Weapon always does maximum damage

[McCoy]

Number Three Son wants a weapon that always does maximum damage. I can think of two ways to do this.

 

First, buy 1d6 HKA. Take standard effect. According to my Hero Designer this give you 3 BODY & 6 STUN plus any STR adds. Now add the +1 pip adder (5 points), and use the "custom adder" option to buy it twice more, 6 BODY & 12 STUN. Now buy the "+1 STUN modifier" (a + 1/4 advantage) three times, 6 BODY & 30 STUN per attack, 52 AP & 5 END per attack.

 

On the other hand, +12d6 HTH attack, standard effect, gives 12 BODY & 36 STUN per attack, 40 AP & 6 END per attack.

 

I'm thinking the HTH attack and call the "Always does maximim damage" a freaking Special Effect.

 

Discussion?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Is this a normal weapon that his character wields with such expertise to always do 'maximum damage' or is it a magical/special weapon?

 

If it's the latter then standard effect is perfect but if it's the former then it would probably need a little more complex build (multipower with +Xd6 HKA and HA slots with Only to increase weapon damage to 'maximum').

 

HM

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

I seem to remember a power written as: attack A Xd6 plus yd6 can not exceed max damage of attack A. Doesn’t guarantee max damage, but will be closer.

I'll look for the write-up I'm thinking of.

[McCoy]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Is this a normal weapon that his character wields with such expertise to always do 'maximum damage' or is it a magical/special weapon?

 

If it's the latter then standard effect is perfect but if it's the former then it would probably need a little more complex build (multipower with +Xd6 HKA and HA slots with Only to increase weapon damage to 'maximum').

 

HM

Magical/special weapon. Can add things like focus limitation etc. when the core mechanic is determined.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Max damage basically works out to be a +1 Advantage.

 

Standard Effect = 3 points per die.

Every 2d6 SE = 6 points per die.

 

The cost of 1d6 * (1+1) == cost of 2d6

 

Makes the math / notation easier.

[JmOz]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Number Three Son wants a weapon that always does maximum damage. I can think of two ways to do this.

 

First, buy 1d6 HKA. Take standard effect. According to my Hero Designer this give you 2 BODY & 6 STUN plus any STR adds. Now add the +1 pip adder (5 points), and use the "custom adder" option to buy it twice more, 6 BODY & 12 STUN. Now buy the "+1 STUN modifier" (a + 1/4 advantage) three times, 6 BODY & 30 STUN per attack, 52 AP & 5 END per attack.

 

On the other hand, +12d6 HTH attack, standard effect, gives 12 BODY & 36 STUN per attack, 40 AP & 6 END per attack.

 

I'm thinking the HTH attack and call the "Always does maximim damage" a freaking Special Effect.

 

Discussion?

 

First off not sure where Hero Designer gets it's numbers but it should be (If I understand the rules right) 3 body and 6 stun

 

So to max damage it would be an additional die per die (So if the sword would do 2d6 then it should be built as a 4d6) make sure to account for Str, MA, and skill levels

 

then to get to max stun you would need to buy +3/4 worth of additional stun

 

so I would say the build would be (assuming a 2d6 Sword),

 

33 2d6 HKA, 0 end (+1/2), OAF (-1), +3 Stun Multiplier (+3/4)

27 +2d6 HKA, 0 end (+1/2), OAF (-1), +3 Stun Multiplier (+3/4), only to reach max damage (-1/2)

---

60 points real cost (134 Active Points)

 

or for a easier and cheaper build that will do the same thing

 

54 4d6 HKA (standard effect), 0 end (+1/2), +3 Stun Multiplier (+3/4), OAF (-1), Str does not add (-1/2). Each strike will do 12 Body and 60 stun...enough to KO most of my characters in one strike

[pinecone]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

I remember posting a build like that for my probability controller...Fortune. I don't know if it was in his name though....maybe I also posted a question about a Lim: Only to maximise?

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

A 1d6 HKA that always does 6 Body and 30 Stun?

 

Okay, I agree with buying 2d6 HKA, Standard Effect (Body and Stun). I think this gives (3*2=6) 6 Body and (3-1=2[*6]=12) Stun. Then buy Increased Stun Multiplier four times (+1 Advantage). You may or may not want to add some level of Invisible Power Effects, if this thing looks like an ordinary weapon, instead of something you'd REALLY not want to be hit with, notwithstanding its general appearance...

