Double The Hero Excitement!

[Cardinal]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

I have been looking for the announcements... Are there any threads that have the official announcement?

[Tom Carman]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

No' date=' they actually said it wouldn't have the HERO System in it. It's a fact [/quote']

 

Well, that's a shame. The Champions Universe was never very interesting to me; the GMs I played with always had home-brew worlds that sometimes featured some organization name from the CU. I like a MMORPG with sandbox elements and a high degree of customization. City of Heroes was originally supposed to be more like that, I've heard. Still level-based with power-sets, but with no archetype limiting which sets you could choose; the general power pools are a vestige of that design. I believe that plan foundered on the usual min-maxing munchkin issue.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

I can't believe they SOLD the IP instead of licensing it like they should have.

 

Oh, this is going to get depressing. DoJ is going to have to pay through the nose every quarter to shore up an MMORPG that nobody wants.

 

Forget 6th edition in '09, they'll be lucky to see Q4 of '08.

 

Apparently, licensing the IP was never on the table. And incidentally, DoJ has a free license in perpetuity to produce Champions supplements (along with numerous clauses that deal with things like Cryptic going out of business) and will be getting free artwork from Cryptic's artists to use in those supplements. As Steve mentioned, if they need quality art that the Cryptic artists can't provide (because they're not working on that part of the Champions Universe yet), they can use the money saved by having the free artwork to commission similar quality art. So, I don't see where DoJ will be paying through the nose.

 

And why do you say nobody wants the MMORPG? Personally, I'm looking forward to it.

 

But overall, I think your post is rather insulting to Steve and Darren and the other Hero partners when you insist that they must have made a stupid deal.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Well' date=' that's a shame. The Champions Universe was never very interesting to me; the GMs I played with always had home-brew worlds that [u']sometimes[/u] featured some organization name from the CU. I like a MMORPG with sandbox elements and a high degree of customization. City of Heroes was originally supposed to be more like that, I've heard. Still level-based with power-sets, but with no archetype limiting which sets you could choose; the general power pools are a vestige of that design. I believe that plan foundered on the usual min-maxing munchkin issue.

 

Apparently, Champions Online will have a large degree of customization. The impression I've gotten is that there will be classes of some sort but all powers will be available to all classes with the cost of the power differing by class. This is from the 6 page Champions Online preview in the March issue of Game Informer.

 

There really is no way you could implement the full flexibility of the Hero System in a MMO and keep things balanced.

[Vann the Red]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

And the biggest risk in character development for an MMOG is to allow players to doom themselves in character creation. So, customization has to be limited.

 

VtR

[GamePhil]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

No' date=' they actually said it wouldn't have the HERO System in it. It's a fact [/quote']

 

I'm sorry, I was being picky both times but only said it the first. I was trying to point out that plans change: what they say right now may not be what it turns out to be, so it may be closer to HERO by the time they get done. Sorry for being unclear.

 

Nevertheless, it's a step closer to HERO from what I've seen: there are character classes, for example, but they can buy anything, they just steer you towards certain things by changing the costs. Not my dream of HERO in a computer game, but we get there by small steps and inducting the average populace.

[Susano]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

The odd thing is that somehow I can't get to page 17 of this thread. Either something's wrong with the code, or I have to post in order to be able to see it. Weird.

 

Yes! Something IS wrong with the counting code. It told me there was a page 17, even though it was really at the bottom of page 16. Please fix, o mighty ones, that I might be confused no longer.

 

It happens in various threads. For example, right now I see 18 pages, but if I select page 18, I come back to this page and your post. Some sort of software bug is my guess.

[GamePhil]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

And the biggest risk in character development for an MMOG is to allow players to doom themselves in character creation. So, customization has to be limited.

 

VtR

 

Absolutely true, but that's actually true in regular Champions games as well. One person can be very good at building characters and leave everyone else behind, it's just easier to fix because you have a human GM (and because the players aren't paying to have a good time, of course). It might be cool if the abilities for various characters are ultimately built using the HERO system, though.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Yeah' date=' you're right. It's not there anymore. The funny thing is, the website was down last night from about 10:30 to 12:00 (at last from what I saw), but at 12:05 I checked the website and it worked. It had a new layout and everything, so I started looking at all the new stuff. Under About Champions, on the very bottom, was the announcement that they teamed up with some video game company and sold the Champions IP to them to make an MMORPG using the characters, but not the system. I even quoted from it in an earlier post, but that too got deleted.[/quote']

 

I actually saw yer quote... I think...

