Balancing Mental Powers

[handleyj]

So I have to admit that I am a Brick by nature. But I'm GM'ing for a character that is a Mentalist, and I'm having a hard time making combat a challenge for this PC. A sample of his powers include:

 

Ego - 26 (ECV 9)

Mind Control - 12d6

Mental Illusions - 12d6

Ego Attack - 7d6

Telepathy - 11d6

 

And I find that not many (published) villains have Mental Defense. And not many (published) villains have an ECV above 5 (and most are lower than that).

 

On top of that, when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6), the villains basically only get 1 Breakout Roll. On the villain's next Phase, he gets to make a Breakout Roll. If he misses it, then he has to wait for a full turn before attempting another. And usually he's a gonner before that happens. If he does survive the Turn, and if he misses that next Breakout Roll, then forget about it ... he has to wait for a Minute (of game time) to try again (what is that, like 4.5 Turns?)! AND! Mental Illusions (and Mind Control) don't cost END to maintain. The victim of the power just has to make Breakout Rolls until they succeed.

 

What I don't want to do is start giving all villains some Mental Defense, or artificially raise their ECVs. I find that HERO System usually has some way of keeping itself balanced, but I don't see it in the case of Mental Powers.

 

What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete? Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Also let me point out that this is a "standard" 350 point campaign with the Standard Super Heroic limits as stated on page 28 of the big book. Most of the other PCs have settled on 60-point powers instead of the 80 points suggested by the rule book.

 

The powers in the top post above are all about 70 points. I don't mind making him lower them to 60 points -- but that's still 10d6. And of course, then I'm scared about what he'll spend those "saved" points on! ;-)

[drunkonduty]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Well, I'm a brick at heart myself. So I hear where you're coming from. Finding challenges for players can be hard enough and more so when it's not in your own specific area of interest.

 

OK the first thing to do is ask your player to reduce the powers to 60 active points. Explain that you're having enough trouble thinking of interesting challenges as it is and just need them to be within campaign limits to make things easier. And don't be scared of where the points go: a character having a broader range of powers/skills/etc. makes the character more useful in more situations. Helps avoid player boredom and/or overly narrow game focus.

 

Here's a few other ideas. Mix and match them to change things up. Note I said 'change things up.' You don't want to completely nerf the Mentalist, just give them more of a challenge. Most of the time they should get the effect from their powers that they expect. Remember the player is playing a mentalist because they prefer the fun of confusing and bamboozling the enemy to smashing them through sky-scrapers. (I don't know how this can be, but it takes all kinds. )

 

1. Give the opposition a mentalist of their own. The mentalist can use their powers to counteract the PC's.

2. Psych lims. can make the target needed higher than normal. If the PC does not intentionally aim for this higher level the power does not work. And this can be done without being cheesy at all. For instance: Loyal to Team seems a reasonable psych lim. and it will make mind control that much harder. (although probably not illusions.)

3. In the case you mentioned, making friends look like enemies: In some situations the target may get a bonus to the Breakout roll for situational circumstances. Like if there's 2 of the enemy brick, one of them standing where one of the target's team mates should be and using that friend's signature attack you may decide this justifies giving the target a bonus.

4. In the case of an enemy like VIPER or a Gadgeteer they have the opportunity to go in prepared (assuming they expect to run into the mentalist.) Give the targets some higher Ego and/or Mental defence in a focus.

5. If the target's team realise the target is mind controlled et.al. they can take drastic action to bring them down like targeting vulnerabilities or simply stay out of the mind controlled target's way.

6. The Comeback. Next time the bad guys encounter the Heroes they know to be careful of the Mentalist and target them first and hard.

 

Cheers mate, hope this helps.

[rauer]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

4. In the case of an enemy like VIPER or a Gadgeteer they have the opportunity to go in prepared (assuming they expect to run into the mentalist.) Give the targets some higher Ego and/or Mental defence in a focus.

 

6. The Comeback. Next time the bad guys encounter the Heroes they know to be careful of the Mentalist and target them first and hard.

 

Cheers mate, hope this helps.

 

These two bring back memories for me, and are good to note. Enemies can learn, and some of them can adapt better than others. If the mentalist PC (or, for that matter, any of the PCs) is extremely effective in one encounter, then when the same bad guys face the same PC group again the bad guys might have a new tactic to try and deal with what defeated them before. In the case of VIPER and other agencies, they might actually build files on their enemies and pass them around to some/all of their operatives/nests.

 

This actually reminds me of an old Battletech game I played in. One character had some stunning die rolls and downed an enemy mech every round for either four or five rounds. In the next session we faced another part of the same enemy 'army', and this part had been briefed on the prior battle and ordered to take out the lucky PC first, since he was clearly 'far more of a threat than any of the others'.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

One character had some stunning die rolls and downed an enemy mech every round for either four or five rounds. In the next session we faced another part of the same enemy 'army', and this part had been briefed on the prior battle and ordered to take out the lucky PC first, since he was clearly 'far more of a threat than any of the others'.

 

LOL! That's just mean.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Do the same thing to the heroes.