 

Without IPE, I'd say: HKA 2d6 (30), Increased Stun Multiplier x4 (+1); (60 Active Points), and add appropriate Limitations.

[JmOz]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

A 1d6 HKA that always does 6 Body and 30 Stun?

 

Okay, I agree with buying 2d6 HKA, Standard Effect (Body and Stun). I think this gives (3*2=6) 6 Body and (3-1=2[*6]=12) Stun. Then buy Increased Stun Multiplier four times (+1 Advantage). You may or may not want to add some level of Invisible Power Effects, if this thing looks like an ordinary weapon, instead of something you'd REALLY not want to be hit with, notwithstanding its general appearance...

 

Without IPE, I'd say: HKA 2d6 (30), Increased Stun Multiplier x4 (+1); (60 Active Points), and add appropriate Limitations.

 

You only need 3 Increased Stun multipliers

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

There's something weird about increased stun multiples, IIRC. I think you roll THEN add the increased stun multiple THEN subtract one.

 

That means that to always 'roll' 5 on the increased stun multiple you need 5 levels of increased STUN:

 

Roll 1+5=6-1=5

 

So you need this:

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (standard effect: 6 BODY, 42 STUN), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1 1/4) (67 Active Points)

 

Obviously you can reduce the real cost of the power because the damage is capped at 30 STUN.

 

Even then you are not getting maximum damage unless you are VERY strong, because things will go wrong with the STR adds for HKA.

 

As the above power 'only' does 6 Body and 30 Stun, I'd suggest that Number 3 Son re-thinks what he really wants: a 'straight' 2d6 HKA will usually give better damage results.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

How about 3 point skill levels only to increase damage (-1/2 possibly 3/4)? Every two gets you +1 body on a killing attack. then buy iup the Stun Mult....

 

I have those somewhere, I wont reveal to my players.

 

Untill it is too late....

 

[JmOz]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

There's something weird about increased stun multiples, IIRC. I think you roll THEN add the increased stun multiple THEN subtract one.

 

That means that to always 'roll' 5 on the increased stun multiple you need 5 levels of increased STUN:

 

Roll 1+5=6-1=5

 

So you need this:

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (standard effect: 6 BODY, 42 STUN), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1 1/4) (67 Active Points)

 

Obviously you can reduce the real cost of the power because the damage is capped at 30 STUN.

 

Even then you are not getting maximum damage unless you are VERY strong, because things will go wrong with the STR adds for HKA.

 

As the above power 'only' does 6 Body and 30 Stun, I'd suggest that Number 3 Son re-thinks what he really wants: a 'straight' 2d6 HKA will usually give better damage results.

 

 

Standard effect on the stun multiplier roll, 3+3-1=5

[McCoy]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

First off not sure where Hero Designer gets it's numbers but it should be (If I understand the rules right) 3 body and 6 stun

That was a typo on my part, has been corrected in the OP. Thanks!

[Vondy]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Max damage basically works out to be a +1 Advantage.

 

Standard Effect = 3 points per die.

Every 2d6 SE = 6 points per die.

 

The cost of 1d6 * (1+1) == cost of 2d6

 

Makes the math / notation easier.

 

 

 

What he said.

 

You essentially need to purchase double the attack's number of damage classes with standard effect. Since that's basically double the cost, a +1 advantage comes out nicely in the wash.

[JmOz]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

What he said.

 

You essentially need to purchase double the attack's number of damage classes with standard effect. Since that's basically double the cost, a +1 advantage comes out nicely in the wash.

 

I disagree, do to the effect of other advantages on cost the +1 approach reduces the cost

 

2d6, 0 end, Always max (+1) costs 75

4d6, 0 end costs 90

 

I see this being a significant consideation in making a new advantage...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

A +1 advantage always adds the base cost over again to the total active cost regardless of other advantages.

 

 

2d6K: 30 + 0 == 30

 

2d6K, Maximum Damage (+1): 30 + ((30 * 2) -30) {+30} == 30 + 30 = 60

 

2d6K, 0 end (+1/2), Maximum Damage (+1): 30 + ((30 * 1.5) -30) {+15} + ((30 * 2) -30) {+30} == 30 + 15 + 30 = 75

 

 

I'm not sure what your 4d6 item is supposed to indicate / its relevance; however:

 

 

4d6K, 0 end (+1/2): 60 + ((60 * 1.5) -60) {+15} == 60 + 30 = 90

 

I think what you were trying to say was to compare the limited double dice version, or:

 

 

4d6K: 60 + 0 == 60; Only Up To 12 Body (-1): 30 real

 

4d6K, 0 end (+1/2): 60 + ((60 * 1.5) -60) {+15} == 60 + 30 = 90; Only Up To 12 Body (-1): 45 real

 

 

Which, IMO, shows a clear preference towards the Advantage approach as being more indicative of real value.

