Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

[Snapdragon]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I've always looked at 'find weakness' in our games as kind of a martial artist's best friend vs. big nasty bricks and huge armored tanks. I can't think of a single character, however, that has been allowed to buy an energy blast with a find weakness, so possibly this is our GM's way of balancing the abuse possiblity out a little more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

The main objection I'm hearing amounts to "it takes control away from the GM". And' date=' quite frankly, it comes with a tone of "the GM should have more control over the outcome".[/quote']

 

I agree with this sentiment.

 

 

On, sniping - in some games I don't mind it. In some games I completely expect it. In some games it's extremely out of character.

 

In a Fantasy Game, it's difficult to snipe in genre, but if you find a way I don't see an issue.

In a Modern Game, I fully expect at least one sniper, possibly two.

In a Superhero Game it breaks genre for me - and I don't think it's appropriate at all here.

 

I've never had a problem Mechanically with Find Weakness. Sometimes it's just a good Genre choice. Is about the only complaint I could possibly muster.

[Korren]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

After about 3 or 4 successful rolls the cumulative AP effect approaches ever closer to becoming a NND effect that is difficult at best to incorporate into established damage class caps.

 

An NND that does BODY damage, if I remember the rules correctly. Find Weakness doesn't turn an attack into Stun Only, I believe.

 

Just my 2 cents,

Korren

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Its way too much bang for your buck in high defense games IMO. especially if you're willing to invest a few points in a higher roll. Aesthetically it just feels cheaty to me also. I know that's just me. I think the only time I've used it is for a sort of analyze flaw power vs static objects. My wife had a character with it but she bought it off because it felt wrong to her.

 

I don't like armor piercing much either and think instead of halving defense, you should buy how many defense points it ignores. I just haven't been able to settle on a cost.

[Lucius]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Its way too much bang for your buck in high defense games IMO. especially if you're willing to invest a few points in a higher roll. Aesthetically it just feels cheaty to me also. I know that's just me. I think the only time I've used it is for a sort of analyze flaw power vs static objects. My wife had a character with it but she bought it off because it felt wrong to her.

 

I don't like armor piercing much either and think instead of halving defense, you should buy how many defense points it ignores. I just haven't been able to settle on a cost.

 

Try it this way. Assuming, say, an Energy Blast:

 

Energy Blast +3d6 (standard effect: 9 STUN, 3 BODY) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only for bypassing Defenses (-1/2) (10 Real Points)

 

Energy Blast +3d6 (standard effect: 9 STUN, 3 BODY) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only count BODY, and only for bypassing Defenses (-1 1/2) (6 Real Points)

 

Doesn't add to actual damage, but bypasses a set amount of Defense, which is what you asked for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

What about the Piercing Advantage (pg. 96) from Dark Champions?

 

It sounds right up your alley, steamteck.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I know one of the things I've consistently used it for is a Demolitions Expert.

 

Find Weakness: rDefenses, Objects Only.

 

Spend some time and you can properly place charges to detonate a building without needing to kludge a stupidly high attack....

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Ooh, I never thought of that one before.

 

I love it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I know one of the things I've consistently used it for is a Demolitions Expert.

 

Find Weakness: rDefenses, Objects Only.

 

Spend some time and you can properly place charges to detonate a building without needing to kludge a stupidly high attack....

 

But the Demolitions Skill (5er page 58) already covers this:

 

where to plant explosives for maximum effect, how to estimate the amount of explosives necessary to destroy structures, and which types of explosives are best for which jobs.

 

I don't care how much of an expert a character is at demolitions, he is not going to be able to use just a firecracker to take down a bridge. But allowing Find Weakness to be used this way suggests that a character with it could.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

It does, you're right. But Demolitions is normally a Heroic Level Skill - and we've usually considered that portion part of Normal Demo and Normal Explosives.

 

Whole different ball game in a Champions Game and you want to take out a space station, have a limited amount of explosives, or are really Just That Good.

 

Call it Superskill Demolitions if you want. Since we're in the Champions Forum, that's the default assumption I'm working under. And quite frankly - once you introduce dudes with eyebeams I leave reality in the toybox.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

What about the Piercing Advantage (pg. 96) from Dark Champions?

 

It sounds right up your alley, steamteck.

 

I don't have Dark Champions but if it is what I was talking about pity didn't get included in the main ruleset.

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I'm pretty sure that it was concocted after the main rulebook (but then again, before the revised 5th edition).

 

Reciting from memory here:

 

Piercing is an adder that directly reduces a targets defenses point by point.

 

It costs 2 CP for Normal attacks, 3 for everything else (Killing, Flash, Mental, Power) if my memory serves me correctly.

 

It was originally concocted for bullets with slightly higher penetration power, but it can easily be used for greater effect in other games.

 

It is a "Stop Sign" ability though, since it basically allows a character to slice through defenses like a hot knife through butter.

 

Lastly, it could be purchases separately from a power with an Activation Roll to simulate that whole "success ratio" effect.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

An idea I had about balancing Find Weakness was this:adding it's cost to the characters DC when determining damage maximums.

Example: Ironclad has a 60 STR and Find Weakness with Punch on 11-.

For Rule of DC purposes,he is considered to have 14DCs for his main attack (his Punch).

[The Main Man]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

That's actually a pretty good idea: it's like the opposite of applying Damage Reduction to look at adjusted BODY/STUN scores.

[Greywind]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

The GM can always limit the stacking use of Find Weakness. Sniping with Find Weakness can get ugly, yes, but consider what would happen to, say, Dr. Doom, if the Punisher managed to put a bullet through his eye hole. Doom doesn't run around constantly with his force field up.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I dislike Find Weakness because if you want this power, it should be armor piercing with an activation roll, not a separate power.

