What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

So' date=' if I could lift 880 lbs. (400 kilos), I would have a 20 STR. If one of my buddies can lift 945 lbs., which works out to be 20.498 STR, and another can lift 850 lbs. (19.733 STR). Now, using the standard Hero rounding rules, all three of us have a 20 STR, right? Butwe aren't all lifting the same amount are we?[/quote']

 

It is one of the unfortunate things about the exponential scale--since one point of STR equates to a roughly 15% increase in lifting ability, differences of less than about 7 or 8 percent, while extremely significant in real life, just aren't noticeable enough in game to matter.

 

Perhaps someone can relate this back to a hot female bodybuilder so we can get back on track?

 

http://www.performance-massage.com/my_images/bruneau_sharon_14.jpg

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

So' date=' if I could lift 880 lbs. (400 kilos), I would have a 20 STR. If one of my buddies can lift 945 lbs., which works out to be 20.498 STR, and another can lift 850 lbs. (19.733 STR). Now, using the standard Hero rounding rules, all three of us have a 20 STR, right? Butwe aren't all lifting the same amount are we?[/quote']

 

Yes, but most games have this issue. I don't even think GURPS breaks it down as far as you're describing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

So' date=' if I could lift 880 lbs. (400 kilos), I would have a 20 STR. If one of my buddies can lift 945 lbs., which works out to be 20.498 STR, and another can lift 850 lbs. (19.733 STR). Now, using the standard Hero rounding rules, all three of us have a 20 STR, right? Butwe aren't all lifting the same amount are we?[/quote']

 

Absolutely - even the difference between 20 and 21 is a range (technically the guy who can lift 945 lbs needs 21 STR). In game, everyone with STR 20 is capable (sans push) of lifting 880, because the game is an abstraction and an approximation.

 

The thing that concerns me is what we do with the numbers. We are talking about two characteristics and whether they are actually objective measures (strength is, comeliness isn't, natch) but they are treated very differently in game mechanically. We don't use a 9+STR/5 roll for anything officially as far as I can make out. Why are we comparing it to a characteristic that is only used that way?

 

INT would be a better comparison. It definitely is not measurable on any scale that is univerally agreed upon, applies differently in different situations and only matters in 5 point units except for bragging rights.

 

/insert name of 'hot' individual to keep the NDG itinerant happy/

[Vulcan]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Yup' date=' Vondy is right. I love playing cinematic heroic games where characters are bouncing off the walls like Jackie Chan, and in those games it's entirely appropriate for people to have stats in the 21-30 range. But in the game I'm running right now, I flat-out told my players that only one person in ten million has an 18-20 in any of their stats, and no one [i']ever[/i] had anything higher than 21-23.

 

Of course, since the PCs are the heroes, I told them they could take one stat of their choice that high, and everything else had to be in the 10-17 range. But that's cool. I don't intend for this game to be about wild wuxia action. The next game I run, though, will probably be all about the crazy-@** superhuman stuff -- because I don't want to limit myself to one genre or one style.

 

The beautiful thing about the Hero system is that is can accomodate both types of game (and many more besides!).

 

And that is the proper way to handle that. Rather than have the rules say flat-out what 'human maximum' is, it should be handled by the GM.

 

Not to say the rules can't have suggestions, mind you. But they should be just that: suggestions.

[Vondy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Yeah, some rulesets allow the assigning of different CHA to a base skill roll and we tried this in Hero during our mad experimenter phase. I've come to the conclusion that it didn't work very well as people's CHA varied so much that often switching the base skill (done to reflect an adverse condition of some kind) meant they performed better. One example of many that popped up in our game was that of the "petty criminal" confronted with a very complicated lock. The GM decides that INT is appropriate to reflect complexity rather than DEX. That inflicts the appropriate penalty on the expert, who has more DEX than INT. However, the "rowdy student"* has a base roll with lockpicking. The "penalty" actually improves his roll: so he has some difficulty with ordinary locks, but improves if they are much better contructed

 

This kind of experience is what led me to use complementary rolls more. In this case, the rowdy student isn't a great lockpicker - but he is not always as hindered by complex designs as his less cerebral buddy.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*This was a modern-day, Call of Cthulhu-inspired game.

 

You make a good point. Perhaps all skills should be general skills and characteristics should be complimentary rolls.

[Markdoc]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

You make a good point. Perhaps all skills should be general skills and characteristics should be complimentary rolls.

 

We actually considered that

 

In the end, though, it made sense that the rules rewarded what we saw as consistent behaviour - that smart guys did better with knowledge and smart guy skills, that dextrous people did better with skills requiring dexterity, etc. Also, while complementary skills are a useful tool, I wouldn't want to use them on every roll.

 

cheers, Mark

[Roter Baron]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Back to the sweet chicks: Felicia Day! WHOA!!!

 

I always and forever will dig red-haired women! Sweet mama!

[Balabanto]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

A 20 comliness is the maximum achievable point of human attractiveness WITHOUT resorting to plastic surgery or botox injections.

 

In my game, it's only possible to achieve a comliness above 20 if you have a SUPER POWER related to to that and it fits with your special effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

A 20 comliness is the maximum achievable point of human attractiveness WITHOUT resorting to plastic surgery or botox injections.

 

In my game, it's only possible to achieve a comliness above 20 if you have a SUPER POWER related to to that and it fits with your special effect.

 

That is a House Rule (and a perfectly reasonable one at that).

