What if spells were like weapons?

[Chris Goodwin]

What it says on the tin.

 

Instead of paying points for spells, you'd get them for free. They'd have writeups not unlike weapons, with their own built in Advantages and Limitations. You'd buy Familiarity with them and Skill Levels to get better at them. Instead of costing money, they'd cost time, or maybe something else. (This would probably work better with a Vancian-style magic system.)

 

Spells could easily be divided into groups. Where there are Common Melee, Common Missile, and various Uncommon groups, you could easily have Common Fire Spells, Common Light Spells, Common Water Spells, Common Life Spells, and so on. There would be Uncommon groups, each made up of a few closely related spells. There might also be special spells that are 1 point per.

 

And finally, there would be specialized spell maneuvers and even, potentially, Martial Arts forms usable with spells.

 

This is pretty much entirely GM driven, and would require the GM to make sure that weapons and spells are balanced however he feels appropriate. It also means the GM could still require characters to pay points for "special" spells (not unlike the relationship between magic items and normal items that currently exists).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Sounds entirely do-able, and probably quite user friendly (largely because, as you said, it's very front loaded by the GM).

 

My immediate thoughts...

 

Why not have spells have a defined monetary value? At least to initially learn. Cost balances come in when comparing initial cost, replacement costs and expendables costs (to state the obvious )

 

This might be a good system to use Stat Min limitations for spells.

 

I'll be pondering. This has potential.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

I'm playtesting a Skill Based system - you buy a Skill in a School Of Magic and you can cast any spell in that school - not extra points needed.

 

It gives the scholarly "I know a lot of skills" feel that is a genre trope, but you don't need to play high point characters to have powerful mages. So far it's working out pretty decently.

[BNakagawa]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Does this mean that when you smoke a spellcaster, you rifle through his pockets for spare spells?

[Markdoc]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

We tried two games based around this idea, and it works ....OK. It does seem to be balanced, because every character is a magic-user and pretty much all of them are magic-user/warriors (those who started out without magic either rapidly learnt it or retired their characters and made new magic-using ones). I don't really care for it, personally because every character is a magic-user and pretty much all of them are magic-user/warriors. However, if that's the feel you are going for, I don't see a problem.

 

It also requires extensive GM input and a high degree of GM control, when PCs pay the same for a cantrip to clean their clothes and a spell to make them all but immune to normal weapons.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Validus Familiaritas

 

Validus Familiaritas represents a concept of "Familiarity Casting", where in there are various Systems that have a set list of Magic abilities centered around some central theme, and characters buy a Familiarity with each Magic ability they wish to be able to use.

This is a flexible and powerful system of Magic, but it does require care on the part of a GM designing such a system of Magic to avoid making it too inexpensive and powerful.

The following concrete examples of Validus Familiaritas Magic Systems are provided:

 

* TOTEMIC SHAMANISM: Divine Nature Magic based around Animal Totems.

* PIEDRAGEMASI: Arcane Magic based around different Gemstones.

* TROUBADOURUS: Arcane Magic based around different Musical Instruments.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

I like the idea of being able to buy spells like equipment. It would be rather like Final Fantasy XII. It should be balanced with expenses for armour, weapons, magical items and so on.

 

I suppose that for a Fire-and-Forget system you could buy one off spells. In the form of gems perhaps or just the standard scroll. It would be the magical equivalent of stocking up on extra ammo.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

It also requires extensive GM input and a high degree of GM control' date=' when PCs pay the same for a cantrip to clean their clothes and a spell to make them all but immune to normal weapons.[/quote']

 

I've toyed around with a magic system based around a VPP. There was a generic Magic skill to change the allocation of points in the pool, and another specific skill to cast each spell. The players might not care if they needed to attempt to cast their cleaning spell multiple times, but they'd want to buy up their skill with the invulnerability spell (which, being more powerful, would have a higher penalty).