 

Sniping and Find Weakness is absolutely disgusting.

 

THe problem with Find Weakness is that if you take one minute to study your target, in most games, the character's average defenses will be 2-3 points. That's right. 2-3 points. The base time for Find Weakness is a half phase, so the rules for the time chart now apply.

 

So, on pre phase 12, I find weakness. Keep in mind, this doesn't trigger Danger Sense, because I am not attacking him.

 

Phase 12, I find weakness twice more. He now has 1/8 of his base defense. That means if he started at 32, he's got 4 now.

 

Phase 2 or 3. BANG.

 

Target is down.

 

Next action. BANG.

 

Target is dead. Make a new character.

 

No other ability in the game, that's right, in the entire game, is so valuble for so little point cost.

 

20 points for an 11- roll is hardly what I'd call a little point cost. And it wouldn't be particularly reliable either.

 

To be able to reliably be able to do what you describe, one would need a minimum of an 18- roll, for 55 points. That's getting to be a pretty hefty investment of points there, and I'd expect it to be pretty dangerous.

 

And thus need close monitoring.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

An idea I had about balancing Find Weakness was this:adding it's cost to the characters DC when determining damage maximums.

Example: Ironclad has a 60 STR and Find Weakness with Punch on 11-.

For Rule of DC purposes,he is considered to have 14DCs for his main attack (his Punch).

If we still used damage caps in our Champions campaign I think we'd use a house rule like this. It's a common sense solution to avoid FW becoming potentially unbalancing.

 

Only one PC in our game has FW. Even though he has a fairly good OCV (DEX 33) we haven't found it to be a problem. For one thing, opponents tough enough he needs to use it on tend to have LoW and/or Damage Reduction; nor does he have it on his biggest attack. It takes very little LoW to render the theoretical 1/4 - 1/8 - etc defense progression moot.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Personally, I only really have a problem with the stacking aspect. As a one-successful-roll-allowed power, it would be fine.

[Vulcan]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Personally' date=' I only really have a problem with the stacking aspect. As a one-successful-roll-allowed power, it would be fine.[/quote']

 

Then it wouldn't be Find Weakness, would it? It would just be Armor Piercing with an activation roll.

 

If that's what you want to use as Find Weakness in your games, that's fine. I'll just monitor the characters in my games for abuse, thank you!

[ideasmith]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Then it wouldn't be Find Weakness, would it? It would just be Armor Piercing with an activation roll.

 

It would actually be Armor Piercing with an Activation Roll and with a different counter (Lack of Weakness in place of Hardened).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

I don't like it because it's an ugly, orphan mechanic that can be replaced by something more elegant and integrated into the game system.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

You guys aren't reading the time chart rules correctly. He doesn't have to study for another minute to bring it up to 12-. Once his roll is 14-, it's 14-. This assumes a base 11-, the minimum that you're allowed to buy with the power. He then rolls Find Weakness. Having studied the target for a minute, his roll is now 12-. He doesn't have to do it twice. That's a convenient misreading of the way the time chart governs skill rolls. It implies that it's a separate use of the skill against a different target, which it isn't. It's simply an acquired penalty against his new base roll of 14-, because that's what Find Weakness says.

 

The problem here is that a 14- is something like 90 percent of the time, and a 12- is something like 68 percent of the time. A 10-, which is the next number on the chart, is more or less about 52.5 percent of the time.

 

My real issue here, of course, is the cost of Armor Piercing relative to this power. If you buy Armor Piercing, you get the shaft, because it's more expensive to harden your defenses than it is to buy Lack of Weakness (A VERY difficult power to justify for most PC's). And, Armor Piercing only works once ever. Find Weakness works until you stop finding weakness.

 

The higher powered the game, the more mighty Find Weakness becomes. Steamteck is absolutely right. When your average defenses are 8, halving them to 4 is not that exciting.

 

When your average defenses are 50, halving them to 25 is REALLY exciting.

 

And in a game like that, Find Weakness is dirt cheap.

[jtelson]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Find Weakness isn't a skill; The time chart's irrelevant, PSL's don't apply only Overall Skill Levels or the 5 point per +1 buy up matter.

 

The power description is clear how extra time applies to the power, it does give the GM the leaway to make extra time very powerful but I've never seen one apply that option.

 

You can only apply Find Weakness to 1 type of Defense at a time (PD/ED or Armor/Force Field or Exotic )

 

I think people are tending to react to the Find Weakness from 1-2 editions ago rather than the current version which is considerably less formidable.

[fbdaury]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

Well, they are all kinds of personal problems that different groups have with the Hero rles, you may have just played with a number of GMs that either do not like the FW power for personal reasonsor they have seen the power abused inplay before and did not want to see this repeated. The sad thing is that like all the powers and rules in the system, FW is only really abusive if the GM allows it to be, whether through misinformation as to how the power works or because they do not incorporate into their games the fact that the power is being used. But thats my 2 cents, YMMV.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Why the dislike for Find Weakness?

 

20 points for an 11- roll is hardly what I'd call a little point cost. And it wouldn't be particularly reliable either.

 

To be able to reliably be able to do what you describe, one would need a minimum of an 18- roll, for 55 points. That's getting to be a pretty hefty investment of points there, and I'd expect it to be pretty dangerous.

 

And thus need close monitoring.

 

Actually if he just wants it for his sniper rifle according to my book you're 10 points too high. For either its quite a bang for your buck. Anyway, I, as mentioned, have an issue with the whole halving mechanic.

 

Maybe it should decrease your defense by how much you make the roll by?