Immunity to Electric Attacks

[Clovis]

I have a rubber-man on my in the team. I was wondering the best why to make the player truly immune. I was thinking Life Support, but I'm not sure if that was the right way to go about it.

[Steve Long]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

This is a how-to, so I've moved it to the Discussion board so that other people can participate.

 

Here's my two cents. Generally speaking, except for a few limited exceptions there's no way to render a character totally, 100%, immune to any sort of attack in the HERO System. This is part of the game's design philosophy, since (a) absolutes tend to be undramatic, unbalancing, and no fun in a gaming context, and ( even in fiction, "absolute" defenses (and other absolutes) usually turn out not to be so absolute after all.

 

If you want an "official" way to make a character invulnerable to electricity, you don't use Life Support. You buy however much Resistant Energy Defense you need to protect the character from what the GM would generally consider to be the most powerful electrical attack the character's likely to face. Then the GM invokes the Absolute Effect Rule (which is discussed in Fantasy Hero) and declares: "Regardless of how much damage an electricity attack does, this power constitutes total, 100%, protection against it."

[Clovis]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Thank you! Sorry about that.

[Steve Long]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

No apologies necessary at all. And besides, it may "spark" an interesting conversation. Or at least a link to a thread where someone's raised a similar issue.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Desolidification can also be an effective way to do this, but unfortunately it also requires specific GM consent for you to not have to buy the expensive Affects Physical World Advantage on all your offensive powers and Str. A few people have also created a house rule that adds a 100% level to Damage Reduction for this purpose, but I've never gone with this one and I don't have any immediate advice on cost or other balancing factors.

[braincraft]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Some people use various Desolid builds to simulate total immunity, but it requires some house ruling and always feels like a kludge.

 

 

 

edit: Er, yeah. Hit post too late.

[Alibear]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

+50 resistant ed, only v electricity (-1) would keep you just peachy in my campaign.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

+50 resistant ed' date=' only v electricity (-1) would keep you just peachy in my campaign.[/quote']

 

This is my vote.

[dsatow]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I'd also go for the extra ED vs electricity, mainly because dependent on the amount of power in the electrical strike would determine whether the rubber would survive or just be reduced to ash. Another solution is instead of outright defenses only, DCV vs electrical attacks (-1) might also be good as being made of rubber you are less likely to be hit by lightning having little conductive on you (electricity likes to travel the path of least resistance).

[Vulcan]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

The thing to bear in mind is that electrical attacks can be built as E-Blasts, RKA's, Drains, Supresses (Supress Body as a 'heart stopping' effect), or even Entangles (Tasers are a prime example of this).

 

Just something for GM's to bear in mind. If a PC has paid points for ED vs. Electriciy and expects to be immune to electricity, either tell them up front that tasers will still leave them twitching on the ground (since it is an Entangle or Drain), or allow them to be immune to the oddball electrical effects as well...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

 

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

[Split Decision]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

 

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

 

I would allow an exotic VPP, Cosmic, Only to Counteract Electricity-SFX Powers (-2).

 

20 * (+2) / (-2) = 20 control, 40 = 40 point pool... 60 active points to make the countermeasure of your choice up to 40 active points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

One house rule we dicussed previously, and I can not find now, was to use a sort of Life Support, but cost it rather differently. I've never been that happy with LS:Heat - it is almost meaningless. Instead of a fixed cost you could buy LS in three flavours:

 

1 point: you can ignore 1DC from a rare attack form hard radiation

2 points: you can ignore 1 DC from an uncommon attack form eg cold/sonics/electricity

3 points: you can ignore 1 DC from a common attack form eg fire/heat

 

SO, you can buy 24 points of LS: electricity, and that means you basically ignore the first 12DC of electricity damage - if someone hits you with 20d6 ELECTRIC BLAST or a 6 1/2d6 ELECTROKILL, that's 20DCs, but you ignore the first 12DC so they only roll 8DC of damage against you (8d6 and 2 1/2d6 respectively) - and then normal defences apply.

 

It is simple, it is clear and it works pretty well. It is a form of scaleable invulnerability.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

The thing to bear in mind is that electrical attacks can be built as E-Blasts, RKA's, Drains, Supresses (Supress Body as a 'heart stopping' effect), or even Entangles (Tasers are a prime example of this).

 

Just something for GM's to bear in mind. If a PC has paid points for ED vs. Electriciy and expects to be immune to electricity, either tell them up front that tasers will still leave them twitching on the ground (since it is an Entangle or Drain), or allow them to be immune to the oddball electrical effects as well...

 

That's why I favor the very limited Desolidification myself. It can potentially protect against any form of attack that falls under the applicable SFX, no matter what mechanics the attack is built with.