 

However, nothing in 5e, 5er or the FAQ supports this being considered a default rule.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

A 20 comliness is the maximum achievable point of human attractiveness WITHOUT resorting to plastic surgery or botox injections.

 

In my game, it's only possible to achieve a comliness above 20 if you have a SUPER POWER related to to that and it fits with your special effect.

 

In my game, it's only possible to achieve a Comeliness above 20 if.... you pay the points, and have a concept that calls for COM greater than 20.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

In Kazei 5, 20+ COM is easy. It's the age of genetic engineering after all. Oh, and based around several anime, which means high COMs are a given.

[nexus]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

My scale "impossible without external enhancement, mutation or other applied handwavium and technobabble" changes from campaign to campaign and is usually a soft limit, bendable with a good reason and concept.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I almost think the "legendary" level for COM should extend as high as 50 (the same as for INT, EGO and PRE). At those levels you could have the rather dramatic impact of attractiveness that you see in cinema and genre fiction. And, hey, 50 COM costs 20/35 points, so it's not like it's "something for nothing".

[Vondy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I almost think the "legendary" level for COM should extend as high as 50 (the same as for INT' date=' EGO and PRE). At those levels you could have the rather dramatic impact of attractiveness that you see in cinema and genre fiction. And, hey, 50 COM costs 20/35 points, so it's not like it's "something for nothing".[/quote']

 

In terms of skill rolls, you'd end up with 19-. That jives with "legendary" characteristics and what amounts to legendary skill rolls in terms of what is in the sidebar of the book. Its certainly internally consistent. And it would work for many genres. It would, however, affect playability for other genres. This is something I really think needs to be set on a genre by genre, or campaign by campaign, basis.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

In Kazei 5' date=' 20+ COM is easy. It's the age of genetic engineering after all. Oh, and based around several anime, which means high COMs are a given.[/quote']

 

 

...and arguably have less impact because of it. Personally I don't use COM for much at present, so I don't really care how much you spend on it. It's not even so much a matter of sfx as a matter of choice.

 

Just to shuffle off to one side for a moment, what does 20 STR look like to you?

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

...and arguably have less impact because of it. Personally I don't use COM for much at present, so I don't really care how much you spend on it. It's not even so much a matter of sfx as a matter of choice.

 

Just to shuffle off to one side for a moment, what does 20 STR look like to you?

 

leaving aside lift capacity for a moment, I'm tempted to say "Bruce Lee", because his strength-to-weight ratio allegedly put him at or near the 100th percentile for his size(IOW, he wasn't in the top 1%, he was just AT the 100th percentile mark(the best you can get, more or less)). His flexibility and functional strength were way above average. Probably if you just measured lifting ability, he'd be around a 15 or so. The character he played in films was clearly a 20 STR.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

...and arguably have less impact because of it. Personally I don't use COM for much at present, so I don't really care how much you spend on it. It's not even so much a matter of sfx as a matter of choice.

 

Just to shuffle off to one side for a moment, what does 20 STR look like to you?

 

Probably Arnold or Stallone in their prime. Oddhat could probably tell us about a lot of STR 20 people.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I assume that "lift capacity" in general is equivalent to deadlift (which is roughly lifting the weight to waist level), and that bench press would be about 60-75% of this, and overhead/military press about 50%.

 

A 10 STR person could dead lift 220 pounds, bench about 132 to 165 pounds, and military press about 110 pounds. A 15 STR person could dead lift about 440 pounds, bench about 265 to 330 pounds, and military press about 220 pounds. A 20 STR person could dead lift about 880 pounds, bench about 530 to 660 pounds, and military press about 440 pounds. The real world upper limit on STR would therefore be around 23 max.

 

More than a few professional football players can bench press 500 pounds. Lots of powerlifters can.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I've gone with this formula:

 

10 STR = 220 lbs to about your ankles. That's 110 lbs to the waist, and 55 lbs over your head. It's not exact, but works well enough for most characters.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I've gone with this formula:

 

10 STR = 220 lbs to about your ankles. That's 110 lbs to the waist, and 55 lbs over your head. It's not exact, but works well enough for most characters.

 

That would make a 30 STR highly credible, because it would be an 880 pound overhead press. The record in the clean and jerk is about 266 kilos, or 583 pounds. So a 30 STR would be about 50% stronger than that.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

For the record, the weight listed for different STRs is that you can just lift off the ground and stagger a few steps with. I'm not 100% sure if that's in 5er, but I know Steve's said it before. My formula (such as it is) is borrowed from Fuzion. I feel it's fairly cinematic, and that's why I use it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

For the record' date=' the weight listed for different STRs is that you can just lift off the ground and stagger a few steps with. I'm not 100% sure of that's in 5er, but I know Steve's said it before.[/quote']

 

It's in both 5E and 5ER

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

It's in both 5E and 5ER

 

Thanks GA.

 

This means my formula works well enough for most settings and makes it easy to assign STRs to characters if you ever see then lift anything you know the weight of over their head.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

For the record' date=' the weight listed for different STRs is that you can just lift off the ground and stagger a few steps with. I'm not 100% sure if that's in 5er, but I know Steve's said it before. My formula (such as it is) is borrowed from Fuzion. I feel it's fairly cinematic, and that's why I use it.[/quote']

 

I spitball that "just lift off the ground and stagger a few steps with" as lifting to mid-body. Paul Anderson lifted some obscene amount of weight a few inches off the ground once.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

In either case, I'm pretty sure it means 20 STR is not the maximum for human lifting.