Characteristics in an EC

[JmOz]

Anyone having allowed it? Weaknesses, strengths? Thinking it would make ALOT of sense for a speedster I am working on, as his Dex/Speed should be drained simultaniously with his running (and to a lesser extent his FF power)

 

Thoughts...

 

I am thinking aout just placing a -1/4 lim on drain one, drain all,,,

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Allowing Characteristics other than those granted from powers such as Growth are very problematic. Your asking for trouble as a G.M.

[nexus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I allow it but it it has to close fit the concept and they fall under my rules for Drains vs ECs It is potentially easy to abuse to bears watching.

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I allow it but it it has to close fit the concept and they fall under my rules for Drains vs ECs It is potentially easy to abuse to bears watching.

 

What are your rules about Drains vs EC's?

[nexus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

What are your rules about Drains vs EC's?

 

Elemental controls are treated as one power for the purpose of Adjustment powers.

 

For example if a mutant has a "Body of Steel" Elemental Control which contains Armor and Strength and it's hit by a drain the could effect mutant powers one a a time his entire EC can be targeted as one power.

[nexus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

What are your rules about Drains vs EC's?

 

Elemental controls are treated as one power for the purpose of Adjustment powers.

 

For example if a mutant has a "Body of Steel" Elemental Control which contains Armor and Strength and it's hit by a drain the could effect mutant powers one a a time his entire EC can be targeted as one power. Generally, I ask that Characteristics in an EC take "No Figured characteristics" too but not all the time.

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Elemental controls are treated as one power for the purpose of Adjustment powers.

 

For example if a mutant has a "Body of Steel" Elemental Control which contains Armor and Strength and it's hit by a drain the could effect mutant powers one a a time his entire EC can be targeted as one power.

 

Coolness, that is nicer (to the receipint of the drain) than mine is actualy (I use the base rules from 5th)

[Zed-F]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Definitely open to abuse. But then, what isn't. Still, I wouldn't allow characteristics in an EC without a very compelling reason. Characteristics in a MP or VPP I have a bit less trouble with but it still bears watching.

[Comic]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Once made the mistake of building a character with combat skill levels in an EC...

 

*shudder*

 

Characteristics are only marginally less problematic.

 

While some players do it, and some GMs allow it, and sometimes the results are fine, it's one of the things I'll do my best to avoid for my characters, based on that one experience.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

As a GM, I Just Say No to Characteristics in Elemental Controls. Yes, there are times when it seems to make sense. But then you suddenly find that it makes sense for tons of different SFX, and the next thing you know, you've got a campaign full of characters with half their CHAs in ECs.

 

IMO, if you or other players in your group are considering doing the CHAs-In-ECs bit, it's a sign that you're not happy with the starting points allowed to characters. (Not that the power levels need to go up, necessarily... just the starting points.)

 

As a GM, I'd rather raise the campaign's starting points by 50, or even 100 points if people are feeling the crunch, rather than start messing around with CHAs in ECs.

[Gideon]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

For the most part I say no stats in an EC.

 

My reason is simple: The book says that you cannot buy a power in an EC unless it costs end.

 

Therefore, my one exception is if you buy a stat (say +5 Dex) with an end cost. So you can do it, but it's going to cost you 1 end a phase.

 

Oh, and I don't allow "costs end only to activate" on stats in an EC.

[Alibear]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I would allow extra dex (with no figured characteristcs lim) and extra speed if they cost end to use. Sure.

[Shaft]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I'm in total agreement with Gideon.

 

Allowing Stats in an EC circumvents the costs. PCs can come up with a variety of reasons to buy their attributes through an EC and link it to the effect. A Speedster will start off just raising his DEX and SPD, then state that the stress of superspeed on his body augments his STR, CON and BODY. The same process alows his mind to process information faster and put extra INT in the EC. Then he'll say that his boosted time rate gives him better focusing abilities, and use that to raise his EGO, and then he'll use the constant display of his speed powers as an excuse to boost his PRE. And then just to sweep through all the primary attirbutes, he'll say that the superspeed gives him extra time to make himself pretty in the morning and raise his COM.

 

Meanwhile, as they see how awesome the Speedster is, all the other PCs start thinking about how to justify buying their attributes through an EC...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Or to put an even finer point on it...

 

The CHAs you typically see people wanting to put in ECs are STR, DEX, and SPD. STR and DEX are already the two most cost-effective things you can buy in the game system in terms of the benefits they provide for their cost. Each point of SPD probably contributes more to a character's overall impact on the game than 10 points spent virtually anywhere else.

 

If anything, STR, DEX, and SPD should be more expensive... not less.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I consider the argument that many characteristics are already frameworks of their own, providing access to several abilities which, purchased independently, would cost more, often significantly more, to be quite persuasive. And you can't put a framework in a framework.

