Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

[pinecone]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I've noticed a general trend to disallow Find Weakness in some of the games I've played in. Is it a popular trend or have I just had like bad luck? =?

 

*curious*

Some people have the heebie jeebies about it....probibly just bad luck, though things like this run in cycles so it may be a local "freak out" going on....

[bubba smith]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

maybe they think theonly character who should have find weakness is karnak the shatterer from marvels inhumans

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

My real issue here' date=' of course, is the cost of Armor Piercing relative to this power. If you buy Armor Piercing, you get the shaft, because it's more expensive to harden your defenses than it is to buy Lack of Weakness (A VERY difficult power to justify for most PC's).[/quote']

 

10 points LoW, OIF Trenchcoat is suggested in Dark Champions.

 

If a trenchcoat is not your style, then try a cape: 10 points LoW, OIF Cape, Does not work on shots from the front.

 

Darkness or Light Power characters can take it quite easily, as can anyone with a glowing FF: 10 points LoW (You can't see me clearly enough to Find Weakness), Nonpersistent.

 

It's a breeze for speedsters and martial artists, especially ones with Defense Maneuver 4: 5 points LoW (I don't hold still that long), Nonpersistent (for DM 4 or speedsters) or Linked to DM (for the rest).

 

Lack of Weakness isn't just about not having a weak spot, it can also be about making the weak spot hard to find!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I went back and reread the description of Find Weakness from the rulebook, as well as the FAQ for it.

 

First of all, the only Modifier listed for it which grants a bonus to the Find Weakness roll is "Preparing a Phase," which grants +1. There's nothing in the book or FAQ about any further benefit from taking longer time on the Time Chart. Find Weakness is a Power, not a Skill, so there's no compelling reason to apply rules for Skill use to Find Weakness.

 

Second, uses of Find Weakness cumulatively halving the Defenses of a particular target cease for that battle the first time the attacker fails his Find Weakness Roll against a target. Moreover, if someone fails any roll to Find Weakness for a target, including their first attempt, they may make NO further attempts against that target during that battle.

 

Third, regarding Find Weakness and sniping, the Range Modifier applies to make it more difficult to succeed at the roll as distance increases. According to the FAQ, Enhanced Senses or Penalty Skill Levels do NOT improve your chances with Find Weakness. If you want to offset the Range Modifier you have to buy 5-point levels specifically for each +1 with Find Weakness as per normal, but can take a -1 Limitation if they're only vs. the Range Modifier; or else buy No Range Modifier as an Advantage on Find Weakness. (Combat Skill Levels in general don't affect Find Weakness rolls, but 10-point Overall Levels can be used.)

[lemming]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I wanted to post that, but didn't feel like doing the research that would of confirmed my thoughts.

 

Find Weakness has changed a bit since it's first publication.

 

It's still one of the powers that is very useful, or not very, depending on campaign.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Not picking on you' date=' because others in this thread have expressed similar sentiments. But this is a downside to the cinematic tone of HERO in general (and I say this as a proponent of cinematic gaming). Realistic tactics calls for the use of "remote firepower" - snipers, indirect fire, etc. Removing the possibility of such tactics produces a more cinematic combat, which is sometimes more viscerally satisfying, but ignores the lessons of reality. Such firepower is used in reality because it is extraordinarily effective - which is why so many people want to disallow it in gaming![/quote']

 

I agree with this sentiment.

 

 

On, sniping - in some games I don't mind it. In some games I completely expect it. In some games it's extremely out of character.

 

In a Fantasy Game, it's difficult to snipe in genre, but if you find a way I don't see an issue.

In a Modern Game, I fully expect at least one sniper, possibly two.

In a Superhero Game it breaks genre for me - and I don't think it's appropriate at all here.

 

I've never had a problem Mechanically with Find Weakness. Sometimes it's just a good Genre choice. Is about the only complaint I could possibly muster.

 

Yes. Exactly. It is a genre by genre thing. In comics, a sniper is usually a plot mechanic. No one wants to see the hero drilled in the head with a Barrett .50 cal with no opportunity to avoid it. Sure, it would be the smart thing for the average mook to do, but it isn't in genre. How many times would Batman be dead already of any one of his foes had adopted this mentality?

