but buying it limitted or in a power framework is an issue. Not so with a power like HA.

 

To illustrate, say you had a 30 STR character who wanted to push his damage potential up to the 12dc campaign limit, but didn't want martial arts or to be an outright brick, nor did he want to become an EP. He could buy a melee weapon, like a sword, or maybe even some non-focused KA, like a 'psychic energy blade' or something. 30 Apts gets him a 4d RKA (p or e) with his STR included. But, KAs aren't right for every campaign. For 20 Rpts he could get the FRED HA and smack people around about like a 60 STR brick. Or, as you point out, he could take some heavily-limitted STR, No Figured Characteristics, only to punch (-1/4), and get about the same effect for slightly less points (17). Either way, he's strictly doing normal-physical damage, and has no particular options from his 'power.' He couldn't use either to simulate some sort of melee based normal energy attack. If he wants a meciful no-BOD 'stun batton' or something, his STR can't add to it. He could also simply take some levels, or build some 5-point levels into it if it's focused.

 

Say he takes the STR option and 4 3pt levels (for blocking & punching both). That's 29 points. Compared to the HA above, he's a point ahead, and 2 OCV better when blocking, not to mention having levels without having to give up damage. Strictly better.

 

Now, say he wants that 2d HKA, too. No limitation, just a 2d HKA. That's 30 points for the reserve, 3 points for the HKA ultra, and 3 points for the variant HA ultra, 36 points. For the FRED HA, it's 35 points, because of the 1/2 limitation on one slot. For the 29-point limitted STR+levels option, OTOH, it's 47 points. The levels don't fit in the slot with the limitted STR so they're being bought straight up, and the point savings from the limitaitons on STR are tiny, since they only aply to the one slot. So, drop the levels and compare. All pretty comparable. The variant HA costs an extra point, but you do get a little something for that point.

 

But, really, that's not a reason to add the variant power (or even, really, the FRED version). Where an HA variant really starts to add to the game is when you want to transform STR damage. If you don't want to slice your opponents up with a laser-sword, you can't stack your STR damage to an energy attack in Hero. With an HA that can be defined as STN-only or even simply as energy instead of physcial, you can. It also avoids the problem of NPAs aplying to STR. Instead of having a power that 'makes STR AP,' you'd simply buy an AP HA. That sort of thing.

[Tonio]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

And it can transform STR damage to energy or stun-only rather than normal physical, and it can be placed in power frameworks, yes. It was neatly balanced with the BBB versions of EB, RKA & HKA, which is really all you needed to make it a worthwhile power. (though, as I understand it, some EB tricks are more broadly available in FRED). The 'bundled' nature of STR is something you'd want to consider in the broader context of power frameworks and character builds (as in this thread).

 

Yes, you can always buy STR or levels, but buying it limitted or in a power framework is an issue. Not so with a power like HA.

 

When you say "transform", do you mean after buying it? Or do you mean "defined when bought, can't change afterwards"? I understood the latter when I read your description. The former would certainly help balance it, but seems odd, since it'd be the only Power with that ability.

 

Regarding Power Frameworks... you can already put STR in a Multipower, it just has to have the No Figured Characteristics Limitation.

 

Regarding splitting it into its components, removing figureds, and the complexity it adds... it's not really that much more complex. It certainly adds some complexity, in that to build a character with a concept of "I'm strong" you need to buy more Powers, but it reduces complexity in other ways. Like how to deal with a character who can lift a car, but can't punch harder than me. Or basically how to build tons of other "Strength" concepts that don't involve being more muscled (hydraulic lift style strength (high slow strength, low explosive, no figureds), auxiliary servo strength (low slow strength, high explosive strength costing no endurance, no PD, added REC), surrounded-by-kinetic-field strength (low slow strength, high explosive strength costing extra endurance, added PD, no added REC), etc.).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Telekinesis is also Indirect when one reads the rules, a fact which is commonly overlooked.

 

STR 10 points, Ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4). No Figured (-1/2) would cost 15 points, just like 10 points of Telekinesis.

 

Is No Figured vastly undervalued at -1/2? Absolutely. But, to me, that is best solved by correcting the Figured's themselves. As noted previously, this is supported by the fact that Figured stats are rarely bought up as compared to other alternatives for helping the character last longer in combat. Figured stats other than DEX and SPD are a poor deal at their stated prices, so people "buy" them through STR and CON.

