Money in Fantasy Setting

[Spence]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Then the rules-lawyers started playing and (understandably' date=' wanting to make more money off the popularity of the game) rules were printed for just about everything. After a while it breaks down to who can memorize the most rules.[/quote']

 

QFT! (I like that abbreviation since I found out what it means)

 

It is also why I am looking forward to the 6th Ed. I believe that Hero was teetering on the brink and I have developed enough confidence in Steve & Company that they will recognize it and take steps....

[A_Pail_Rider]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Best campaign magic-wise I was ever in, magic items weren't for sale at all. You had to find someone who could make the thing you wanted, and arrange matters with her/him. It worked out great; once we got powerful(ish) we had stuff made for us, and that gave us a hell of an edge.

 

Oh, and the money in that campaign? A gold piece was worth ONE GRAM of gold. The coins were about 30% gold, so they were big enough to be useful (we never saw anything bigger that a one gp coin).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Best campaign magic-wise I was ever in' date=' magic items weren't for sale [i']at all[/i]. You had to find someone who could make the thing you wanted, and arrange matters with her/him. It worked out great; once we got powerful(ish) we had stuff made for us, and that gave us a hell of an edge.

 

So what happened when a person who had done so decided to offload such an item, or ditto the dispersal of all the items from previous years?

Oh, and the money in that campaign? A gold piece was worth ONE GRAM of gold. The coins were about 30% gold, so they were big enough to be useful (we never saw anything bigger that a one gp coin).

The value of money, like anything else, is only useful when measured relative to other things, primarily BUYING POWER. It really doesn't matter how you measure it, what you call it, what denominations it comes in, what its made of, or whose face is printed on it -- what matters is what can it get you and how universally is it accepted.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Best campaign magic-wise I was ever in' date=' magic items weren't for sale [i']at all[/i]. You had to find someone who could make the thing you wanted, and arrange matters with her/him. It worked out great; once we got powerful(ish) we had stuff made for us, and that gave us a hell of an edge.

 

Oh, and the money in that campaign? A gold piece was worth ONE GRAM of gold. The coins were about 30% gold, so they were big enough to be useful (we never saw anything bigger that a one gp coin).

 

Gold coins were exceedingly rare in my campaign. Typically, they were used when a Mage Seeker found an apprentice, and would pay "talent gold" to pay off any obligations. Another use was for the purchase of elite mercenaries from one of the Dwarven clans, who had a monopoly on the manufacture and use of cannon and muskets*. The most common gold coins were the gold Talents from the Pelash Bay region, an area that had three large trading cities and the headquarters of the Water College. The coins were about 5 grams (the weight of a US nickel), and had a metal content of about 70% gold and 30% copper, giving them a slight reddish cast. They were each worth about a year's labor for an apprentice.

 

JoeG

*Well, it was a monopoly at the beginning of the campaign, when their hit squads would "protect the secret". It wasn't so much near the end of the campaign, when their power was actively challenged.

[A_Pail_Rider]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

So what happened when a person who had done so decided to offload such an item' date=' or ditto the dispersal of all the items from previous years?[/quote']

All magic items are Personal Foci.

 

The value of money, like anything else, is only useful when measured relative to other things, primarily BUYING POWER. It really doesn't matter how you measure it, what you call it, what denominations it comes in, what its made of, or whose face is printed on it -- what matters is what can it get you and how universally is it accepted.

Yeah, but 1.6 oz coins are a ridiculous idea. Making them reasonably small helps with the ol' "Suspension of Disbelief."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

All magic items are Personal Foci.

Sure, that's a style of magic items, but it doesn't suit every one or model much source material well.

Yeah, but 1.6 oz coins are a ridiculous idea. Making them reasonably small helps with the ol' "Suspension of Disbelief."

 

My point is, it doesn't matter. Pick whatever works for a particular setting / region and it's all good. Secretly, its all make believe anyway.

[Korvar]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

So what happened when a person who had done so decided to offload such an item' date=' or ditto the dispersal of all the items from previous years?[/quote']

 

It could be like the market in fine art. Most items commissioned by wealthy families from skilled artisans, and are kept within that family as valuable heirlooms.

 

But those items that are sold would be through particular agents, through word of mouth. The agent would have a network of people who let him know what they're interested in, and a network of people who might want to offload these unique and expensive items.

 

There wouldn't be a "magic shoppe" where you can stroll in and browse through the racks of +1 swords looking for one that matches your vambraces. It would require knowing the right people to talk to, and moving in the right circles.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

It could be like the market in fine art. Most items commissioned by wealthy families from skilled artisans, and are kept within that family as valuable heirlooms.

 

But those items that are sold would be through particular agents, through word of mouth. The agent would have a network of people who let him know what they're interested in, and a network of people who might want to offload these unique and expensive items.

 

There wouldn't be a "magic shoppe" where you can stroll in and browse through the racks of +1 swords looking for one that matches your vambraces. It would require knowing the right people to talk to, and moving in the right circles.

