Money in Fantasy Setting

[Fitz]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

The down-side to no longer having 1, 2 or 5c coins around here in NZ is that there's no really cheap source of figure bases any more. Washers are OK, but they have that hole in the middle, and they all cost more than 1 or 2 cents each.

 

On a RPG-related note: in one of the oldest campaigns I play in (infrequently these days, alas) the GM at one point gave us access to a hoard large enough that money (or rather, the lack of money) became irrelevant in the campaign thereafter. The only issue around money was how to protect the vast piles of coin and jewels from the drepredations of thieves, but a bunch of PCs with access to magic and effectively unlimited financial resources can make thievery a very, very difficult proposition. Players are sneaky.

 

Anyway, the point here is that money is no longer a character motivator in that campaign, which does tend to make things a little more difficult for the GM, but only a little -- after all, everyone is playing the game to have fun, not to retire in obscene luxury.

[Korvar]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Well it does in the sense that a penny only has to be minted once (for a cost of more than one cent)' date=' but can then be used for many, many transactions, totalling far more than it cost to mint.[/quote']

 

Yes. What the government is paying the mint for is not a penny's amount of money, but for the ability for that penny to circulate around the economy - it's the movement of the money that the government wants (and pays for), rather than the money itself.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Yes. What the government is paying the mint for is not a penny's amount of money' date=' but for the ability for that penny to circulate around the economy - it's the movement of the money that the government wants (and pays for), rather than the money itself.[/quote']

 

Right, but by minting a coin that costs more to make than its face value, you are essentially taking money (resources) out of circulation! It really doesn't make sense, economically, to use items as trade tokens which cost more than the resource they denote: which is why periodically, countries remove coins from circulation that fall into that category.

 

cheers, Mark

[Alcamtar]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Historically, money was not abstract units but a physical quantity of precious etal. A shilling represented 1/20 of a pound of silver. You could mint a "brass shilling" but it would not have the same value, because it is not made of silver. You could mint a shilling of 50% silver 50% brass, and it would be worth less than a silver shilling.

 

Many coins did not even have a face value; and the face value was only trusted if the issuing government was trusted. If the government was known for issuing low-purity coins, then those coins might only be accepted at 90% of face value regardless of how they were stamped.

 

Governments issued coins partly to provide a currency to encourage trade, but ultimately the government issued coins to buy stuff, not unlike a company selling stock to raise cash. Governments do not just give away cash to get it out into the economy. For example to finance a war the government needs weapons and soldiers; so it takes gold from the treasury, mints coins, and "issues" those coins to hire soldiers and buy swords.

 

Ideally the metal in the coins equals their "face value". If the government uses too much metal to mint the coins, then it has overpaid for the services it is buying. When this happens the public soon figures it out, accepts the coins but then melts them to make a profit. Those coins are unrecoverable, through a government may recall what it can and re-mint them at a corrected value.

 

Sometimes a government is short on funds, so it mints coins with lower purity and passes them off to an unsuspecting public. In the short term this means the government gets to buy its goods and services as a discount, but once the public figures this out, it raises prices to compensate and you get inflation. (Rome did this over and over again to finance wars.) A government can "make money" by buying 10,000 coins, diluting the alloy, and re-issuing 11,000 coins at the same nominal face value. This always results in inflation and loss of confidence in the money, as well as loss of confidence and respect in the government. So it is risky. Still governments are greedy and this was a common tactic.

 

If two countries issue "gold florins" of the same size and weight, but one coinage is high purity and the other is lower purity, the public will favor the high purity coinage and it will have a greater "buying power" even though the coinages both have the same "face value".

 

This is all way too complex to simulate in a game of course, but you could toss it in here or there as a plot element. (Those gold pieces you just received from that oily merchant? They're only worth 90% of their value around here. You've been had!)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

On a RPG-related note: in one of the oldest campaigns I play in (infrequently these days' date=' alas) the GM at one point gave us access to a hoard large enough that money (or rather, the lack of money) became irrelevant in the campaign thereafter. The only issue around money was how to protect the vast piles of coin and jewels from the drepredations of thieves, but a bunch of PCs with access to magic and effectively unlimited financial resources can make thievery a very, very difficult proposition. Players are [i']sneaky[/i].

 

Let me guess...you built a labyrinth, peppered it with bizarre traps, filled it with hideous mosnters of all dexcription and left the treasure (behind numerous secret doors) at the bottom of this construct. Let's call it a "dungeon".

