The Emergence Of Superhumans

[Ms Superior]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

This is a general sort of question based on some recent thinking I've been doing for a Champions campaign: How much would history change the farther back the Superhuman Age began?

 

Depends on how you look at history. Is it kings and battles, names and dates? Is it gradual changes in society? Do you change history with a bullet in the right/wrong head, or by manipulating the formulae of psychohistory? More exactly, what do you want history to be in your game; a stream to be diverted by every pebble, or a glacier you cannot change the overall course of?

[sinanju]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I read an article once which pointed out that if you dropped a 1980's era calculator back into the 1950's' date=' [u']nobody[/u] - not even the greatest minds on Earth - would be able to figure out how the microprocessor worked. They might be able to figure out what it does but they simply lacked the basic technology to analyze it. To them, a microprocessor would be nothing more than a bit of silicon with some strange impurities. Even with a knowledge of transistors (bleeding edge in the early 50's) they'd never figure out how the chip worked. Sometimes (often, actually) science has to wait until technology catches up with it.

 

Seems to me a lot of "supergenius-class" or alien tech might be in the same boat.

 

Are you sure it was a calculator? I read one once where it described a similar situation with a nuclear cruise missile landing at White Sands in the 1940s. They'd be able to figure out the jet engine. They'd be able to grok the nuclear payload. But the computer--it's simply too far beyond their tech to begin to analyze it in any meaningful way. Simply connecting a standard voltmeter to it to measure resistance would destroy it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Are you sure it was a calculator? I read one once where it described a similar situation with a nuclear cruise missile landing at White Sands in the 1940s. They'd be able to figure out the jet engine. They'd be able to grok the nuclear payload. But the computer--it's simply too far beyond their tech to begin to analyze it in any meaningful way. Simply connecting a standard voltmeter to it to measure resistance would destroy it.

Same idea. Either way, they couldn't figure out microprocessors. As you pointed out, simply applying an ohmmeter of the period would likely destroy the microprocessor since ohmmeters use applied voltages to calculate resistance. The voltages used to test vacuum tubes typical of the 40's and 50's were substantially higher than those of the transistor era; never mind microprocessors.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

How wars are fought would be quite different in this alternate timeline.

 

Since superhumans would be the biological equivalent of fast-deploying mobile artillery pieces, an earlier poster pointed out that armies would likely be much smaller, and opposing countries would use superhumans to decide their battles. Wars may have similar winners and losers to those that came about in our timeline, but the collateral damage may not be as severe.

 

Something like the First World War might have been fought, but since millions of dead in the trenches in our timeline wouldn't have happened in this one, the conditions that formed the Second World War were probably suppressed.

 

The Civil War in America, I'm inclined to think came out a stalemate leading to a divided nation. Partly this is because I think it would give more potential plotlines to have the US divided up a bit. This would have had a major effect on expansion to the west as well.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Depends on how you look at history. Is it kings and battles' date=' names and dates? Is it gradual changes in society? Do you change history with a bullet in the right/wrong head, or by manipulating the formulae of psychohistory? More exactly, what do you want history to be in your game; a stream to be diverted by every pebble, or a glacier you cannot change the overall course of?[/quote']

 

I'm looking at historical changes as rocks tossed into the stream after a single big diversion of history occurs in 1000 AD with the advent of superhumans. Although I guess a change like that would be more like a meteor strike, and the changes further downstream are caused by debris falling into the stream and causing additional changes.

[Dronf]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I'm looking at historical changes as rocks tossed into the stream after a single big diversion of history occurs in 1000 AD with the advent of superhumans.

 

If metahumans first show ~1000 CE you aren't dealing with "the world" but with a bunch of "worlds"----West Europe, East Europe/Byzantium, Islamic, South Asia, East Asia, Meso-America, Polynesia.

 

There's such little communication that each of them is operating independent of each other. Metahumans may change one, but the others aren't changed. Unless #1 metahumans are supremely powerful and "world conquereres" or #2 metahumans only come to be on the "borderlands" between "worlds".

 

EXAMPLE: A superduperman popping into existence in central India is not going to effect West Europe or Polynesia unless you create strange situation.

[Ms Superior]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I'm looking at historical changes as rocks tossed into the stream after a single big diversion of history occurs in 1000 AD with the advent of superhumans. Although I guess a change like that would be more like a meteor strike' date=' and the changes further downstream are caused by debris falling into the stream and causing additional changes.[/quote']

 

If I understand, IOW, there was something that YANKED the "flow of history" into an other channel, and since there have been events that modified the flow of history.

 

That's cool, but what YANKED the flow of history? If it was the advent of metahumans, what about that YANKED the flow of history?