[archermoo]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

No' date=' they actually said it wouldn't have the HERO System in it. It's a fact [/quote']

 

Well, they said the game was Champions Online not Hero Online. They also mentioned that there was the possibility that the game could be a good enough representation that they would allow Cryptic to call it Hero Online, or something to that effect. At least some of the guys at Cryptic (including some of those in charge) are big HERO and Champions fans. I think they are going to honestly do whatever they can to get the game as close to the HERO System as they can within the limitations of an MMORPG. Keep the flavour of the system even if they can't keep all the exact details.

 

HERO also plans to at some point release a book that would allow you to convert your CO character into an actual HERO character.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Just to tag on what Archermoo said and to add a little more...

 

Steve and Darren had some funny stories about how one perspective Cryptic employee got a job based on his knowledge of the Hero System. Pretty funny.

 

The latest issue of Game Informer (Issue 179, March 2008) has a 6 page spread on Champions Online. This was passed out at DunDraCon. The Game Developers Conference (GDC) is this week in San Jose. G4 has coverage of the event so set your TiVos and hope for a mention of the Champions Online game.

 

It appears from the article that it will run on PC or Xbox 360 so save up your cash if you need a PC upgrade or a new console. I know I will be saving up my cash.

 

My general thoughts...wow. What a fantastic opportunity for Hero and for us loyal fans. This is spectacular news. If this thing hits the streets (i.e. note how John intentionally does not get his hopes up having his issue of Computer Gaming World from April 1992 in his hands as well as the vaporware award from the previously announced Champions computer game) it will mean a lot of new Hero players. This means better books and maybe even more books for us loyal fans. As Steve put it in the meeting we also get to be the "belles of the ball" to introduce new players to this fantastic game.

 

Be a Hero!!! First the internet then the world!!!!

[Spence]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Another point which may have already been brought up. I believe they sold the Champions IP, not the Hero System itself or any of the other settings.

 

If the floor fell out it would only affect around 14-15 direct Champs books. And many of them would only need to edit out a few references with name changes. Things like Villainy Amok and the Databases. Sure CKC, MC and such would have to be replaced. But I use HC anyway and already own the others. Plus I would welcome another large volume of villains like CKC

 

I'm just saying.

 

But in the end this can only be a good thing IMO. Since they retained the P&P RPG that is not really threatened, plus whether we like it or not, electronic gaming is here and is BIG. In a world where many gamers shop by name recognition, Hero is many times skipped over because the new or casual gamer has only heard of D&D. Once this happens, Champions will suddenly become one of the names noticed by more of the casual browsers.

 

In the end, DOJ has been very steady and cautious through-out their existence and has seen several other companies fold for various reasons. I don’t think they would have jumped without thoroughly checking the landing site.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

But in the end this can only be a good thing IMO. Since they retained the P&P RPG that is not really threatened' date=' plus whether we like it or not, electronic gaming is here and is BIG. In a world where many gamers shop by name recognition, Hero is many times skipped over because the new or casual gamer has only heard of D&D. Once this happens, Champions will suddenly become one of the names noticed by more of the casual browsers.[/quote']This is also one area where CO and HERO gets to one-up City of Heroes, since the CoH P&P RPG faded to vapor.

 

Now we just need to design a Champions CCG...

[lemming]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

And while details are unclear as they generally are when talking about contracts and such, DOJ get first refusal on if Cryptic flames out and the IP is available.

 

From described at Monday's meeting, pretty nice deal and the reasons were reasonable.

 

Cryptic is announcing Wednesday, at which point, more data will become available to us.

[GamePhil]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Now we just need to design a Champions CCG...

 

Already have a bunch of cards for it, if you're willing to start with the forum-based ones.

[maidenforce19]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Well, they said the game was Champions Online not Hero Online. They also mentioned that there was the possibility that the game could be a good enough representation that they would allow Cryptic to call it Hero Online, or something to that effect. At least some of the guys at Cryptic (including some of those in charge) are big HERO and Champions fans. I think they are going to honestly do whatever they can to get the game as close to the HERO System as they can within the limitations of an MMORPG. Keep the flavour of the system even if they can't keep all the exact details.

 

HERO also plans to at some point release a book that would allow you to convert your CO character into an actual HERO character.

 

How in the world could you possibly convert the HERO System (as well as any RPG system) to an animated video game?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

How in the world could you possibly convert the HERO System (as well as any RPG system) to an animated video game?

Very carefully.

[GamePhil]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

How in the world could you possibly convert the HERO System (as well as any RPG system) to an animated video game?