[Ternaugh]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Let me guess...you built a labyrinth' date=' peppered it with bizarre traps, filled it with hideous mosnters of all dexcription and left the treasure (behind numerous secret doors) at the bottom of this construct. Let's call it a "dungeon". [/quote']

 

Well, actually, in one of my games, the actual dungeon construction was performed by a company of skilled artisans. The PCs ended up on an adventure that happened to be on their "showroom floor" after hours. It was an OtherRealm™ adventure which included many classic conceits from the old games, mixed with magitech (like magic item vending machines, that took coins weighing 1/10 of a pound). The Storm Mage of the party was quite happy to receive a mylar balloon in the shape of the creature of their logo, which went with their motto, "Beauty is in the Eye". He tied the balloon to his staff, and used it in place of the "sprite ribbon" in the old Hero 4th/FH 2 spell college writeups.

 

JoeG

[Ed Coll]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Something to think about: in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, if the local government didn't issue enough small-amount coins, merchants would make their own "tokens," which could be made out of nearly anything: leather, wood, bone, etc.

 

Usually, only the merchant who made the token would honor them in purchases, but sometimes a merchant would accept another merchant's tokens. Usually this was done by arrangement; a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" deal.

 

That would be something interesting for your PC's to find; a mound of small wooden squares with the name of a merchant from the nearest city on them.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Let me guess...you built a labyrinth' date=' peppered it with bizarre traps, filled it with hideous mosnters of all dexcription and left the treasure (behind numerous secret doors) at the bottom of this construct. Let's call it a "dungeon". [/quote']

 

Fitz and I played in a game long ago, where the PCs had reached the point that they had their own castles and stacks of loot. However, we were often away from home adventuring. So yes, I buried my loot in a tunnel complex under the castle, protected by spells, traps and monsters. Occasionally, when we encountered a particularly nasty monster, I'd go out of my way to try and capture it and take it home, rather than just killing it.

 

cheers, Mark

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

It's fantasy! Whatever you want to use for money is OK. Sheesh. It's not re-creation, it's recreation.

[Ed Coll]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

It's fantasy! Whatever you want to use for money is OK. Sheesh. It's not re-creation' date=' it's recreation.[/quote']

 

Some people like something that sounds likely. Some don't care. Don't get done on people for wanting more "likely" than you do. OK?

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

I'm not getting "done" on anyone. I just don't see the point.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

I'm not getting "done" on anyone. I just don't see the point.

 

some people do not enjoy a game which is completely economically impossible. we like our fantasy taste with a hint of real, or to mix metaphors a bit, something realistic gives some people something to hang their hat on when a dragon is rampaging through the country side. not everyone can accept the flagrant unreality that is DnD or others of similar genre.

[Curufea]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

some people do not enjoy a game which is completely economically impossible. we like our fantasy taste with a hint of real' date=' or to mix metaphors a bit, something realistic gives some people something to hang their hat on when a dragon is rampaging through the country side. not everyone can accept the flagrant unreality that is DnD or others of similar genre.[/quote']

 

It tends to break the 4th wall and make the game un-immersive - if you suddenly in the middle of a game realise "that just can't work" or if you can't figure out how to do something in the game world because it is so fantastically unrealistic you have no idea how it works.

 

Mind you there are also players that can throw themselves into unrealism and play fantasy just like folk play Toon or Paranoia. There are many kinds of players.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

It tends to break the 4th wall and make the game un-immersive - if you suddenly in the middle of a game realise "that just can't work" or if you can't figure out how to do something in the game world because it is so fantastically unrealistic you have no idea how it works.

 

[Cancer]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

You know the expression about killing catgirls when you talk real physics in comic books? Well, you kill whole populations of 'em when you discuss economics in FRPG worlds.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

You know the expression about killing catgirls when you talk real physics in comic books? Well' date=' you kill whole populations of 'em when you discuss economics in FRPG worlds.[/quote']

 

Not if the world's set up right to start with. The catgirl thing may be why many people feel it's important to do it right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

It tends to break the 4th wall and make the game un-immersive - if you suddenly in the middle of a game realise "that just can't work" or if you can't figure out how to do something in the game world because it is so fantastically unrealistic you have no idea how it works.

 

Mind you there are also players that can throw themselves into unrealism and play fantasy just like folk play Toon or Paranoia. There are many kinds of players.

