Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

[Ragdoll]

I've noticed a general trend to disallow Find Weakness in some of the games I've played in. Is it a popular trend or have I just had like bad luck? =?

 

*curious*

[Greywind]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I use it. I've never had a problem with it. Armor Piercing on a skill roll. Gets ugly if the attack it is used with already has the AP advantage.

[The Hawk God]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Never had a problem with it myself.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I thought the problem was specifically that you could use it over and over again, with each successful roll it allowed you to half the defenses again, and such. That's one argument I've heard about.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

It's effectively a Cumulative Armor Piercing without requiring the Advantage on the Attack.

 

Even one use of Find Weakness can turn a 12D6 Energy Blast into a 12D6 Armor Piercing Energy Blast.

 

It's abusable, but not inherently abusive. In campaigns with Active Point and/or Damage Class Caps it could be argued that Find Weakness is a 'bypass' to those.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I've never had a problem with it per se, and allow it.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Don't forget that it takes an Attack action to use, and each successive use upon a single target, whether successful or not, incurs a -2 penalty within the same encounter.

 

Considering that each level of Find Weakness costs 5 CP apiece while Lack of Weakness is a mere 1 CP per point, I don't see what's wrong with it.

 

Granted, Overall levels apply to Find Weakness as well, but they cost 10 CP apiece in turn.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

It's one of those things that a GM has to monitor closely. It can be very abusive if left uncontrolled.

 

Of course, it's also pretty expensive.... that helps balance it out considerably.

[Starlight]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I've noticed a general trend to disallow Find Weakness in some of the games I've played in. Is it a popular trend or have I just had like bad luck? =?

 

*curious*

 

The pragmatic answer, I would suspect, is that Find Weakness makes the GM's job somewhat harder. There's always a certain amount of luck involved in the resolution of any combat. But in general dice luck plays an even handed game and experienced GMs can usually predict how much of a challenge any given opposition will present.

 

Throwing Find Weakness into the equation can make the luck factor considerably more significant. The tough villain that's designed to give the hero term a good workout can go down in a single hit after player X gets a unlikely two or three successes with Find Weakness. Conversely, player Y fails to make even one successful Find Weakness roll and is then reduced to virtual ineffectiveness during the engagement. Neither of these outcomes is desirable from the GM's viewpoint.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

After about 3 or 4 successful rolls the cumulative AP effect approaches ever closer to becoming a NND effect that is difficult at best to incorporate into established damage class caps.

 

A more subtle reason that I personally dislike Find Weakness is that it introduces yet another type of defense that players wanting to play 'tough' characters have to consider.

 

Also, the RAW (rules as written) definition of what is considered 'Resistant Defense' and 'Non-Resistant Defense' with respect to Find Weakness is counter-intuitive and not the same as what stops killing damage.

 

'Normal' defenses that have been made 'resistant' by the Damage Resistance Power are actually considered to still be 'normal defenses' with respect to Find Weakness!

[lemming]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

It's one of those things that can be devastating, or pretty useless in higher powered games. But yes, needs monitoring, like most powers.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

After about 3 or 4 successful rolls the cumulative AP effect approaches ever closer to becoming a NND effect that is difficult at best to incorporate into established damage class caps.

 

A more subtle reason that I personally dislike Find Weakness is that it introduces yet another type of defense that players wanting to play 'tough' characters have to consider.

 

Also, the RAW (rules as written) definition of what is considered 'Resistant Defense' and 'Non-Resistant Defense' with respect to Find Weakness is counter-intuitive and not the same as what stops killing damage.

 

'Normal' defenses that have been made 'resistant' by the Damage Resistance Power are actually considered to still be 'normal defenses' with respect to Find Weakness!

 

Not to get too OT, but I think that that's an indirect reason that Resistant Defenses should just be a Power Advantage: because then there do not need to be inherently Resistant Defenses.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I dislike Find Weakness because if you want this power, it should be armor piercing with an activation roll, not a separate power.

 

Sniping and Find Weakness is absolutely disgusting.

 

THe problem with Find Weakness is that if you take one minute to study your target, in most games, the character's average defenses will be 2-3 points. That's right. 2-3 points. The base time for Find Weakness is a half phase, so the rules for the time chart now apply.

 

So, on pre phase 12, I find weakness. Keep in mind, this doesn't trigger Danger Sense, because I am not attacking him.

 

Phase 12, I find weakness twice more. He now has 1/8 of his base defense. That means if he started at 32, he's got 4 now.

 

Phase 2 or 3. BANG.

 

Target is down.

 

Next action. BANG.

 

Target is dead. Make a new character.

 

No other ability in the game, that's right, in the entire game, is so valuble for so little point cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I would have someone using Find Weakness trigger Danger Sense personally.

 

Also, you will need a pretty high roll for 3 successful attempts. That's not an insignificant number of Character Points used. Though, granted, it can be devastating when used.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I dislike Find Weakness because if you want this power, it should be armor piercing with an activation roll, not a separate power.

 

Sniping and Find Weakness is absolutely disgusting.

