The patriot

[csyphrett]

This character looks a little off to me. I was wondering if my instincts are right, or if I am being crazy. The campaign is 100 base plus 100 disads for 5th edition.

 

Patriot

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

26 DEX 0

23 CON 26

13 BODY 6

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

18 PRE 8

18 COM 4

 

10/24 PD 0

11/24 ED 6

5 SPD -10

15 REC 0

46 END 0

50 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 90

 

Cost Power

20 Elemental Control (Telekinesis), 40-point powers

19 1) Bodily Movement through Telekinesis: +16 DEX (48 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

20 2) Speed of Thought: +4 SPD (40 Active Points)

10 3) Telekinetic Railgun: HKA 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (41 Active Points); OIF (Small Objects of Opportunity; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Range Based on Strength (-1/4)

20 4) Telekinetic Force Field: FF (14 PD/13 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (40 Active Points)

20 5) Grabbing self with Telekinesis: Flight 16", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (40 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 109

 

 

Cost Skill

1 TF: Two-Wheeled Motorized Ground Vehicles

Skills Cost: 1

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 200

 

Pts. Disadvantage

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

20 DNPC: Gwen Ellis 11- (Normal; Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID)

10 Distinctive Features: Mutant (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

10 Social Limitation: Teenager (Frequently, Minor)

5 Money: Poor

15 Psychological Limitation: Protective of Innocents (Common, Strong)

10 Psychological Limitation: Over Protective of sister (Common, Moderate)

15 Hunted: Supremacy, mutant supremist organization 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish)

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 100

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The patriot

 

That EC is just broken.

 

Per 5er powers in a EC must cost END by default (which also makes them visible) or take that Limitation.

Characteristics in an EC for a Brick is just silly (it's essentially 'double dipping').

5er figured characteristics basically ARE an EC (which is why figured's and EC's are both gone in 6e).

 

Slots 3, 4 & 5 are the only ones legal for an EC.

[Lairian]

Re: The patriot

 

I'd consider a character with absolutely no skills whatsoever more than "a little off".

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The patriot

 

What possible concept justifies selling their SPD off and buying all of their extra DEX and more SPD as part of the Elemental Control?

 

While there might not be anything wrong with it from a rules perspective I have trouble with this power even if it wasn’t in the EC:

10 3) Telekinetic Railgun: HKA 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (41 Active Points); OIF (Small Objects of Opportunity; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Range Based on Strength (-1/4)

Why start with a HKA and add Ranged instead of starting with a RKA? Because he wants to get extra damage from adding STR. Why does a “Telekinetic Railgun” get extra damage based on the Characters physical STR? Why is the power “Range Based on STR”? There’s nothing inherently wrong with it, it just doesn’t seem to model what the name of the power describes.

Also, while I don’t have anything else to compare it to as far as the campaign goes, it really looks like an attempt to min/max the power. I mean Armor Piercing and the Increased Stun Multiplier combined with No Knockback (Killing damage does less KB anyway) and an OIF which he can basically justify as “I walk around with a pocket full of pennies to shoot people with” just seems off. It looks like an attempt to Advantage stack a minor Power to make it a threat, and then bring the price down by stacking Limitations that don’t do much then sticking the whole thing in an EC.

 

Also, as has already been stated, where are his skills? Even with a full set of “Everyman Skills” the character is still bare bones to say the least.

 

Also, the more juvenile side of me must point out, you may want to change the name of this power: “Grabbing self with Telekinesis”

[fbdaury]

Re: The patriot

 

What possible concept justifies selling their SPD off and buying all of their extra DEX and more SPD as part of the Elemental Control?

 

While there might not be anything wrong with it from a rules perspective I have trouble with this power even if it wasn’t in the EC:

Why start with a HKA and add Ranged instead of starting with a RKA? Because he wants to get extra damage from adding STR. Why does a “Telekinetic Railgun” get extra damage based on the Characters physical STR? Why is the power “Range Based on STR”? There’s nothing inherently wrong with it, it just doesn’t seem to model what the name of the power describes.

Also, while I don’t have anything else to compare it to as far as the campaign goes, it really looks like an attempt to min/max the power. I mean Armor Piercing and the Increased Stun Multiplier combined with No Knockback (Killing damage does less KB anyway) and an OIF which he can basically justify as “I walk around with a pocket full of pennies to shoot people with” just seems off. It looks like an attempt to Advantage stack a minor Power to make it a threat, and then bring the price down by stacking Limitations that don’t do much then sticking the whole thing in an EC.

 

Also, as has already been stated, where are his skills? Even with a full set of “Everyman Skills” the character is still bare bones to say the least.

 

 

I think that you might have been getting too hung up on the name of the power- it was apparent to me that he's picking things up and flinging them at targets, why wouldn't his Str add to that damage. As far as being a complex and top heavy build, if his GM allows for it then that's not our problem.

 

As far as no skills- it's a 200 point char for crying out loud! I'm surprised he has any stats not built through EC personally!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The patriot

 

As far as being a complex and top heavy build' date=' if his GM allows for it then that's not our problem.[/quote']

I don't disagree, it's completely up to the GM. You may have noticed that the OP (who may or may not actually be said GM) specifically asked for imput, which I gave.