[Markdoc]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

I've toyed around with a magic system based around a VPP. There was a generic Magic skill to change the allocation of points in the pool' date=' and another specific skill to cast each spell. The players might not care if they needed to attempt to cast their cleaning spell multiple times, but they'd want to buy up their skill with the invulnerability spell (which, being more powerful, would have a higher penalty).[/quote']

 

I've used VPPs extensively (in fact, two PCs in my current game have magic VPPs) and they tend not to be a problem since the cost of buy-in means the mage gets a high degree of flexibility, but not so much raw power.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blue Jogger]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Hmm, weapons have a certain physicality to them. You may want to have 200 arrows, you could afford 200 arrows, but unless you have a magic quiver, you're probably going to settle for a number less than 20. A firebolt wand, however, may have 200 charges and be much easier to carry than a strung bow. Or even just the knowledge of casting firebolts without any foci.

 

This isn't an argument against it, but one of the things I didn't think of before. The main reason that I haven't used magic as a commodity was I didn't want adventures who suddenly got lots of money to suddenly buy a bunch of magic. But, this doesn't happen with weapons, or food, or anything else since you need to carry everything around.

[CTaylor]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

My original system was like that: you bought a power pool and learned the spells for money or found them, the points were only for the pool. Because it was a power framework, I found that it was very limiting (no power framework-based spells) and it greatly restricted mage power to very small effects.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Hmm, weapons have a certain physicality to them. You may want to have 200 arrows, you could afford 200 arrows, but unless you have a magic quiver, you're probably going to settle for a number less than 20. A firebolt wand, however, may have 200 charges and be much easier to carry than a strung bow. Or even just the knowledge of casting firebolts without any foci.

 

This isn't an argument against it, but one of the things I didn't think of before. The main reason that I haven't used magic as a commodity was I didn't want adventures who suddenly got lots of money to suddenly buy a bunch of magic. But, this doesn't happen with weapons, or food, or anything else since you need to carry everything around.

 

Simply give 'spells' physicality as well. Balls of solidified magic that look like crystals which can fit in the palm of your hand.

[Lucius]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Simply give 'spells' physicality as well. Balls of solidified magic that look like crystals which can fit in the palm of your hand.

 

Or cards you have to draw randomly from a deck.

 

Um...wait a minute....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks we know a mage who does that....a mage who lives on a seashore....

[Blue Jogger]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Simply give 'spells' physicality as well. Balls of solidified magic that look like crystals which can fit in the palm of your hand.

 

It's not quite that simple. Take a simple water spell. A person needs 2 liters per day (simple for a Major Transform). Now 2 liters of water weighs 2 kilograms. So if I was going to cross the forbidden desert, I might need enough water for say 3 weeks, or 42 kilograms (92 pounds).

 

But... if I buy that simple water spell, it is just a palm size crystal, not 92 pounds of water. Now, that's not a very realistic example, since most fantasy games aren't logistics oriented. But I might impose that water producing crystals might have so many charges until they run out of water and you have to buy another crystal.

 

It's not just the physicality of the spell, it's also the physicality of what it is replacing.

[bubba smith]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

this thread has a good idea in it usinmg spellsd as weapons ala the magic weapons of DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS TAS

[Shadowsoul]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

It's not quite that simple. Take a simple water spell. A person needs 2 liters per day (simple for a Major Transform). Now 2 liters of water weighs 2 kilograms. So if I was going to cross the forbidden desert, I might need enough water for say 3 weeks, or 42 kilograms (92 pounds).

 

But... if I buy that simple water spell, it is just a palm size crystal, not 92 pounds of water. Now, that's not a very realistic example, since most fantasy games aren't logistics oriented. But I might impose that water producing crystals might have so many charges until they run out of water and you have to buy another crystal.

 

It's not just the physicality of the spell, it's also the physicality of what it is replacing.

 

This problem is offset slightly by requiring a crystal for each charge, not just for each spell, which is how I envisioned it.

 

Another possible way to limit magic would be mock up some kind of carrying system based off Ego rather than Str. I.e. magic exerts a pull on the mind and it requires a certain amount of willpower to carry it around without having a seizure. You'd have to assign a certain amount of 'mental weight' to each spell and then just treat Ego as though it were a specialised form of Str.

 

It would make for some interesting developments in party dynamics. Mages would be trying to convince other characters to help carry their spells for them. 'Familiars' might just be strong willed creatures which can carry spells themselves. (Imagine the mage stalking the earth with his little pixie Familiar fluttering desperately after him carrying a big sack filled with gleaming spells).