 

Well, depends on what you want. All computer games have an underlying set of rules, even if the only character rules are having Hit Points and Armor and nothing else. CRPGs generally have fairly involved rules: it's not just a matter of lining up and swinging, but once you do so, you have to hit and "roll" damage and so on just like in an RPG (what people call "ftf", "tabletop", or "P&P" RPGs came first, dang it, so I just call them RPGs). So that underlying system can be converted, and if it is, so can some of the character generation rules.

 

Not all of them, that would probably be nightmarish both for the programmer and most players (we'd have something of an advantage, there), but it could be done.

[maidenforce19]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

Well, depends on what you want. All computer games have an underlying set of rules, even if the only character rules are having Hit Points and Armor and nothing else. CRPGs generally have fairly involved rules: it's not just a matter of lining up and swinging, but once you do so, you have to hit and "roll" damage and so on just like in an RPG (what people call "ftf", "tabletop", or "P&P" RPGs came first, dang it, so I just call them RPGs). So that underlying system can be converted, and if it is, so can some of the character generation rules.

 

Not all of them, that would probably be nightmarish both for the programmer and most players (we'd have something of an advantage, there), but it could be done.

 

No, it couldn't be done. No video game ever can create what you create. True, it could be possible that the base rules could be converted to a video game (just as D&D was for Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate), but that's based on a campaign set forth by the developer. For an MMORPG, it has way more content, but still is limited to what the developers decide to put in the game. Even games with editors, like Neverwinter Nights, couldn't do such a thing. What if I wanted a HERO game set in the Neanderthal age, but with high technology and space travel? Something radical like that that is easily available to make in any pen&paper game, and it doesn't even have to be radical. It's impossible to put that into a game. Sure, if you yourself were a game designer/developer, you could put in what you want as long as you had the skill/patience to do it. And even in the end it wouldn't be near as good as the pen & paper version. Even if it did, which is impossible, it wouldn't be as fun as the experience of sitting down with a group of friends, or even on a chat/online-based game, and roleplaying like we're all used to. Pen & paper RPGs are known for their extreme set of customizable tools, mostly to create anything you want. A video game just can't do that. It can't even come close.

[GamePhil]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

No' date=' it couldn't be done.[/quote']

 

You said HERO System, and I answered that, but thanks for the clarification since that's clearly not what you actually meant.

[maidenforce19]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

You said HERO System' date=' and I answered that, but thanks for the clarification since that's clearly not what you actually meant.[/quote']

 

Oh, well yeah the actual system (as I said above) could be converted with a lot of time and effort, but even then it might not be perfect. But I just meant everything in general that you experience in role-playing games. That's why there are so many RPG video games on the market, because we rely on the developers to make a new story (campaign) for us to play in with their characters (Heroes) that are already pre-made and usually have a set-path, or a linear set of a few paths.

[maidenforce19]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

By the way, I just got the new issue of Game Informer in the mail and read the article on Champions Online. If you want to read more about it (for the time being, at least), I suggest you buy this magazine (it also has other great content in case you wondering whether Champions Online was the only interesting thing in it). They said it would come out in 2009, near the release of 6th edition I'm guessing. It showed screens of some of the characters and looks pretty neat as it's own game. It's coming out for both the PC and the 360 (obviously the PC is the superior system to get it for) and there is cross-platform play for both. This was a continuation of Marvel Online which, sadly, got canceled (I would have much rather had Marvel Online than Champions Online, but that's just me. I think that Champions is a weird world to use because most of the mainstream probably doesn't know about it and the characters aren't as exciting as name-brand ones.).

[archermoo]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

This was a continuation of Marvel Online which' date=' sadly, got canceled [/quote']

 

My understanding from reading the article was that all of the work they had done on Marvel Online was owned by Marvel. So Champions Online might build on the experience, much in the same way it will build on their experience with CoH, but that it won't be building directly on the coding they did for Marvel Online.

[maidenforce19]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

My understanding from reading the article was that all of the work they had done on Marvel Online was owned by Marvel. So Champions Online might build on the experience' date=' much in the same way it will build on their experience with CoH, but that it won't be building directly on the coding they did for Marvel Online.[/quote']

 

Oh, well something along those lines.

[gojira]

Re: Double The Hero Excitement!

 

My understanding from reading the article was that all of the work they had done on Marvel Online was owned by Marvel. So Champions Online might build on the experience' date=' much in the same way it will build on their experience with CoH, but that it won't be building directly on the coding they did for Marvel Online.[/quote']

 

Huh. Interesting. This is not what I would have guessed, but if Marvel funded them for the project I can certainly see that they would want to own the results. I would have assumed that the venture was "joint" and each party would have had a interest in the result.