 

As far as no skills- it's a 200 point char for crying out loud! I'm surprised he has any stats not built through EC personally!

Are you incapable of playing low power characters or was this line a joke?

[fbdaury]

Re: The patriot

 

I don't disagree' date=' it's completely up to the GM. You may have noticed that the OP (who may or may not actually [i']be[/i] said GM) specifically asked for imput, which I gave.

 

 

Are you incapable of playing low power characters or was this line a joke?

 

I know that he was asking for input, it just seemed that you were getting a little too hung up on some details of the character.

 

I was somewhat joking and somewhat not- this is intended as a 5th edition Champions charcter, not a Fantasy Hero or Dark Champions character. Personally, unless making an intentionally limited character or a teen champion, I would likely be hard-pressed to build a well-rounded character at this level myself. But I like to pack all kinds of expensive things into even low-power characters, like background skills, logical reps and perks-including possible theme bases or vehicles, that sort of thing:)

[Capt Fantastic]

Re: The patriot

 

My issues with this character - as a GM and a player is it is severely unbananced for a low level super. I'll start with what I see is good - his Stats are fine - a very well balanced Brick as I see it for 200 pt Characters (except for his PD & ED but I'll cover that in a minute). He would be a welcome addition to any group. The problem is you want to use EC to pay for additional STATS and no skills.

My main problems are no Skills and the EC is prohibited. As a player you'll run into so many problems because of no skills - you're limiting your character to only being useful in a fight. Even with Everyman Skills your character doesn't know much of anything or how to do much of anything - as a GM I would make his life miserable over his lack of knowledge.

The other problem is his EC. As stated by others earlier - no NO END allowed. Slots 1 & 2 are prohibitted. Also as a GM I wouldn't allow the Ranged HKA - you need to buy it as a RKA since it's Telekinetic and not STR based. And as a player I would worry about the Force Field as your armor as a Brick. If you get stunned, it drops and you've lost most of your resistance - really bad news if you were flying because you're now dropping like a stone to the ground. I'd rearrange points to pay for Armor, flying, and some skills, and some HTH skill levels. He's not a bad character - just a little reallowcation of points and I think you'll have a great time. If you need to reach guys at range - throw a manhole cover, a car, or another villian - you're a brick! Enjoy it. You can lift 25 tons!

[csyphrett]

Re: The patriot

 

thanks guys. I will rep you so look for it. I need to pull everything out of his EC, and then rework it. This is the second writeup for the character he has submitted. I don't like to haggle about things. It looks like I am going to just have to write the character myself.

CES

[fbdaury]

Re: The patriot

 

thanks guys. I will rep you so look for it. I need to pull everything out of his EC, and then rework it. This is the second writeup for the character he has submitted. I don't like to haggle about things. It looks like I am going to just have to write the character myself.

CES

 

h, IC now- this was for a character in one of your games, not you creation... gotcha- that makes more sense frankly.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The patriot

 

Err, you thought he was saying his own character, that he made, (and for some reason refered to as "this character") looked off?

[secretID]

Re: The patriot

 

I'm a little late on this, but I'll just note that in 5e, ECs and STR are two of the top handful of best deals - it's no coincidence that ECs and figured characteristics are the biggest changes in 6e. One half his points in an EC and another 1/4 in STR pretty much guarantees he'll be overpowered. That very ugly EC tells me that he was intended to be.

[Narratio]

Re: The patriot

 

Just saw the character - Powers covered by all above, let me comment on the support stuff.

 

18PRE and 18 COM plus a 15pt Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

 

You're going to have to lay out some very strong back story to tie these together. With PRE and COM so high you're in the "Hubba hubba yowzer!" range of physical attractiveness - as a teenager at school. A person who quite literally cannot hide in a crowd. Somebody will be looking at them with envy/jealopusy/rampant lust. The secret ID bit gets tricky to maintain

 

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

10 Distinctive Features: (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

 

Likewise the "unusual senses" What are the senses, what's the reaction? And how do you tie it to the physical attractiveness? Plus, once spotted by these unusual senses the secret ID is no longer a secret ID, it's a flashing beacon. They know who and what he is and can follow him to see where he lives...

 

10 Distinctive Features: (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

15 Hunted: Supremacy, mutant supremist organization 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish)

 

Guess what? The MSO noted will find him real easy, because if anybody has these "unusual senses" an organization searching for Mutants has them. After the first encounter with them his family and DNPC are fish bait, as he can't hide what he is... It's ugly death trap time.

[assault]

Re: The patriot

 

18PRE and 18 COM plus a 15pt Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

 

You're going to have to lay out some very strong back story to tie these together. With PRE and COM so high you're in the "Hubba hubba yowzer!" range of physical attractiveness - as a teenager at school. A person who quite literally cannot hide in a crowd. Somebody will be looking at them with envy/jealopusy/rampant lust. The secret ID bit gets tricky to maintain

 

Glasses and a geeky hairdo would do the trick. It works for Superboy. Robin doesn't even bother with the glasses.