 

THe problem with Find Weakness is that if you take one minute to study your target, in most games, the character's average defenses will be 2-3 points. That's right. 2-3 points. The base time for Find Weakness is a half phase, so the rules for the time chart now apply.

 

So, on pre phase 12, I find weakness. Keep in mind, this doesn't trigger Danger Sense, because I am not attacking him.

 

Phase 12, I find weakness twice more. He now has 1/8 of his base defense. That means if he started at 32, he's got 4 now.

 

Phase 2 or 3. BANG.

 

Target is down.

 

Next action. BANG.

 

Target is dead. Make a new character.

 

No other ability in the game, that's right, in the entire game, is so valuble for so little point cost.

 

This is assuming that you have PSL's versus the Range Modifier (since you are sniping) and that you are taking the same amount of time to prepare each usage so as to counteract the cumulate -2 penalty, right?

 

On a similar note, this is assuming that they do not have any levels of the far cheaper Lack of Weakness nor are you accounting for the fact that Find Weakness still costs a bundle, especially for characters with lower point costs.

 

It's interesting how you dismissed Danger Sense in your example, since the character is preparing to attack, which, speaking for myself here, would qualify as endangering a character but that judgment aside, you still did not bring up Danger Sense again as if to say that it never would matter in such a situation.

 

IOW, you should have left out Danger Sense entirely as an extenuating circumstance.

 

Methinks that we don't see eye to eye on Find Weakness.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I would have someone using Find Weakness trigger Danger Sense personally.

 

Also, you will need a pretty high roll for 3 successful attempts. That's not an insignificant number of Character Points used. Though, granted, it can be devastating when used.

 

Dang, beat me to it and in fewer words.

[ideasmith]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Don't forget that it takes an Attack action to use' date=' [/quote']

 

The rule book says "Half Phase Action". (5ER page 174)

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

The rule book says "Half Phase Action". (5ER page 174)

Yep, I checked it afterwards and had a slice of humble pie.

 

It was... okay.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Okay. Wow. O.o What about this as an example. An energy blaster. He's got an 8d6 EB and purchased Find Weakness 11- with his EB for 10 points.

 

Would that be considered too powerful for say a 250 point game?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Probably not.

 

Compare it to the following:

 

Energy Blast 8D6; plus Armor Piercing for Energy Blast; Linked: Energy Blast; Activation: 11-; Can Only Be Used When Character Takes Full Phase Action

 

For a Full Phase Action the character has an 11- chance of having an 8D6 Armor Piercing Attack.

 

If he pushes things for his luck, he could get a second Action in with Find Weakness at 9- to go against 1/4 of the Target's defenses. Chances are that second one won't work. So you've got a moderately similar build.

 

What you really have to ask yourself is; will the occasional ability to have an 8D6 Armor Piercing attack break your campaign?

 

If no - you're good to go.

If yes - you might want to talk to the Player about what else they can do with those 10 Points.

 

Also, ask the Player if they intend to increase their Find Weakness Roll or not, i.e. ask them for their future plans.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I might be jumping to conclusions here, but I'm guessing that a campaign with a Find Weakness sniper problem might also find itself at odds with Mentalist snipers as well.

 

That is to say that many things can be abused but the GM should exercise caution with such things in the game.

 

Besides, Find Weakness is a "!" power for a reason.

[Peregrine]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

The main objection I'm hearing amounts to "it takes control away from the GM". And, quite frankly, it comes with a tone of "the GM should have more control over the outcome".

 

As a separate point, if you wanted to replace Find Weakness with a fully equivalent Advantage, what would you need to add to AP with an activation roll to handle the multiple attempts function. Cumulative?

[hfergus]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

My main problem with find weakness is that it can be used again and again to further reduce defense. Yes, it is a "!" power. Yes, it gets harder and harder. Yes, it is not cheap. I allow it, but never allow sniping with it. If this is thrown out, the opponent can attack you while you are finding weakness. This balances it some. I normally say you have to be close to use it and that helps.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

...

 

As a separate point, if you wanted to replace Find Weakness with a fully equivalent Advantage, what would you need to add to AP with an activation roll to handle the multiple attempts function. Cumulative?

 

It's probably easier to start at the other extreme with the following:

 

Naked Advantage: NND, Does Body

Limitations on the Naked Advantage: Requires Skill Roll, Gradual Effect.

[Peregrine]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I allow it' date=' but never allow sniping with it. If this is thrown out, the opponent can attack you while you are finding weakness. This balances it some. I normally say you have to be close to use it and that helps.[/quote']

 

Not picking on you, because others in this thread have expressed similar sentiments. But this is a downside to the cinematic tone of HERO in general (and I say this as a proponent of cinematic gaming). Realistic tactics calls for the use of "remote firepower" - snipers, indirect fire, etc. Removing the possibility of such tactics produces a more cinematic combat, which is sometimes more viscerally satisfying, but ignores the lessons of reality. Such firepower is used in reality because it is extraordinarily effective - which is why so many people want to disallow it in gaming!