 

I know one of the things I've consistently used it for is a Demolitions Expert.

 

Find Weakness: rDefenses, Objects Only.

 

Spend some time and you can properly place charges to detonate a building without needing to kludge a stupidly high attack....

 

I like this. Repped.

 

The GM can always limit the stacking use of Find Weakness. Sniping with Find Weakness can get ugly' date=' yes, but consider what would happen to, say, Dr. Doom, if the Punisher managed to put a bullet through his eye hole. Doom doesn't run around constantly with his force field up.[/quote']

 

See my comments above. This is not possible in a comic book world. Any writer who turned that script in to me if I were a Marvel editor would be very disappointed in my reply. If I were a GM and someone made a character who was essentially a highly trained normal armed with a "real weapon" who could kill Dr. Destroyer with a punk move like that, I would disallow it. Even in a rubber science laden, quasi-mystical setting like the CU, there has to be an established pecking order. Unless you are going for high comedy, Squirrel Girl does not beat Dr. Doom. The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe was a joke, and I hope everyone took it that way, as entertaining as it was.

 

Find Weakness isn't a skill; The time chart's irrelevant, PSL's don't apply only Overall Skill Levels or the 5 point per +1 buy up matter.

 

The power description is clear how extra time applies to the power, it does give the GM the leaway to make extra time very powerful but I've never seen one apply that option.

 

You can only apply Find Weakness to 1 type of Defense at a time (PD/ED or Armor/Force Field or Exotic )

 

I think people are tending to react to the Find Weakness from 1-2 editions ago rather than the current version which is considerably less formidable.

 

I went back and reread the description of Find Weakness from the rulebook, as well as the FAQ for it.

 

First of all, the only Modifier listed for it which grants a bonus to the Find Weakness roll is "Preparing a Phase," which grants +1. There's nothing in the book or FAQ about any further benefit from taking longer time on the Time Chart. Find Weakness is a Power, not a Skill, so there's no compelling reason to apply rules for Skill use to Find Weakness.

 

Second, uses of Find Weakness cumulatively halving the Defenses of a particular target cease for that battle the first time the attacker fails his Find Weakness Roll against a target. Moreover, if someone fails any roll to Find Weakness for a target, including their first attempt, they may make NO further attempts against that target during that battle.

 

Third, regarding Find Weakness and sniping, the Range Modifier applies to make it more difficult to succeed at the roll as distance increases. According to the FAQ, Enhanced Senses or Penalty Skill Levels do NOT improve your chances with Find Weakness. If you want to offset the Range Modifier you have to buy 5-point levels specifically for each +1 with Find Weakness as per normal, but can take a -1 Limitation if they're only vs. the Range Modifier; or else buy No Range Modifier as an Advantage on Find Weakness. (Combat Skill Levels in general don't affect Find Weakness rolls, but 10-point Overall Levels can be used.)

 

You gentlemen are exactly right. The only major problem I see with FW is its potential to be used with an attack that is already Armor Piercing.

[korovan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

But the Demolitions Skill (5er page 58) already covers this:

 

 

 

I don't care how much of an expert a character is at demolitions, he is not going to be able to use just a firecracker to take down a bridge. But allowing Find Weakness to be used this way suggests that a character with it could.

 

 

Actually, no. All Find Weakness would do, at its very best, would be to eliminate all or nearly all of the bridge's Defense. Its entire BODY would remain to be destroyed, which would take rather more than a firecracker...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Actually' date=' no. All Find Weakness would do, at its very best, would be to eliminate all or nearly all of the bridge's Defense. Its entire BODY would remain to be destroyed, which would take rather more than a firecracker...[/quote']

 

Have you ever built a house of cards or played jenga? Removing a single key component can bring the whole thing down because gravity does most of the work. There is still a minimum amount of effect needed to exceed the 'base defense' of the weakest common material. A perfect example of this is the demolition expert from the movie "Force 10 From Navorone". He states that he simply does not have enough explosives left to take out the bridge no matter how expertly placed. His leap of brilliance was to take out the dam instead.