 

Agreed, but just as a side point, strength itself is indirect: you can reach around an obstacle to grab someone or lob a grenade over a wall. True it is not as indirect as TK, which can even ignore englobing barriers, but it is another feature of 'normal' strength that contributes to the utility and so should be taken into consideration when cost balancing.

[caris]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Agreed' date=' but just as a side point, strength itself is indirect: you can reach around an obstacle to grab someone or lob a grenade over a wall. True it is not as indirect as TK, which can even ignore englobing barriers, but it is another feature of 'normal' strength that contributes to the utility and so should be taken into consideration when cost balancing.[/quote']

 

Yeah, and if my "point of origin" is my hand, foot, top of my head, tail, certain primary and secondary secual traits any power has the same amount of "indirect" as a grab or a punch.

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

When you say "transform"' date=' do you mean after buying it? Or do you mean "defined when bought, can't change afterwards"?[/quote'] Oh, the latter, certainly. There are two considerations with a new power. One of course, is 'is it balanced?' The other, though, is 'is it worthwhile,' the ability to 'transform' STR damage the way an HKA does, doesn't much affect the balance of the power when you choose not to do it, but it /is/ a worthwhile thing to have in the game.

 

Plus, it just fits with HKA vs RKA. An HKA stacks with STR, and RKA doesn't but is ranged. HKA 'doesnt' stack with STR' and RKA 'no range' are mechanically identical. A variant HA(e) 'doesn't stack with STR' and 'beam' is likewise identical to an EB(e) 'no range' and 'beam.' (And, even without the 'beam' limitation, they're pretty close).

 

What makes it confusing is that the HA overlaps. An energy or stun-only HA transfroms STR damage, while a normal-physical one just adds to it, and that aspect of the power is not apparent. The same happens with other mechanics in odd corner cases (low Apt reduced-END FF vs Armor; limitting a power vs buying a very poor END reserve for it, etc).

 

Regarding Power Frameworks... you can already put STR in a Multipower, it just has to have the No Figured Characteristics Limitation.

And nothing else you put in the multipower is likely to have that limitation - certainly nothing in the usual Attack/Defense/movement triumvirate - making the point savings trivial (1pt in the example, above).

 

Like how to deal with a character who can lift a car, but can't punch harder than me.

No-range TK

 

Or basically how to build tons of other "Strength" concepts that don't involve being more muscled

That just sounds like F/X

 

(hydraulic lift style strength (high slow strength, low explosive, no figureds) auxiliary servo strength (low slow strength, high explosive strength costing no endurance, no PD, added REC),

You lost me with the slow/explosive thing....?

 

surrounded-by-kinetic-field strength (low slow strength, high explosive strength costing extra endurance, added PD, no added REC), etc.).

EC w/TK (or HA) & FF.

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Agreed' date=' but just as a side point, strength itself is indirect: you can reach around an obstacle to grab someone or lob a grenade over a wall.While you can, indeed, lob a grenade over a wall, IRL, and many a GM might well let you do so with a simple grenade bought only with AE and OAF, /technically/ a stickler of a DM might make you buy indirect to do so, and the non-stickler is likely going to compensate by letting your grenade be Missle Deflected, too.

 


You can 'reach around' an obstacle with any attack. You can fire a gun around a corner, for instance, while exposing only your head and arm.

[Kenn]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Okay, outside of the "default" "Hi I'm a biological being" explanation what are some special effect for the game mechanics non-resistant PD, RECovery and STUN?

 

Is there any one special effect that would justify the game system benefits of increasing all three(PD, REC, STUN) but would specifically EXCLUDE the increased lifting and damage capabilities that come with "STR"? I'm assuming that they have to be non-biological special effects.

 

The "Reasoning from Effect" should apply to increasing just the secondaries, without raising the primary, which, obviously, is some GMs' preference.

[Lucius]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Simple question: How can you generate more points from strength considering that you can only sell one ability back.

 

Surely you’re aware that the reason that rule even exists is to prevent someone from buying up CON and/or STR and then selling their fruits at a profit? Doesn’t the fact that such a rule was necessary tell you anything?