 

"Must cost END without GM permission" doesn't keep STR out of an EC. Mind you, I'm not a big fan of the "must either cost END or have reduced END advantage" restriction on EC's as it creates a level of arbitrariness I dislike (but that's another topic).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I agree, bears watching

 

 

Especially if your EC is "God of Myth and Lore" or "Solar Powered Alien".

 

Of course if EVERYONE is on that level and using the rules that way, it will probably balance in the end. But pity the fool that isn't taking advantage of the savings.... unless those EC's get drained a LOT...

[nexus]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Personally, I'm pretty restrictive on what I'll allow as an EC so it hasn't been a big issue for me but yes, it's something that if you allow it. It should be watched closely. OTOH, many things in Hero are like that.

[Cardinal]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

The CHAs you typically see people wanting to put in ECs are STR, DEX, and SPD. STR and DEX are already the two most cost-effective things you can buy in the game system in terms of the benefits they provide for their cost. Each point of SPD probably contributes more to a character's overall impact on the game than 10 points spent virtually anywhere else.

 

If anything, STR, DEX, and SPD should be more expensive... not less.

 

It's too bad there aren't any threads dissecting this topic in more depth. That would be interesting to read.

 

With that said, I agree with Derek's point here. Stats in ECs are not necessary and open the danger of munchkin wars.

 

I also agree with LL's point about the END cost rule for ECs being arbitrary. But, as he said, that is a topic for another thread.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I've seen it twice.

Once in a standard campaign - and it broke the game nicely.

Once in a high powered campaign, and it didn't have any adverse effects.

 

Both times the Characteristics were DEX and SPD.

 

So I would say, it's possible it won't be abusive but it depends heavily on the Players and style of Campaign you're in/running. I'd be very very careful of it, leaning towards denial.

[Shaft]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

"Must cost END without GM permission" doesn't keep STR out of an EC.

 

STR is the only characteristic allowed in an EC, but must be bought with the "no figured characteristics" limitation.

[gmurie]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I'd only allow it for STR as a temporary boost, or that has some sort of limitation not shared by the base STR, and it's always got to be No Figured Characteristics. All that and it's got to fit a theme that's more interesting than "Really Strong" or "Speedster".

 

I might allow an "Adrenaline Overdrive" EC with boosts to STR and SPD for example, but there'd have to be some hefty limits on them like an Enraged Side Effect as well as No Figured on the STR.

 

It's pretty easy to separate out those players who are trying to cram Stats into an EC because they're munchkins and those players who are just trying to work a theme.

[Gideon]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

STR is the only characteristic allowed in an EC

I disagree. IMO a constant power that is in an EC must cost end to have active not simply to use. Thats what I meant earlier. I will only allow STR in an EC if you have to "activate" the STR and pay end to have it active as well as paying the normal end to use it.

 

but must be bought with the "no figured characteristics" limitation.

You are right, and I realized I forgot to mention that I also impose the No Figured Characteristics lim on any characteristics in an EC.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

No Characteristics in Elemental Controls, period.

 

IMOHO

 

QM

[GamePhil]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

I allowed it once for STR, but I did not allow it to give Figured Characteristics, nor did I allow it to take the No Figured Characteristics Limitation (this was 4th Edition, before Steve's clarification of the rule on that). The player quickly gave up on it and bought it normally. I actually thought it was a pretty good deal.

 

With the guidelines that EC's now work under, Characteristics in EC's might be manageable. They get drained along with any other Power, can't add to Figured Characteristics, and really, STR is the only one that doesn't need GM's permission (any more than anything else, that is). STR in an EC couldn't be used in MPA's with other Powers in it (I might not allow it to be used with Martial Attacks, either, but I'm prone to that, anyway).

 

I might be inclined to allow END in one. Why should END Reserves get all the cost breaks? Possibly Recovery, especially if it only affected END.

 

Probably never PD or ED, buy a non-resistant Force Field.

 

The others? Convince me that your EC conception is compelling enough, that it is logical to have the Characteristic drained with all of the other Powers, and that I should ignore the END thing, and sure. This is unlikely, but I don't want to discount someone having something REALLY cool that I can't think of a better way to build. Hey, it could happen.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Characteristics in an EC

 

Elemental controls are treated as one power for the purpose of Adjustment powers.

 

For example if a mutant has a "Body of Steel" Elemental Control which contains Armor and Strength and it's hit by a drain the could effect mutant powers one a a time his entire EC can be targeted as one power. Generally, I ask that Characteristics in an EC take "No Figured characteristics" too but not all the time.

 

 

I use almost the same rules.