 

To isolate the base effect without distractions its the difference between:

 

2d6K, Maximum Damage (+1): 30 + ((30 * 2) -30) {+30} == 30 + 30 = 60

 

and

 

4d6K: 60 + 0 == 60; Only Up To 12 Body (-1): 30 real

 

The double dice version prices the same as a bare 2d6K attack but is clearly better. Thus, -1 for the Up To 12 Body lim is too much. Dropping it to a -1/2 yields:

 

 

4d6K: 60 + 0 == 60; Only Up To 12 Body (-1/2): 40 real

 

However, a simple math analysis shows that 4d6 rolling 3.5 per die on average will yield a result of 14 on average, making this a nearly defacto "always" effect. Considering 3d6 normal vs this approach for 5 more character points, the 3d6 straight up attack would do 10.5 points of damage on average but could potentially do up to 18, with 13.5 - 15 being more typical above average effects; regardless its statistically going to do less damage over time than the 4d6 as 2d6 maxed effect but costs more. So...again, maybe -1/2 is too much of a lim for this.

 

Trying it again at -1/4:

 

4d6K: 60 + 0 == 60; Only Up To 12 Body (-1/4): 48 real

 

So this effect at least costs 3 more points than the 3d6 straight up attack. The problem with this approach is that its basically mathematically forced, and it doesn't scale well. Since we are starting at -1/4 for basically 1/2 possible effect, you can only go down not up; for instance Only Up To 18 Body on the same 4d6 attack has nowhere to go, modifier wise; -0 is the next step making it a "pointless" / concept restriction. Further, the attack has 60 AP so the character has to pay END for 60 AP anyway, and other advantages will get applied against it inflating their cost since the _base_ of the power is 60 for nearly the same outcome as the Advantaged approach price wise. For instance:

 

 

4d6K, 0 END (+1/2): 60 + ((60 * 1.5) -60) {+30}== 60 + 30 = 90; Only Up To 12 Body (-1/4): 72 real

 

(

contrasted against the Maximum Damage Advantage approach, repeated here:

2d6K, 0 end (+1/2), Maximum Damage (+1): 30 + ((30 * 1.5) -30) {+15} + ((30 * 2) -30) {+30} == 30 + 15 + 30 = 75

)

 

Also, there is an runtime in play difference of the Advantaged approach removing the need to roll automagically -- the effect always does MAX DAMAGE so no die roll is required; this speeds play and also from a design perspective allows the modeling of some "consistent" effects that do a flat amount of effect every time.

 

The double dice w/ limit approach still requires rolling and dice counting with the extra step of applying the arbitrary cap. Usually the outcome will be as predicted but sometimes (a crappy roll) below expected yield.

 

 

So in the end, doubling the dice and limiting down adds a lot of notational overhead and some runtime overhead for no real gain in precision or usefulness. The Advantaged approach streamlines the process, makes the notation easier, and speeds resolution without really giving up anything. It also adds some interesting opportunities to find synergy with Variable Advantage and ultra slots in blaster arrays and other such uses. I've had good results with it; YMMV.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Standard effect on the stun multiplier roll' date=' 3+3-1=5[/quote']

 

Is there an official standard effect for stun multipliers?

 

If so, '3' would seem to buck the trend: all other standard effect is LESS than average: the standard effect would be (following the trend) 3-1, or '2'.

 

That would then mean you did indeed only need 3 levels of increased STUN multiple (which could be treated as a limited advantage to reduce the cost) to always acheive maximum damage for a KA.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

A +1 advantage always adds the base cost over again to the total active cost regardless of other advantages.

 

 

Since when? Not something that I remember...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Since when? Not something that I remember...

 

It's the math.

 

30 base points with a +1 advantage costs 60 (add the base points)

 

30 base points with a +2 advantage costs 90 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

30 base points with a +3 advantage costs 120 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

30 base points with a +4 advantage costs 150 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

And so on.