 

I'm familiar with the concept of consignment and procurement, thanks. I was asking about the natural accrual of a surplus even under the poster's scenario, and his answer was the items are personal foci and thus non-transferable.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Yeah' date=' but 1.6 oz coins are a ridiculous idea. Making them reasonably small helps with the ol' "Suspension of Disbelief."[/quote']

Not necessarily. The German 1.03 oz Thaler was introduced in 1518 and was widely imitated throughout Europe and the New World: the Daalder, Daler, Dollar, Peso, Crown, and Krona all originated as copies of the Thaler. The Ruble was also standardized to ~1oz silver in 1704.

 

During the height of Thaler production (1500s) there were silver coins larger than thalers... some weighed more than a pound! There have also been at times gold coins of similiar size, as well as enormous copper coins, like the swedish copper plates (as large as 30 lb!)

 

The large thaler-sized silver coinage was the direct result of the discovery and exploitation of vast silver deposits, first in Germany and later in the New World. In a fantasy world with dwarves busily mining for thousands of years, it seems likely that there would be a wealth of silver and gold, and that large coins would be the norm not the exception.

 

That said, smaller coins should exist. If you have 1 oz silver coins, you might use the US system of 1/4 oz "quarters" and 1/10 oz "dimes". (The US once had a 1/20 oz "half dime" but they were too small and easily lost.) Or you could use the spanish "piece of eight" and divide a silver dollar into eight "bits" (0.125 oz each).

 

From what I can tell copper coins were rarely used between the end of the roman era and the modern era. Copper is of little value and it's value fluctuates relative to silver or gold; stability is important for coinage. Some systems distinguish copper from brass from bronze, but real copper coins are usually brass alloys anyway, so that distinction is rather artificial.

 

Iron coinage is ridiculous in my view; it is hard to work, of little value, and it rusts away to nothing. Tin is also absurd, since it turns to powder in low temperatures. Tin has been used in alloys, stainless steel only in the 20th century.

 

I generally use a system of silver and gold. You may find copper or electrum in ancient hoards, or as bullion, or from exotic foreign lands, but not in every day use. If a silver penny or half-penny is too small, you just barter. I tend to go with something like this:

 

silver penny (d): ($5) price of a beer [slightly smaller than a dime]

silver crown ©: ($10) personal use

silver sovereign (s): ($100) standard trade coin [1.6 oz silver]

gold guilder (g): ($1,000) mainly for large transactions [1.6 oz gold]

pound (L): ($1,000) accounting unit for large transactions

mark (M): ($10,000) accounting unit for huge transactions

 

Decimal system keeps it simple. Abbreviations (c,s,g) are an easy mnemonic familiar to gamers. General laborers earn 10c a week, skilled laborers 50-100c per week. Crowns are used for buying bread and beer; sovereigns are the standard trade coin and used for most commerce, as well as medium transactions like swords or horses. Gold is mainly used by the wealthy. Pounds and Marks are not coins but units of account used for very large transactions. It is possible that a country with rich mines might mint 1 lb coins as symbols of wealth and prestige but they would be hoarded not circulated.

 

Coin metals: http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/metal.html

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

In my campaign, unskilled laborers are paid in copper. Skilled laborers are paid in silver. Only the rich use gold at all.

[A_Pail_Rider]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Sure, that's a style of magic items, but it doesn't suit every one or model much source material well.

 

 

My point is, it doesn't matter. Pick whatever works for a particular setting / region and it's all good. Secretly, its all make believe anyway.

 

So people wondered how money & magik was handled in different campains. So I said how it went in a campaign that worked. So you asked me a question. So I answered. So you went off on me about how you thought it should be done.

 

Cold, dude, cold.

 

If you won't hear answers you don't like, don't ask questions.

 

And that's HER answer, dude.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

So people wondered how money & magik was handled in different campains. So I said how it went in a campaign that worked. So you asked me a question. So I answered. So you went off on me about how you thought it should be done.

 

Cold, dude, cold.

 

If you won't hear answers you don't like, don't ask questions.

 

And that's HER answer, dude.

 

Huh? Overreact much?

[D. Guss Tibus]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Iron coinage is ridiculous in my view; it is hard to work' date=' of little value, and it rusts away to nothing.[/quote']

 

I agree on two points. Hard to work, and rust falls off (copper 'rust' stays attached mostly). But I disagree on the other; its no "of little value" its of great usefullness. Too useful to stick into coins. People would melt down the iron coins and make swords, plowshares, daggers, pins, etc, etc, out of them.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

The rust factor depends on how often the coin is handled. Iron and steel tend to develop an oxidized layer that protects the rest of the metal, if it's handled often. Look at an old mechanic's tools...they're generally browned with oxidation, but not rusty per se.

 

If someone in this fantasy world has the equivalent of a penny jar, though, and it's allowed any kind of moisture (maybe even a humid climate), you'll have nothing but rust a few decades later when the adventurers find his abandoned cottage.