 

I'm NOT saying that the appearance of metahumans would not YANK the flow of history, I'm just wondering what precisely about metahumans did this.

 

If metahumans first show ~1000 CE you aren't dealing with "the world" but with a bunch of "worlds"----West Europe, East Europe/Byzantium, Islamic, South Asia, East Asia, Meso-America, Polynesia.

 

There's such little communication that each of them is operating independent of each other. Metahumans may change one, but the others aren't changed. Unless #1 metahumans are supremely powerful and "world conquereres" or #2 metahumans only come to be on the "borderlands" between "worlds".

 

OOoo! Good point! When communication, trade, etc. is low, affect is low too.l

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I read an article once which pointed out that if you dropped a 1980's era calculator back into the 1950's' date=' [u']nobody[/u] - not even the greatest minds on Earth - would be able to figure out how the microprocessor worked. They might be able to figure out what it does but they simply lacked the basic technology to analyze it. To them, a microprocessor would be nothing more than a bit of silicon with some strange impurities. Even with a knowledge of transistors (bleeding edge in the early 50's) they'd never figure out how the chip worked. Sometimes (often, actually) science has to wait until technology catches up with it.

 

Seems to me a lot of "supergenius-class" or alien tech might be in the same boat.

 

I'm not so sure. The electron microscope was invented in the 1930s so if somebody was clever enough to consider looking at the thing in a 1950s version, they might be able to get some idea of what was going on in there...

[caris]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I'm not so sure. The electron microscope was invented in the 1930s so if somebody was clever enough to consider looking at the thing in a 1950s version' date=' they might be able to get some idea of what was going on in there...[/quote']

 

Also, even if all they got was "a calculating device can be made out of a piece of silacon with strange impurities in it" they have a useful path of investigation into new areas that may not have occured to them for a couple of more decades. Leading to discoveries happening sooner than they would have.

[Clonus]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

If I understand, IOW, there was something that YANKED the "flow of history" into an other channel, and since there have been events that modified the flow of history.

 

That's cool, but what YANKED the flow of history? If it was the advent of metahumans, what about that YANKED the flow of history?

 

I'm NOT saying that the appearance of metahumans would not YANK the flow of history, I'm just wondering what precisely about metahumans did this.

l

 

Assuming that they are comic book style metas then obviously they'll revolutionize warfare. The more primitive the technology the more a given level of superhuman combat capability will swing things. It becomes, for example perfectly credible to settle disputes with a contest of champions, simply because if your champion is defeated, then your remaining mundane forces have no chance of victory anyway. They were only there to transport or occupy the winnings. There is no need to worry about the prosperity of your commoners since even if they are starved and sick, it will have no effect on your military power.

[novi]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Assuming that they are comic book style metas then obviously they'll revolutionize warfare. The more primitive the technology the more a given level of superhuman combat capability will swing things. It becomes' date=' for example perfectly credible to settle disputes with a contest of champions, simply because if your champion is defeated, then your remaining mundane forces have no chance of victory anyway. They were only there to transport or occupy the winnings. There is no need to worry about the prosperity of your commoners since even if they are starved and sick, it will have no effect on your military power.[/quote']

 

That's a rather dim view of human nature...

 

Also, at power levels less than nigh-invulnerable kryptonians or Wolverine level regeneration, they still have to watch out for poisoned food and assassins coming in their sleep.

 

Also, while it may not affect your military power, prosperous and well-fed commoners make it far easier to acquire a comfortable lair and live a life of luxury, especially if you're not lucky enough to control a gold mine or something similarly profitable.

 

Also, the moral authorities may get cranky at you. That may not be so bad depending on where you live, but then again, the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages may get cranky if you, chosen by God to receive miraculous powers to protect His kingdom on Earth, treat your people poorly. They can declare a crusade on your lands if they really want to, you know.

[Ms Superior]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Also' date=' even if all they got was "a calculating device can be made out of a piece of silacon with strange impurities in it" they have a useful path of investigation into new areas that may not have occured to them for a couple of more decades. Leading to discoveries happening sooner than they would have.[/quote']

 

True; solid proof that something is possible would lead to more research in that area.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

How wars are fought would be quite different in this alternate timeline.

 

Since superhumans would be the biological equivalent of fast-deploying mobile artillery pieces, an earlier poster pointed out that armies would likely be much smaller, and opposing countries would use superhumans to decide their battles. Wars may have similar winners and losers to those that came about in our timeline, but the collateral damage may not be as severe.

 

Something like the First World War might have been fought, but since millions of dead in the trenches in our timeline wouldn't have happened in this one, the conditions that formed the Second World War were probably suppressed.