 

The point that I was attempting to make was that Find Weakness is already a simplified form of 'targeting a weak spot' which is what the Demolitions skill already does anyway. The optional Hit Location rules also do this on the character level. Neither actually reduce the defenses of the targets except to target the lowest amount of those defenses in cases of partial coverage/activate on X- 'armor'.

 

The key issue here is not all that different than the old Stun Lottery debate with Killing Attacks. Similar to rolling above average numbers on the killing attack Body and/or Stun Multiple dice, the successful use of Find Weakness can multiply the effectiveness of the attack it's used with far beyond the value of the points invested in Find Weakness alone. A character with the ability will almost always attempt to use it to make their chosen attack gain a NND + Does Body like advantage. The fact that this doesn't happen all the time doesn't discount the fact that it does sometimes happen AND that some level of success is fairly common.

[Lucius]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I'm pretty sure that it was concocted after the main rulebook (but then again, before the revised 5th edition).

 

On the contrary. Steve Long used his Resurrection, only on dead rules, power, to bring back a Power from Champions III.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Dead Palindromedary

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I'm pretty sure that it was concocted after the main rulebook (but then again, before the revised 5th edition).

 

Reciting from memory here:

 

Piercing is an adder that directly reduces a targets defenses point by point.

 

It costs 2 CP for Normal attacks, 3 for everything else (Killing, Flash, Mental, Power) if my memory serves me correctly.

 

It was originally concocted for bullets with slightly higher penetration power, but it can easily be used for greater effect in other games.

 

It is a "Stop Sign" ability though, since it basically allows a character to slice through defenses like a hot knife through butter.

 

Lastly, it could be purchases separately from a power with an Activation Roll to simulate that whole "success ratio" effect.

 

 

Thanks , I do like that much much better. I just didn't think dark champions had much to offer me. It didn't occur to me there would be decent new/old mechanics like the above.

 

Checking my old books I can find 1st,2nd and 4th editions but no 3rd so I guess I missed piercing the 1st time around.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Suprisingly, it hasn't come up much in my games. Nevertheless, I've read up on the rules regarding Find Weakness and am confident I can handle it if it does.

[Kenn]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Thanks , I do like that much much better. I just didn't think dark champions had much to offer me. It didn't occur to me there would be decent new/old mechanics like the above.

 

Checking my old books I can find 1st,2nd and 4th editions but no 3rd so I guess I missed piercing the 1st time around.

 

It was in Champions III when I first saw it.

[Greywind]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

See my comments above. This is not possible in a comic book world. Any writer who turned that script in to me if I were a Marvel editor would be very disappointed in my reply. If I were a GM and someone made a character who was essentially a highly trained normal armed with a "real weapon" who could kill Dr. Destroyer with a punk move like that' date=' I would disallow it. Even in a rubber science laden, quasi-mystical setting like the CU, there has to be an established pecking order. Unless you are going for high comedy, Squirrel Girl does not beat Dr. Doom. The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe was a joke, and I hope everyone took it that way, as entertaining as it was. [/quote']Yes it is possible and at the same time, easily explained away. How many versions of LMDs did Doom have fully programmed to believe they were Doom?

[Spence]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Well' date=' they are all kinds of personal problems that different groups have with the Hero rles, you may have just played with a number of GMs that either do not like the FW power for personal reasonsor they have seen the power abused inplay before and did not want to see this repeated. The sad thing is that like all the powers and rules in the system, FW is only really abusive if the GM allows it to be, whether through misinformation as to how the power works or because they do not incorporate into their games the fact that the power is being used. But thats my 2 cents, YMMV.[/quote']

 

And a shiny 2 cents it is. And well said.

 

In the end, it is like every other thing in Hero. A game mechanic designed to achieve a specific game effect. If the GM doesn’t allow or see the effect as being a fit for the campaign, the GM can disallow it. Depending on the style/genre/etc of a game many items can be disallowed or mandated as must haves. In the end it really doesn’t matter because pretty much any concept can be built via a different path. If a person gets locked into the mechanic because they think it has some big advantage rather than arriving at it from the effect, then there is something more going on.