 

Once the team brick is Mental Illusioned into beating the mentalist to a pulp, he won't think it's fair anymore...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Mentalist heroes often close off some avenues of storytelling when they are active members of a team (see Martian Manhunter w/JLA & Marvel Girl w/X-Men). Often, these characters are some of the toughest '1 on 1' characters of their respective teams.

 

They can be overwhelmed or exhausted though. Mentalist characters usually don't have a lot of END or REC to begin with (compared to other archtypes) and will probably tire more quickly as a result.

 

Are you currently requiring the players to keep track of END use?

 

Here is link to I-Mind, a Marvel Girl style mentalist I built years ago with END costs in mind.

[Karma]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Apart from the 'HIT the bald guy... sorry mentalist' approach for the rematch. There are some other ways of coping. remember 'Alien' is a different subset of mind as are 'Animal' and 'machine'. While a brick can put an alien, bear or robot through the wall just as easily as each other a mentalist (unless he's bought additional classes of mind) is useless against them. Now I'm not saying make all your encounters with non-humans, but once the underworld realises that the team has a mentalist they might decide to bring along a few attack dogs trained to go after bald guys (or whatever is a 'distinctive feature' of the mentalist), or they might hire 'the Robot maker', or some Alien bounty-hunter. These are just good sense when dealing with mentalists not 'The GM is out to get me' (which a RKA Mental Damage Shield, would be, in case you want to know). Of course you should team these 'anti-mentalist protections' with humans for the mentalist to effect so that it becomes a case of 'protect the mentalist' for the rest of the team instead of 'stand back and let the mentalist handle it' (which it seems to have been up to now).

 

Just some ideas.

 

Heh heh Killing Mental Damage Shield "I make him think his team mate is the enemy" "Yes and meanwhile your head explodes." Heh heh.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

One other way to shut down a mentalist...

 

Mental powers are typically LOS.

 

Put them in a darkness field and voila - no LOS.

 

Alternately, use an opaque force wall. None of the listed powers will do much to a force wall.

 

Or flash them.

[Peregrine]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

One other way to shut down a mentalist...

 

Mental powers are typically LOS.

 

Put them in a darkness field and voila - no LOS.

 

Alternately, use an opaque force wall. None of the listed powers will do much to a force wall.

 

Or flash them.

 

"Mind Scan ... is a Targeting Sense for other Mental Powers." HSR p. 206; it's an odd mentalist who doesn't have Mind Scan, and a poor GM who bans Mind Scan just to 'rein in' mentalist PCs.

[Utech]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6)

Reverse the situation. If you suddenly find that your friends look like enemies, what would you do? Would you immediately attack them? What would your teammates do? Might they find ways to point out who are the enemies and who are the villains?

 

It's important to remember that while Mental Illusions play with the target's senses, common sense is the last to fall.

 

Mind Control is another animal. It can be used to make a target attack his friend no matter what his friend looks like. But that kind of control usually requires some pretty high rolls on the part of the mentalist. You blow the roll and you've done nothing but alert the target and put a big target on your shirt.

 

In my experience, mentalists are most unbalancing out of combat. That is usually handled by either

 

1. ensuring that the PC has a clear set of morals that prevent him from taking his advantages to the unbalancing point, or (and)
   
2. putting legal restrictions on the use of mental powers.
   

 

If your mentalist is too unbalancing in combat, make sure that some of your bad guys think things through before lashing out.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

"Mind Scan ... is a Targeting Sense for other Mental Powers." HSR p. 206; it's an odd mentalist who doesn't have Mind Scan' date=' and a poor GM who bans Mind Scan just to 'rein in' mentalist PCs.[/quote']

 

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.

 

On another note, I'd think that enemy-switching stunt is a +20, IMHO, plus there's the issue of the powers in question. Sure, you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.

 

...

 

About the only way I've found to include a semi-useful Mind Scan on a 350 point character is to build it with the Cumulative Advantage and put it inside a 2 slot-at-a-time Multipower.

 

See my version of the DCU's Martian Manhunter for an example of this.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

 

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

 

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

 

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

 

Was this any help?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

 

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

 

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

 

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

 

Was this any help?

 

Mental Illusions are in the mind; it affects all the target's senses. If Wolverine was successfully affected by 'Sabretooth just went running past' as an illusion, he would smell Sabretooth as well.

[ideasmith]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

 

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

 

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

 

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

 

Was this any help?

 

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

 

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

[Balabanto]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

1) Try using agents. That automatically lowers the character's effectiveness. If he gets to affect one agent, then three or four agents just blast him. Who cares if a guy with a 10 EGO and an 8d6 EB shoots another guy with a 10 EG0 and an 8d6 EB?

 

2) Build a brick who's powers are based on his psychokinetic field and give HIM mental defense. Let the misery commence.

 

3) Entangle the mentalist in a 5d6 Entangle that stops sight. Not only have you shut off all his powers, but his STR will likely prevent him from escaping. He's done.

 

4) MOST agencies and supervillain teams have a "Get the Mentalist First" strategy. If he's not hiding behind cover or something, tag him right away. Force him to dodge, abort to throw up a force wall, or get behind some cover.