 

The Civil War in America, I'm inclined to think came out a stalemate leading to a divided nation. Partly this is because I think it would give more potential plotlines to have the US divided up a bit. This would have had a major effect on expansion to the west as well.

 

You forget one of the *BIG* factors on that last one: assuming that metahumanity is evenly distributed? The majority of the metahumans in the South will be among the black slave population.

[csyphrett]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

if history is changed as far back as 1000 ad, there wouldn't be an America as we know it. Matter of fact, the dominant powers of the time would probably still be in charge today. High tech wonders that we take for granted today would probably be put in effect much faster because super genius would be able to build things that much faster.

 

Remember ancient greeks built all kinds of clockwork things long before what we consider modern Industrial Revolution standard.

 

CES

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

You forget one of the *BIG* factors on that last one: assuming that metahumanity is evenly distributed? The majority of the metahumans in the South will be among the black slave population.

Since black-specific slavery* didn't develop until the 1600's, I think it's safe to presume that the Peculiar Institution that formed in the American colonies and later the United States would never have happened in the first place. It would have totally altered the history of the Western hemisphere.

 

 

*Arab slavers were still raiding the coasts of northwest Europe for white slaves into the early 1600's; and probably took more African slaves into the Muslim world than crossed the Atlantic to the new world.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Since black-specific slavery* didn't develop until the 1600's, I think it's safe to presume that the Peculiar Institution that formed in the American colonies and later the United States would never have happened in the first place. It would have totally altered the history of the Western hemisphere.

 

 

*Arab slavers were still raiding the coasts of northwest Europe for white slaves into the early 1600's; and probably took more African slaves into the Muslim world than crossed the Atlantic to the new world.

 

Maybe I'm historically-challenged, but I thought a lot of the slaves that came out of Africa were due to inter-tribal warfare. The chieftains found it profitable to sell the defeated to outsiders.

 

I do agree that the potential for mutant powers to erupt out of any given person at puberty might have caused less slavery to be one large change resulting from the emergence of superhumans in 1000 AD.

 

On the flip side, mentalists with mind control powers may make slavery more likely in places where such mentalists are more common.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

You forget one of the *BIG* factors on that last one: assuming that metahumanity is evenly distributed? The majority of the metahumans in the South will be among the black slave population.

 

You know, this is a good point. I was focussed on the war itself and not the root causes.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

if history is changed as far back as 1000 ad, there wouldn't be an America as we know it. Matter of fact, the dominant powers of the time would probably still be in charge today. High tech wonders that we take for granted today would probably be put in effect much faster because super genius would be able to build things that much faster.

 

Remember ancient greeks built all kinds of clockwork things long before what we consider modern Industrial Revolution standard.

 

CES

 

I admit it's a challenging mental exercise for me, which is why I am enjoying seeing what others point out on this thread as issues to consider. Taking a change and rolling it forward through history to see what changes afterwards. Wars and the formations of nations are a definite change. Technology is another.

[Peregrine]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

You know' date=' this is a good point. I was focussed on the war itself and not the root causes.[/quote']

 

So how would the presence of metahumans affects States' Rights? (You know, the other root issue of that war - the issue that got glossed over and all but edited out of the history books by the winners.)

[Clonus]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

So how would the presence of metahumans affects States' Rights? (You know' date=' the [i']other[/i] root issue of that war - the issue that got glossed over and all but edited out of the history books by the winners.)

 

Well since the two states rights that were at issue were the right to retain slaves as property, and the right to secede to keep the right to retain slaves as property, no real effect beyond the obvious reality that it's very possible that that the plantation owners would all be metahumans and it wouldn't take them very long to realise that they have a bigger difference than skin colour to use as a benchmark for who would or would not be a slave.

[Peregrine]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Well since the two states rights that were at issue were the right to retain slaves as property' date=' and the right to secede to keep the right to retain slaves as property, no real effect beyond the obvious reality that it's very possible that that the plantation owners would all be metahumans and it wouldn't take them very long to realise that they have a bigger difference than skin colour to use as a benchmark for who would or would not be a slave.[/quote']

 

Not quite.

 

(This heads to NGD territory, so I will use Spoiler tags for those not interested.)

 

 

Lincoln ran on a platform that included a radical reinterpretation of the relationship between the states and the Union. Rather than the Union having been formed by the states and the states having delegated powers to the Union via the Constitution (the preexisting understanding), he insisted that the Union was formed as a separate entity and defined by the Constitution and that, in the act of joining the Union, the states surrendered those powers irrevocably. The lack of a right to secede was one of the many and several implications of that interpretation. If the Federal government were to act under such an interpretation, then any action by any state could be overruled by an act of the Federal government. The implications of this went far beyond secession and slavery, and included other topics of contention (such as tariffs). Further, given the general dominance of Congress by the Northern states, the Southern states saw a vary real possibility of becoming effectively little more than economic colonies; one might even say they feared becoming slaves to the Northern-dominated Federal government.