[jtelson]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Standard effect on the stun multiplier roll' date=' 3+3-1=5[/quote']

 

Is there an official standard effect for stun multipliers?

 

If so, '3' would seem to buck the trend: all other standard effect is LESS than average: the standard effect would be (following the trend) 3-1, or '2'.

 

That would then mean you did indeed only need 3 levels of increased STUN multiple (which could be treated as a limited advantage to reduce the cost) to always acheive maximum damage for a KA.

 

You're saying the same thing only differently. He's subtracting after the +3 Stun Mod and You're subtracting before. With Standard Effect in place it doesn't matter when you reduce it (When you roll it's a different matter)

 

Even if you're right that would be 1 plus 1 plus 2 plus 1 not 1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 1

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Since when? Not something that I remember...

Well...that's the underlying math. Basic arithmetic hasn't changed in awhile. Not really any nice way to say that, but no offense actually intended.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

It's the math.

 

30 base points with a +1 advantage costs 60 (add the base points)

 

30 base points with a +2 advantage costs 90 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

30 base points with a +3 advantage costs 120 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

30 base points with a +4 advantage costs 150 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

And so on.

 

There are 2 problems with that approach, the advantage stacking one that has been mentioned (2d6 KA (SE) + 0 END (45 points) costs more than 1d6 KA (SE) +1 for double damage + 0 END (37 points)

 

AND

 

It doesn't work for killing attacks like it does for normal attacks. Which is kinda the kicker.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

Weird: this is what I get for 'standard effect' in HD:

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR) (standard effect: 7 BODY, 35 STUN), +3 Increased STUN Multiplier (+3/4) (52 Active Points)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

It's the math.

 

30 base points with a +1 advantage costs 60 (add the base points)

 

30 base points with a +2 advantage costs 90 (add the base points again for another +1 advantage)

 

OK. I was thinking that KS was saying that a +1 advantage changed the base points against which advantages would be applied.

 

A closer reading of his post showed that he was not, however...

 

4d6K' date=' 0 END (+1/2): 60 + ((60 * 1.5) -60) {+30}== 60 + 30 = 90; Only Up To 12 Body (-1/4): [b']72 [/b]real

 

(contrasted against the Maximum Damage Advantage approach, repeated here:

2d6K, 0 end (+1/2), Maximum Damage (+1): 30 + ((30 * 1.5) -30) {+15} + ((30 * 2) -30) {+30} == 30 + 15 + 30 = 75)

 

I think that your awarding even -1/4 limitation is generous. After all 12 BODY would be equivalent to standard effect (-0).

 

Thus the price of the limited 4D6 versus the advantaged 2D6 is 90 real to 75 real. The reduced endurance adds 30 points to the power cost whereas it adds only 15 points to the advantaged power.

 

Also, there is an runtime in play difference of the Advantaged approach removing the need to roll automagically -- the effect always does MAX DAMAGE so no die roll is required; this speeds play and also from a design perspective allows the modeling of some "consistent" effects that do a flat amount of effect every time.

 

The double dice w/ limit approach still requires rolling and dice counting with the extra step of applying the arbitrary cap. Usually the outcome will be as predicted but sometimes (a crappy roll) below expected yield.

 

I prefer the advantage route because it looks much more elegant - with standard effect you take out the dice rolling and the crappy result possibility.

 

It would be nice to have certain things change the base cost against which other advantages would apply - that would remove the discrepancy.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon always does maximum damage

 

OK. I was thinking that KS was saying that a +1 advantage changed the base points against which advantages would be applied.

 

A closer reading of his post showed that he was not, however...

 

 

 

I think that your awarding even -1/4 limitation is generous. After all 12 BODY would be equivalent to standard effect (-0).

 

Thus the price of the limited 4D6 versus the advantaged 2D6 is 90 real to 75 real. The reduced endurance adds 30 points to the power cost whereas it adds only 15 points to the advantaged power.

 

 

 

I prefer the advantage route because it looks much more elegant - with standard effect you take out the dice rolling and the crappy result possibility.

 

It would be nice to have certain things change the base cost against which other advantages would apply - that would remove the discrepancy.

 

 

Doc

 

The difficulty to my mind is that power modifiers do not change the base cost of the power - that simply is not how they work. Doing it that way will inevitably cause confusion, and requires houseruling anyway, whereas SE is an official rule