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Iron coinage is ridiculous in my view; it is hard to work' date=' of little value, and it rusts away to nothing.[/quote']

 

The overwhelming argument in favour of iron coinage is that we know that it was used in real life: most famously in Sparta, but also the Gan Tian Tong Bao iron coins from 11th century china or - more recently, the 1943 US penny which was made of zinc coated iron or steel, the iron pennia issued by Finland in the 1940s and so on.

 

There have been many, many (probably hundreds) of different iron coin types released over the last 2000 years: some cultures in my games use iron for the same reasons it was used in real life - value, hardness, scarcity of alternatives, etc

 

cheers, Mark

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

The rust factor depends on how often the coin is handled.

I would assume it would also be affected by how often the iron coins are transported in a pre-19th-century sailing vessel over a large body of salt water, such as the Mediterranean.

[Curufea]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Also, there seems to be the skipped mention that all coins rust, not just iron. Copper, bronze, tin, electrum, silver, platinum - they all rust.

[D. Guss Tibus]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Rust isn't the biggest deal. None in a place/time where money is known its just another trade good would waste something as useful as iron/steel on coins.

 

The '43 penny worked because most Americans think money is something different from 'goods'. Its not. When folx know its not, they look at coins and say "is this the bests use for what its made of?"

 

With iron, the answer is NO.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Rust isn't the biggest deal. None in a place/time where money is known its just another trade good would waste something as useful as iron/steel on coins.

 

The '43 penny worked because most Americans think money is something different from 'goods'. Its not. When folx know its not, they look at coins and say "is this the bests use for what its made of?"

 

With iron, the answer is NO.

 

Actually, the '43 steel penny was the direct result of the need for copper for the war effort. At that time, steel was a good choice for a penny, because the alternative was too valuable as a commodity. I believe that if you look at the other examples of steel/iron coinage mentioned in this thread, there were important reasons why the metal was used instead of another.

 

JoeG

[Markdoc]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Rust isn't the biggest deal. None in a place/time where money is known its just another trade good would waste something as useful as iron/steel on coins.

 

The '43 penny worked because most Americans think money is something different from 'goods'. Its not. When folx know its not, they look at coins and say "is this the bests use for what its made of?"

 

With iron, the answer is NO.

 

From an economic standpoint the answer is no for many coins - but they circulate anyway. You're confusing economic theory with economic reality - in real life people often do things which economically make no sense. In the US, right now, there are plenty of coins in circulation which have a metal content worth more than the coins' face value. If you take the smelting costs into account, even a post 1982 penny is worth more than a penny. It makes no sense to produce them - but the US does so anyway.

 

So does it make sense for people to use iron coinage? Well they've been doing so on and off for a couple of thousand years now, so the answer must be "yes".

 

cheers, Mark

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

My point is' date=' it doesn't matter. Pick whatever works for a particular setting / region and it's all good. Secretly, its all make believe anyway.[/quote']

 

This. There is much truth to this statement.

[Old Man]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Make believe?! No! It... it can't be!

[Cancer]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Yeah' date=' but 1.6 oz coins are a ridiculous idea. Making them reasonably small helps with the ol' "Suspension of Disbelief." [/quote']

 

What, you don't like Yapese stone money either? Now there's a concrete currency!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Also' date=' there seems to be the skipped mention that all coins rust, not just iron. Copper, bronze, tin, electrum, silver, platinum - they all rust.[/quote']

Gold doesn't rust. And IIRC, neither does Silver - it tarnishes, and the tarnish can be removed fairly easily. And Electrum, IIRC an allow of gold and silver, probably doesn't rust either.

 

In the US' date=' right now, there are plenty of coins in circulation which have a metal content worth more than the coins' face value[/url']. If you take the smelting costs into account, even a post 1982 penny is worth more than a penny. It makes no sense to produce them - but the US does so anyway.

Well it does in the sense that a penny only has to be minted once (for a cost of more than one cent), but can then be used for many, many transactions, totalling far more than it cost to mint.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Money in Fantasy Setting

 

Gold doesn't rust. And IIRC, neither does Silver - it tarnishes, and the tarnish can be removed fairly easily. And Electrum, IIRC an allow of gold and silver, probably doesn't rust either.

 

 

Well it does in the sense that a penny only has to be minted once (for a cost of more than one cent), but can then be used for many, many transactions, totalling far more than it cost to mint.

 

The issue here is that the mint actually makes a profit on coins larger than a nickel, which effectively means that both pennies and nickels are subsidized by the higher-denomination coins. And while coins are much more durable than paper money, there's still a cost associated with the manufacture. Remember, too, that many of the pennies that are minted each year are actually removed from circulation, by sitting in a change jar, or even just thrown away by people who don't see the coins as worth keeping.

 

There have been attempts to banish the penny to the same fate as the half-penny (last produced in 1857), but the efforts seem to be blocked by lobbyists for the zinc mining industry and Coinstar.

 

I have to admit, when I was in New Zealand last year, it was really convenient to not have to worry about pennies or even 5 cent pieces (they have eliminated both denominations from their currency). And having a $1 and $2 coin meant that I didn't have to dig in my wallet for small purchases, and I didn't have to carry a huge pocketful of change either.

 

JoeG