 

As to Lincoln himself, his vision of the Union was paramount. Slavery was, to him, a secondary issue; while on record as opposed to slavery in general on moral grounds, he also said (paraphrasing) "If eliminating slavery will preserve the Union, let us eliminate slavery. If retaining slavery will preserve the Union, let us retain slavery." The secession of the Southern states was not an attempt to preserve slavery, for there was no bill of abolition in the offing, but a direct rejection of Lincoln's vision of the Union, which Lincoln could not and did not tolerate.

 

 

Nonetheless, superpowers or the lack thereof would definitely be a stark divider, at least equal to if not greater than race; this would affect society throughout the world, wherever superpowers appeared. Superpowered individuals would find it generally easier to accumulate social and political power, and the wealth that often/usually* accompanies power.

 

*Certainly not universally, but the exceptions are noteworthy by the fact that they are exactly that, exceptions.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Nonetheless, superpowers or the lack thereof would definitely be a stark divider, at least equal to if not greater than race; this would affect society throughout the world, wherever superpowers appeared. Superpowered individuals would find it generally easier to accumulate social and political power, and the wealth that often/usually* accompanies power.

 

*Certainly not universally, but the exceptions are noteworthy by the fact that they are exactly that, exceptions.

 

I guess another way to look at it would be to divide humanity into two camps: the powered and non-powered. Or superpowered humans could come to be referred to as Homo Superior (as Magneto of the Marvel Universe would refer to superpowered mutants).

 

Imagine the Darwin of this timeline as one of the first to shout out against the superpowered when he theorizes evolution. Survival of the fittest indeed.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I've been thinking of the divisions between types and how I can differentiate them.

 

Normal Humans: These individuals have the 20 point Disadvantage "Normal Characteristic Maxima" as a hard cap on their characteristics. They may exceed it with technological aid (powered armor being the most common way).

 

Super Humans: These individuals have the 10 point Distinctive Features: Mutant. I'm debating if there is enough feeling concerning superhumans after a millenium of existence to justify a mandatory Social Limitation for being mutants.

 

Enhanced Humans: These are individuals who have weak versions of the supergene, just enough to give them slightly enhanced characteristics and abilities. While they are not distinctive enough from normal humans to show up on most scanners as superhuman, they are limited to 125% of Normal Characteristic Maxima. Maybe this would be a 5 point Distinctive Features? Their supergene would show up on extended tests, just not the standard ones.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Maybe I'm historically-challenged' date=' but I thought a lot of the slaves that came out of Africa were due to inter-tribal warfare. The chieftains found it profitable to sell the defeated to outsiders.[/quote']Quite true. OTOH, taking defeated enemies as slaves was pretty much universal throughout human history and was often regarded as more merciful than simply killing them. Not that that fact excuses slavery, of course, but I think it illustrates that the moral framework was different. Slavery wasn't seen as a wholly unique thing; given that there was forced bondage, serfs, imprisonment for debt, and legally unbreakable apprenticeships (Benjamin Franklin ran away from his.). It was part of a continuity of servitude.

 

Slavery based on race largely began in the 15th and 16th centuries; as the Spanish and Portuguese began to exploit the New World. Slaveowners found the native Americans generally made poor slaves (as did Muslims imported from norther Africa) as they were too rebellious and began to import more docile people from Africa. Most early slaves were sold by rival tribes who'd captured them in war, but that soon developed into wars waged in and of themselves to capture slaves and more than one tribal chief selling his own tribesmen. Actual slave raids by whites into the interior were relatively rare, but they did occur. Most buyers preferred to just pull into a slave trading station (often a island off the African coast) and buy their "wares" from a wholesaler.

 

I'm not as up on the Arab slave trade, but it's estimated approximately 20 million African slaves were taken north and eastward into Muslim lands compared to the 19 million who were taken across the Atlantic. Given the total population of sub-Saharan Africa during those centuries, that must have been a staggering percentage of the population (probably, IMO, rivaling the Holocaust).

[Peregrine]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I'm not as up on the Arab slave trade' date=' but it's estimated approximately 20 million African slaves were taken north and eastward into Muslim lands compared to the 19 million who were taken across the Atlantic. Given the total population of sub-Saharan Africa during those centuries, that must have been a staggering percentage of the population (probably, IMO, rivaling the Holocaust). [/quote']

 

To my knowledge, it never completely stopped and still continues (at substantially lower volumes) to this day.