[Lucius]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Or the limiting factor is INT rather than STR, and you can think of spells as being like computer programs.

 

I think something like that is what Vance had in mind.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Casually diverting suspicion from the question of what makes a palindromedary's hump so big...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

I would say that there doesn't necessarily need to be anything physical associated with spells. A sword, for instance, is a Power that (a) you don't directly pay points for, and ( happens to be built with the Focus Limitation. I don't want to seem like I'm pooh-poohing the idea of physicality to spells; it's actually pretty good, definitely new, and I like new ideas.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Well, I'm not married to the idea of physicality, just what would make spells have the same type of complications that weapons. Spells could have different complications, certainly.

 

Let's set aside physicality and it's half-brother "spell components" and look at some other complications.

 

Spells are usually rare. The rarity might be a literacy problem, it might be that only 1 out of 10 people are mages and only 1 out of 10 become really good mages, it might be a guild requirement, it might be pre-requisite requirements (you need to know spells A,B,C before learning D or requires a magic skill of 15 or less to cast it safely). Although, like weapons, maybe someone of them are like clubs and everyone can use one.

 

I think rarity is the big one. If the entire party can cast magic, it is certainly different than if it is only the mage's and cleric's bailiwick.

[Vondy]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

This reminds me vaguely of the Sha'ir class from Al Qadim:

 

"Hey, Gen!"

"Yeah, boss?"

"Go get me spell X."

"Back in a jiffy, el heffe!"

 

of course, the Sha'ir wasn't paying for the spell, just sending his trusty elemental servant to go get it for him, but still...

 

And in that world spells had physicality ("tokens") on the elemental plane where it was to be found - just not on the material plane, where it translated into a mental form the Sha'ir let loose.

 

Personally, it could work. I'd prefer a system that combined a skill roll with familiarities.

[Lucius]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Although' date=' like weapons, maybe someone of them are like clubs and [u']everyone[/u] can use one.

 

.

 

Actually, anyone can use ANY weapon - it's just a question of how well.

 

If you lack both the STR and the Familiarity, you take a very heavy penalty using, say, a greatsword, but you CAN us it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Familiarity Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[Blue Jogger]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

Actually, anyone can use ANY weapon - it's just a question of how well.

 

If you lack both the STR and the Familiarity, you take a very heavy penalty using, say, a greatsword, but you CAN use it.

 

Hmm, you're right. Now I feel a little better about my magic system which will allows anyone to cast a fireball instantly (45 Active Points) on a 5 or less. Granted rolling a 6 or more will result in a bad failure which is why most people don't do it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

You know, I'd just use Resource Pools for the entire campaign.

 

the limit being how many "spell crystals" (which is an idea I think is cool) can be in proximity before they interfere with each other and break down.

 

Call it a Spell Resource Pool and be done.

[Tex Jones]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

I went open ended magic with end reserve rec once / day

 

very powerfull buy slots for number of active spells

 

enchanting items locks out slot

for a month creating a item with independent note magic items

once created the end cost for using it comes normal end all items must have charges which is max uses per day week, ...

[Roth]

Re: What if spells were like weapons?

 

My ex and I had created a fantasy world for the 3.0 version of D&D. I'd have rather used Hero, but she really didn't like hero. So after she and I were no more I started working on a Hero system version.

 

One of the things I realized is that spells in D&D were a matter of time and energy to get (in the form of going up levels) but that magic users of all types really didn't pay points for them. Much like fighters didn't pay for their weapons.

 

So I thought about using a Magic Talent. each tier (1-10) would be worth 10 points and get you a certain number of slots (Tier 1 was 10 + Int bonus up to Tier 10 being 1 + int Bonus). The various "classes" would get a price break on the Talent depending on their power source and mode of learning. Magus (Wizards) would get a 50% price break because they had to learn from spell books and take time to relearn to change their spells. Mavens (Sorcerers) Wouldn't get any, because while they only had a set number of spells in their heads, they didn't have to do anything but rest to regain magical power.

 

Add a magical end reserve that recovered only when you were fully at rest (End 100 Rec 10, Rec only recovers per half hour), and there you have it.

I was also going to sit down and translate a good number of spells so the players would have some ready, and encourage them to do the same, or create spells of their own that would fall along one of the Tiers.