 

5) Not everything has to be about his hero ID. If he's super-effective, have the villain agencies find out times when he's alone, and offer recruitment. TEMPT him. Of all the character roles, the moral slippery slope for the mentalist is the steepest. Use it.

 

6) An enemy mentalist can be this PC's worst nightmare. Tamper with the minds of HIS friends. And yes, I have run combats where, literally, no one knew who anyone was, where they were, etc. Everyone's places were switched, there was no idea of who was who, and "The Jeep of Doctor Brutallo" was disabled.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

 

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

 

Yes, but an obviously bad wording of the initial suggestion could still make a difference in the final result (just like using a 'Wish' spell in D&D).

[CoreBrute]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

 

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

 

My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Houston GM]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete?

Make antagonists that aren't people. Use "Villainy Amok" as an example. One scenario involves rescuing people from a burning building.

 

Mechanon has lots of minions. They're all robots.

 

If your mentalist is that effective, it's not unreasonable to have 1/4 of the adventures revolve around problems that can't be solved by messing with human minds.

 

What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete?

Rule #1: Don't give minions sensitive information.

 

Rule #2: Or deliberately give minions sensitive information so the mentalist can obtain it via Telepathy. Now set up your trap. Bombs are nice because they don't have brains.

 

Rule #3: As soon as the Mentalist is detected, everyone shoots him first. (Unless someone qualifies as bigger threat.)

 

Rule #4: Send the pawns in first. Mentalists can't target 20 minions at once.

 

Rule #5: Just because a villain sees an illusion doesn't mean he believes the illusion. I won't apply this rule unless the Mental Illusion is blatant (like an ally suddenly looking like an enemy).

 

 

Rule #6: As others have mentioned, eliminate the Mentailist's ability to target enemies.

 

Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?

I'd give a major villain 10 points of Mental Defense and 18 EGO (minimum). That makes them almost difficult to take down with mental powers as with any other other means of attack. High-powered villains get much more of both.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Some really good ideas here! Thanks guys. I want to respond and ask further questions on some of them in particular, but I'm on my cell phone and it's a pain to type too much. However I do have one simple question for now: how bad would it be to house rule that everyone gets a breakout roll during post segment 12. So a breakout roll on the victim's first phase after attack, then every post seg 12 there after?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

On top of that, when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6), the villains basically only get 1 Breakout Roll. On the villain's next Phase, he gets to make a Breakout Roll. If he misses it, then he has to wait for a full turn before attempting another. And usually he's a gonner before that happens. If he does survive the Turn, and if he misses that next Breakout Roll, then forget about it ... he has to wait for a Minute (of game time) to try again (what is that, like 4.5 Turns?)! AND! Mental Illusions (and Mind Control) don't cost END to maintain. The victim of the power just has to make Breakout Rolls until they succeed.

 

Where are you getting the idea that he has to wait for a full turn if he misses his first breakout roll and a full minute if he misses the second? I just read the entire section on Mental Illusion and glanced at the Mind Control section as well and didn't see that anywhere. Maybe I’m missing something, but I always though a character received a breakout roll every phase they had, just like you get a breakout roll versus being grabbed each phase you have. Someone please correct me (and site a source) if I’m way off base here or something.

 

Some really good ideas here! Thanks guys. I want to respond and ask further questions on some of them in particular' date=' but I'm on my cell phone and it's a pain to type too much. However I do have one simple question for now: how bad would it be to house rule that everyone gets a breakout roll during post segment 12. So a breakout roll on the victim's first phase after attack, then every post seg 12 there after?[/quote']

 

See above.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Where are you getting the idea that he has to wait for a full turn if he misses his first breakout roll and a full minute if he misses the second? I just read the entire section on Mental Illusion and glanced at the Mind Control section as well and didn't see that anywhere. Maybe I’m missing something' date=' but I always though a character received a breakout roll every phase they had, just like you get a breakout roll versus being grabbed each phase you have. Someone please correct me (and site a source) if I’m way off base here or something[/quote']

 

Try reading the section on Mental Powers.

 

After the initial attempt to break free [which occurs in the character's first phase - HN]' date=' the victim can re-attempt the breakout roll at +1 for each step on the Time Chart. The character thus gets to roll at +1 after 1 Turn has passed, +2 after 1 Minute has passed, and so forth. (The victim does [i']not[/i] get to make a Breakout Roll on each of his Phases - only when specified by the Time Chart.)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Thank you. I'm surprised that that is not alluded to in the sections that actually deal with the individual powers. Thanks for the reference.

[incrdbil]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

So I have to admit that I am a Brick by nature. But I'm GM'ing for a character that is a Mentalist, and I'm having a hard time making combat a challenge for this PC. A sample of his powers include:

 

Ego - 26 (ECV 9)

Mind Control - 12d6

Mental Illusions - 12d6

Ego Attack - 7d6

Telepathy - 11d6

 

What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete? Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?

 

recall--without paying End--seperate from the power, the breakout roll does improve.

 

A few dice fo flash can play hell with a mentalist. Darkness, images, etc. Or, when in doubt..robots.