[JmOz]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

In my games I allow what I call Unified defence, I stole the term from a similar but different ability in Ultamate Energy Projector:

 

MY VERSION OF IT costs 1 point per point of UD. When you buy UD you must choose an appropriate special effect that it will protect from, the GM can apply a limitation to it if he feels that the F/X is focused enough to require it (Broad like Magic would be a -0, Something like electricity would probably warrent a -1/4 or -1/2 depending on some factors). The defence is not resistant but can be made so with DR. The defence then works against all attacks made by that F/X no matter the normal defence power (So it works as Flash defence, Mental defence, Power Defence, Energy Defence, Physical Defence, Lack of Weakness). This does stack with normal defences

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Cool. I like that idea JmOz. We could probably figure out how to apply it to even more unusual attacks as well. Have it add to the DCs of Str and attack powers for breaking out of Entangles maybe (probably at a ratio of 3 AP : 1 DC like a HA). Give a bonus to Per rolls for Images and such, and remove penalties to rolls imposed by Change Environment at a similar ratio. Something like that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I like the JmOz Universal Defence idea and the prestidigitator amendment, and whilst might want to tweak the costs a little it sounds like a very good idea.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Amp

Namorita

N3

 

 

Also, one of the pregens in my Project: PREDATOR adventure in Digital HERO is a basically a human capacitar and has several Electrical powers including a resistance to Electrical damage.

[JmOz]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I like the JmOz Universal Defence idea and the prestidigitator amendment' date=' and whilst might want to tweak the costs a little it sounds like a very good idea.[/quote']

 

Actualy the reason for the UD not being resistant was because of playtesting, originaly I allowed it to be resistant, then rPD & rED, then not resistant at all, found that to be about right. It is DEFINATLY a stop sign power btw.

 

As for adding other abilities, I am reluctant to do so, but if you did I would say that it would be 5points = 1dc for breaking abilities, maybe raise the cost to 2 points per point if you wanted a form us Super UD that included the other stuff...interesting ideas...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

It's just an orthogonal slice of the same loaf as far as I am concerned. We normally cut things one way for physical, energy, mental, flash, etc. Cutting orthogonally we can do it by SFX instead. As long as we make sure the slices are about as narrow in the SFX direction as they are in the mechanical direction, I don't see why they can't have the same cost as normal defences (and there lies the rub I suppose, since SFX are a lot more subjective, but as long as the GM is comfortable with judging that...).

[Alibear]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

This makes me think that we do need a Universal Special Effect Defence power and then we cost it or limit depending on it's usefulness.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Just ramblin', but...I've costed out 'defence' as a build, when we've been chatting about invulnerability and it works out at something ridiculously expensive:

 

Take 30 active points of attack (which works OK for pretty much all base attack costs without having to fiddle with half dice)

 

That is 6DC or normal or killing attack. Killing attack is harder to defence against so:

 

12 Body and 60 stun:

 

60 pd, 12 of which needs to be resistant and 48 of which only stops Stun:

 

12pd + 6 points Dam Res + (48pd@-1/2): a total of 48 points.

 

You need the same for energy attacks, 96 points, already and we've JUST covered normal and killing attacks.

 

You need 36 points of power defence, 12 points of sight flash, 20 points of hearing flash (we'll ignore the other senses), 36 points of mental defence, ans 10 points of KBR.

 

That's 220 points right there - and it still doesn't cover all the bases - to guarantee immunity to the effects of 30 points worth of attack, or a cost per point of 'Universal defence' (UD) of a little over 7 points.

 

Of course that deals with maximums - if we assume that average damage is likely and we therefore only need to defend against say 4 points in 6, the cost drops to around 5 points per 1 point of UD. Even if you decide 'electrical damage only' is a -2 limitation, that is still 1 to 2 points per point of 'electrical defence' - which is silly IMO.

 

ANyway, I thought I'd throw that in to demonstrate that whilst defences against a specific attack are cheap, defences against a specific sfx are not.

 

There are, of course, other approaches, and here's an interesting one:

 

Suppress 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), all electrical powers simultaneously (+2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible to Hearing, and Sight Groups (+3/4) (237 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

 

237 active, 118 real

 

Which is a kind of personal power supression field, which nullifies 30 active points of electrical power that hits you, and works aout at about 4 points for 1 point of 'defence'. it would be cheaper if I had not made it invisible: 200 active, 100 real, so 3 1/3 points per point of defence.

 

I'm not saying that is right ether, I'm just looking at comparisons and options.

[Markdoc]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and' date=' whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.[/quote']

 

Yep, that'd be my approach as well. That makes the character nigh-immune to electrical attacks - he'd take about 17 STUN from a 20d6 electrical attack, even he had no defences. If he's got any significant ED a 20d6 attack is unlikely to even stun him.

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

 

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

 

So how do you account for the second part? I was thinking that there should be some accounting for it - so 75% resistant (only vs electricity -2; does not work against attacks greater than 20DC -1/4).

 

I realise that this doesn't actually save that much more points but it does put a limit on the protection such that once the resistance is broken you get a pretty complete meltdown....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

So how do you account for the second part? I was thinking that there should be some accounting for it - so 75% resistant (only vs electricity -2; does not work against attacks greater than 20DC -1/4).

 

I realise that this doesn't actually save that much more points but it does put a limit on the protection such that once the resistance is broken you get a pretty complete meltdown....

 

 

Doc

 

Building a defence that catastrophically fails under excess load. You've got a nasty streak, Doc.

 

Prophylactica appeared to be taking Ohm's electrical lashing comfortably until he made one final titanic effort to overload her and with a bubbling hiss her rubber costume seemed to virtually evaporate, revealing that she did, indeed, shop at Victoria's Secret. Ohm advanced on her prostrate form, presumably to check her labels...