 

Many people don't believe facets of our real economy can work. The income tax system, for example, is unbelievable, in whole or in part, to many people.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Many people don't believe facets of our real economy can work. The income tax system' date=' for example, is unbelievable, in whole or in part, to many people.[/quote']

 

Generally speaking, the economy is magical mystery in and of itself, mostly running on belief and wishes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Generally speaking' date=' the economy is magical mystery in and of itself, mostly running on belief and wishes.[/quote']

 

My first-year econ professor explained the history of economics with each major theory preceded with "and then __________ happened, which wasn't possible under the old theories, so we needed new theories". For example, prior to the 1970's, economic theory held that high inflation and high unemployment were mutually exclusive.

 

I recall a campaign long ago when our PC's were transported to a world where coin values were reversed (copper held platinum's place, gold held silver's place, etc.). My larcenous PC immediately began purchasing worthless platinum, with the plan to return to our plane and swap it all for copper, then return here...

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

You know the expression about killing catgirls when you talk real physics in comic books? Well' date=' you kill whole populations of 'em when you discuss economics in FRPG worlds.[/quote']

 

Totally true!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

some people do not enjoy a game which is completely economically impossible. we like our fantasy taste with a hint of real' date=' or to mix metaphors a bit, something realistic gives some people something to hang their hat on when a dragon is rampaging through the country side. not everyone can accept the flagrant unreality that is DnD or others of similar genre.[/quote']

I think the word you're looking for is "verisimilitude." It's important for a game to have it's own internal logic, even moreso that for a work of fiction. To a certain extent, there will always be an element of figuring out how to "win" the game: how to slay the monster, avoid the trap, save the princess, expose the traitor, please the king, defend the castle, etc., and sometimes economics is part of that. If there's no logic to the economy of the game world, players will get frustrated when they try to do things that make sense and they don't work, while things that don't make sense do work.

 

You know the expression about killing catgirls when you talk real physics in comic books? Well' date=' you kill whole populations of 'em when you discuss economics in FRPG worlds.[/quote']

All the more reason to do so.

 

Physics and Economics are two very important sciences that everyone ought to have some basic understanding of, and yet, most people's eye glaze over at the mention of either word. As if they are impossible for mere mortals to comprehend.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

I'm reminded of the time our hapless GM thought he had outwitted us - after an arduous series of adventures we finally got the big treasure: which was almost all copper pieces. Millions of the little turd-colored things. He knew we couldn't carry very much away in our backpacks.

 

Alas for him.

 

I thought about the problem for a minute and then said "Akse and Qua. You need to head back to the city. Bring our galley and three large merchant ships back. The rest of you, come with me. We'll need to set up a defensive perimeter until they return with the fleet."

 

Man, we were sooooo rich. And we used that wealth to buy all sorts of magical gee-gaws, vastly increasing our power (Also a palace. And dancing girls). Which is why the GM needs to think about the economics of his game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

I'm reminded of the time our hapless GM thought he had outwitted us - after an arduous series of adventures we finally got the big treasure: which was almost all copper pieces. Millions of the little turd-colored things. He knew we couldn't carry very much away in our backpacks.

 

Alas for him.

 

I thought about the problem for a minute and then said "Akse and Qua. You need to head back to the city. Bring our galley and three large merchant ships back. The rest of you, come with me. We'll need to set up a defensive perimeter until they return with the fleet."

 

Man, we were sooooo rich. And we used that wealth to buy all sorts of magical gee-gaws, vastly increasing our power (Also a palace. And dancing girls). Which is why the GM needs to think about the economics of his game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Assuming the GM is ready for a huge influx of money into his game, I've always thought that the logistics of moving a massive treasure trove could make for a very interesting series of adventures.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Assuming the GM is ready for a huge influx of money into his game' date=' I've always thought that the logistics of moving a massive treasure trove could make for a very interesting series of adventures.[/quote']

 

I agree - but that particular GM didn't. Of course we shot ourselves in the foot, because that game collapsed soon after, but back them we didn't care: there were lots of GMs in our group and we just retired those characters and started another game

 

cheer, Mark

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

I've long thought that money - economics, entrepreneurialism, commerce, trade - would make a great basis for a fantasy game. Characters are essentially traveling merchants (with the necessary skills required for dangerous travel). They travel far and wide across the wonderous and fantastic world to faraway lands. They buy the exotic goods from these lands, bring them back home, and sell them at a great profit.

 

This is very much like the history of our own world. People made a lot of money by bringing back foreign goods: silk, spices, gold, furs, opium, gems, dyes, etc. In a fantasy world, the goods can be even more exotic, and the hazards one must brave can be even more exciting.

 

I remember seeing D&D books for 3.5 ed. called "Heroes of Horror" and "Heroes of Battle" about running campaigns around a particular type of setting. I thought "Heroes of Commerce" would make a good book, too.