 

Just look at Hal and John

 

Okay, I admit that this was a hard concept to grasp. Let me see if I understand now what your argument is.

 

When you buy STR or CON, you get the other goodies “bundled” with it at a kind of discount. If you have an Elemental Control, you also get a group of powers at “discount rates.”

 

But when we “sell back” a secondary characteristic, it’s valued at the same cost as if it had been bought up separately.

 

Your examples don’t mean much without an explanation, but let me look at them again:

 

 

Hal

 

30 Green Magic EC

30 40 Str TK

30 12d6 EB

30 30"Flight

30 30/30 FF

30 12/12 FW

---

180 points

 

John

60 40 Str TK

60 12d6 EB

60 30"Flight

60 30/30 FF

60 12/12 FW

----

300 Points

 

When someone sells a figured characteristic back at full value, it is as if Hal there “sold back” one of the slots on his Elemental Control for the full 60 Active Point cost. If Hal could do that with three slots, he’d get back 180 pts – his full investment, giving him, effectively, two 60 pt powers for free. If he sold one of the last two off at that price, he’d still have a 60 pt power PLUS a “free” 60 pts. He’d invest 180 pts and get 240 back.

 

Of course, if I’m sketching out a character and change my mind about buying some powers through an Elemental Control and cross them off the sheet, all I get back is what I actually spent on them – I can’t get “full value” because I didn’t pay “full price.” And yet, that is exactly what one is doing by buying up STR and then selling off STUN. And THAT, I think, is your point.

 

I hope you appreciate how hard it is for some of us to see it. I hope I’ve helped some others to see it as well; I know it was totally opaque to ME until, well, right now.

 

I see that STR and CON are more like an Elemental Control than I realized, or than others here realize or acknowledge. I’m STILL not convinced they’re “just like an Elemental Control.”

 

Hm, I wonder what it means that Elemental Controls were one of the hardest concepts for me to grasp in the system (more so even than Variable Power Pools) and that I’ve never exactly been crazy about them?

 

Perhaps another viable approach to explore would be saying that figured characteristics can’t be “sold down” at the same rate that they are “bought up.”

 

maybe its just the cost of Energy Blast that's too high.

 

Absolutely! Well, it’s not “just” the cost of Energy Blast that needs adjusting, but the “Normal Limitation” that’s already part of Hand to Hand Normal Attack should be on Energy Blast too. And I think possibly it should be raised to -1 as well. If Energy Blast were more reasonably costed, we wouldn’t have the endless complaints about Killing Attacks being “too cheap” because they cost the same per Damage Class but are obviously more effective.

 

That's a long-time controversey, and I don't like the solution, either. I'd like to know what the power does if I 'buy off' that limitation.

 

It becomes a Killing Attack. See above.

 

this conversation has however done one thing for me' date=' it has made me question the appropriateness of being allowed to sell back Figured characteristics[/quote']

 

It hasn’t made me question that at all. It HAS made me question the appropriateness of selling them back at “full value.” If, when the rule was imposed “only sell back one” they had instead ruled “selling back figured characteristics gained from primary characteristics only nets you half the cost of having bought the figured characteristic separately” then we may not have been HAVING this conversation. And the “Elemental Control” comparison may have been more obvious.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is still wondering what constitutes "stratospheric" constitution....

[JmOz]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Yes I am aware that is the reason for the limited sell back rule exists, however, and the point I was making is that while you can save points, you can not actualy get more points from it, mainly because of that rule, in otherwords, you could get a discount, but not a profit, thus not really a negative cost.

 

"Just like an EC" is to strong, they are similar, not exactly alike. The Difference is the amount of discount & the flexability

 

things I would be in favor of is making the "sell back" rate equal to 1/4 the normal cost & droping the one characteristic sell back rule (ONLY if the 1/4 sell back is accepted)

[Opal]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

I see that STR and CON are more like an Elemental Control than I realized' date=' or than others here realize or acknowledge. I’m STILL not convinced they’re “just like an Elemental Control.” [/quote']Maybe not 'just' like, but similar in concept. An EC bundles some closely related powers for a discount. Figured characteristics come with a deeper discount, but they're always exactly the same characteristics in exactly the same porportions.

 

Perhaps another viable approach to explore would be saying that figured characteristics can’t be “sold down” at the same rate that they are “bought up.”