 

and that is my 2 cents

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

In my defense, I first entered the world of HERO with the 5th edition.

 

But it's all good.

[pinecone]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I went back and reread the description of Find Weakness from the rulebook, as well as the FAQ for it.

 

First of all, the only Modifier listed for it which grants a bonus to the Find Weakness roll is "Preparing a Phase," which grants +1. There's nothing in the book or FAQ about any further benefit from taking longer time on the Time Chart. Find Weakness is a Power, not a Skill, so there's no compelling reason to apply rules for Skill use to Find Weakness.

 

Second, uses of Find Weakness cumulatively halving the Defenses of a particular target cease for that battle the first time the attacker fails his Find Weakness Roll against a target. Moreover, if someone fails any roll to Find Weakness for a target, including their first attempt, they may make NO further attempts against that target during that battle.

 

Third, regarding Find Weakness and sniping, the Range Modifier applies to make it more difficult to succeed at the roll as distance increases. According to the FAQ, Enhanced Senses or Penalty Skill Levels do NOT improve your chances with Find Weakness. If you want to offset the Range Modifier you have to buy 5-point levels specifically for each +1 with Find Weakness as per normal, but can take a -1 Limitation if they're only vs. the Range Modifier; or else buy No Range Modifier as an Advantage on Find Weakness. (Combat Skill Levels in general don't affect Find Weakness rolls, but 10-point Overall Levels can be used.)

 

Thanx...so often when a claim is made that a rule is "broken", it's because it's being put in use in a broken way....Personaly I use a "soft" damage cap to start and I add FW points to offence to check...

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Yes it is possible and at the same time' date=' easily explained away. How many versions of LMDs did Doom have fully programmed to believe they were Doom?[/quote']

 

We're saying the same thing. An LMD is not Dr. Doom. A Destroyer-Bot is not Dr. Destroyer. So I am okay with the PC thinking he got a kill on DD with his cheap move only to tell him no later. That's a valid form of disallowing it. I am just more partial to just saying no at the outset so no one's panties get bunched after the fact.

[Greywind]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Nothing wrong with a player being yanked up short during play. It's usually referred to as "a learning experience." Part and parcel of playing.

[Peregrine]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Nothing wrong with a GM being yanked up short during play. It's usually referred to as "a learning experience." Part and parcel of game mastering.

 

Surely it goes both ways, eh?

[Greywind]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Surely it goes both ways' date=' eh?[/quote']Does it? Isn't a GM also a player?

 

Misdirection is a GM plot device. How that misdirection occurs falls under dramatic license.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

And the people who dislike Find Weakness get the final laugh. Steve has officially pulled the power from 6E.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

And the people who dislike Find Weakness get the final laugh. Steve has officially pulled the power from 6E.

 

 

kind of a microcosm of laughing for all those who disliked this and that seems to me but I'm feeling pretty bummed about what was yanked out of 6th.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Right there with you, Steameteck.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I guess I'm one of the strange ones. I never had a problem with it as a GM, have never played a PC who had it (although I once designed one; a MA "brick breaker" named Argent who had FW on a 25-), and don't particularly mourn its loss in 6E.

 

I can see where it could be a headache in some campaigns, but it never was in games I played in.

[incrdbil]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

As a GM, FW was an extra complicating factor in balancing. Came up with various methods, such as a limitation only allowing one level, or the ability for an opponent to 'shake' the FW roll..but in the end, it was worries about how to balance the offensive effectiveness of the character that just made me happy when no player bothered taking it. In a game of doubling for effectiveness, the straight halving of effectiveness stood out as oddball.

 

I'm content that, in a future game, if someone really wanted that ability, they could by it in the form of extra damage classes, or an Aid to attack powers, based on a resisted skill roll and other limitation to simulate an ability to bypass defenses.

 

Or just buy dice of damage and say that their strength comes from the characters ability to see weaknesses, and that the actual energy or damage output of the attack is less than it seems. (Maybe this would indicate an FX of the attack doing less damage when the player misses, or hits the wrong target).