That could be a reasonable aproach. Of course, if you're already planning on raising several secondary characteristics, you're still 'getting them back' at full price by buying up the apropriate primary stat. But systematic 'abuse' (by selling back the one most valueable figured stat - Stun, in the case of STR) would be further lessened.

 

 

Absolutely! Well, it’s not “just” the cost of Energy Blast that needs adjusting, but the “Normal Limitation” that’s already part of Hand to Hand Normal Attack should be on Energy Blast too. And I think possibly it should be raised to -1 as well. If Energy Blast were more reasonably costed, we wouldn’t have the endless complaints about Killing Attacks being “too cheap” because they cost the same per Damage Class but are obviously more effective.

I'd hate to make KA the benchmark attack power. If it's too strong, make it more expensive, or make it less powerful. Hero was originally concieved for Champions! and, in that genre, high resistant defenses are common and killing is generally frowned upon. KAs really aren't that great, unless you're attracted to the STN Lotto.

 

I 'nerf' KAs a bit by aplying the STN multiplier to the BOD that gets through - makes the 'bullet bouncing hero' very easy to build, and weakens KAs considerably. FWIW.

 

It becomes a Killing Attack. See above.

Thanks. I don't like it, either, but thanks. What I can't get around is the costing of RKA and HKA. If they can have the same cost, then EB and HA should be able to have the same cost.

 

 

If, when the rule was imposed “only sell back one” they had instead ruled “selling back figured characteristics gained from primary characteristics only nets you half the cost of having bought the figured characteristic separately” then we may not have been HAVING this conversation. And the “Elemental Control” comparison may have been more obvious.

 

If you halved the sell-back of figured stats, selling back all your figured stats from STR would net about the same as selling back the STN, now (both net you more than taking the 'no figured char' lim).

[Tonio]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

What I can't get around is the costing of RKA and HKA. If they can have the same cost' date=' then EB and HA should be able to have the same cost.[/quote']

 

Yup. The reason they can't is ... ta-da, STR! Costing HA at 5pts per d6 makes it useless, since you can just buy STR for that cost and get oodles of extra goodness. Which should, again, tell us something about the cost of STR. A PART of STR is correctly costed at 1:1, and that's the part that corresponds to HA, the damage part, what I called "explosive strength" earlier. By "explosive strength" I mean strength you can apply in a very short period of time (like punching). "Slow strength" is strength you can apply over a longer period of time (like lifting something).

[Lucius]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

I'd hate to make KA the benchmark attack power. If it's too strong, make it more expensive, or make it less powerful.

 

I used to think that. I thought it for years, in fact. Arguments about it have gone round and round on these boards. So my current position that the simplest, easiest, and least destructive solution is to accept the "fix" that the Rules as Written (current regime) already partially accepts, and expand it to Energy Blast as well, is one that I've only come to after much deliberation and discussion. Almost reluctantly I might say, as I was very attached to my own solution, to treat Killing as an "Addervantage" which is basically what Damage Resistance is.

 

The fact that such a solution (giving Energy Blast as well the "Normal" limitation, and perhaps making it -1 as the Martial Arts rules suggest it should be) ALSO addresses the issue of the cost of STR is one of the reasons I support it. Also what makes it even vaguely on-topic here.

 

Hero was originally concieved for Champions!

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

HERO SYSTEM IS NOT JUST CHAMPIONS!

 

and, in that genre, high resistant defenses are common and killing is generally frowned upon.

 

Who said anything about killing? I'm talking about Killing Attacks.

 

Thanks. I don't like it, either, but thanks. What I can't get around is the costing of RKA and HKA. If they can have the same cost, then EB and HA should be able to have the same cost.

 

I agree, and that's exactly what I'm proposing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

 

Just as an observation.

 

Characteristics are a funny grab bag of things. They have:

game mechanical counts (STUN, BODY, END with REC thrown in here as a related mechanism),

an action regulator (SPD - how many actions you can perform in a turn),

combat functions (PD, ED, CON, DEX - for combat value stuff, EGO & INT for ego combat values),

Skill modifiers (most primaries),

Game effect (STR).

 

STR is the only one with a game effect and thus has these knock on effects with the other powers.

 

They really are a grab bag of things rather than a group of like things....

 

 

Doc