 

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

10 Distinctive Features: (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

 

Likewise the "unusual senses" What are the senses, what's the reaction? And how do you tie it to the physical attractiveness? Plus, once spotted by these unusual senses the secret ID is no longer a secret ID, it's a flashing beacon. They know who and what he is and can follow him to see where he lives...

 

This is standard "Mutant Detector" stuff. Not a problem unless the GM wants to make it a problem.

 

10 Distinctive Features: (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

15 Hunted: Supremacy, mutant supremist organization 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish)

 

Guess what? The MSO noted will find him real easy, because if anybody has these "unusual senses" an organization searching for Mutants has them. After the first encounter with them his family and DNPC are fish bait, as he can't hide what he is... It's ugly death trap time.

 

GM bullying time, IMHO, if that's how it is played.

 

Of course, given the ugly build, it would be tempting to rain on the player's parade - but that's just saying that you don't want to play with them.

 

I don't see a terrible problem with these disads. I'm not a big fan of the whole overdone mutant thing, personally, but I can understand that some people are into it. There's no reason to jerk them around.

 

Of course, I would be reluctant to mix mutants and non-mutants in this kind of situation. Then again, Aaron Allston seems to have done it in his Strike Force game, so who am I to judge?

 

Each GM to their own.

[Alibear]

Re: The patriot

 

ignore me

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The patriot

 

Okay, I'm ignoring you, WAIT!... oh dangit! Fooled again!

[Sunderspirit]

Re: The patriot

 

Hey, I am the creator of this character and I did want to say a few things.

 

First, the character special effect is that of a zero range telekinetic (bought as strength), which is why the HKA is bought as a telekinetic railgun.

 

Second, the character is a teenager, a self described slacker, skills seemed inappropriate. On the otherhand he is smart and charismatic, which aren't things that should be discounted in non-combat situations.

 

Third, the EC. It is not true that things that do not cost END can not be placed into an EC, just that they require the GMs permission (which I asked for). Since there is another player in the game that has such (and many more than I do) I was not forseeing an issue. The DEX and SPD are a stretch, but again, since another player did it, I assume EC conventions were lax.

 

Fourth, this is a play by Email game by strangers, I am trying to feel out what is appropriate for the game and what is appropriate for the game master. Since all I have to go by is the other characters playing, I believe this character to be in line with.

 

Fifth, the HKA. This is a complicated power (for some), but it is a description of grabbing a small object (OIF seems to be the best way to represent that, but it is questionable) and throwing it (telekinetically, because again, his special effect is zero range telekinesis). It is large for a bullet (+ stun multiple) and very fast (AP). To me, this seems like a eloquent rules description of a "power stunt", but then I have been called a min/max-er before.

 

 

The real issue with this character, as I see it, is his CVs are too high, but you all haven't see the other characters. (For instance his COM and PRE are low in comparison to the rest of the characters currently playing (that have posted characters), I am pretty sure he would not have any trouble hiding in their presence). His defenses may be a little high for the group as well.

 

Anyway, thanks for the input, hopefully you have helped Csyphrett, though I wish he had come to me with questions or

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The patriot

 

It sounds as though the character's high STR comes from the same SFX as the powers in his EC. Why shouldn't his STR be affected if one of his EC powers was Drained. Why shouldn't his EC be affected if his STR is Drained? Why not just put the extra STR in the EC just like the extra DEX? That split (taking advantage of STR's figured's & the EC bonus for DEX and SPD) within the same SFX is what seems munchkiny.

 

The 'Drain one, Drain all' aspect is the other major balancing point of EC's (besides the previously mentioned END cost and Visibility aspects).

 

Anyway, GM permission to bypass the 'default' rules is just one step away from being a 'house rule' and actually IS one if done too often (which sounds like the case here). I suspect that the peanut gallery here would pick apart the other characters of this game as well if given the opportunity.

[Clonus]

Re: The patriot

 

Well personally I find the DEX and SPD boost from TK to be cheese. A boost to jumping and running, sure. Maybe a boost to throwing accuracy. But DEX and SPD are at least as much about about how fast and precisely you think as they are about your muscles and nerves. So even though the players next move will _surely_ be to give them Costs END, if you make that the issue, don't let him.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The patriot

 

If the GM allows extra SPD and DEX in your EC, cool. I still call "Cheese!" on getting 10 points for selling back a point of SPD before replacing it with the SPD in the EC.

[assault]

Re: The patriot

 

If the GM allows extra SPD and DEX in your EC' date=' cool. I still call "Cheese!" on getting 10 points for selling back a point of SPD before replacing it with the SPD in the EC.[/quote']

 

Yep. Total Casu marzu.

[csyphrett]

Re: The patriot

 

Rob sent over a reworking of his character.

CES

Patriot

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

23 DEX 39

23 CON 26

13 BODY 6

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

18 PRE 8

18 COM 4

 

6/20 PD -4

7/20 ED 2

4 SPD 7

15 REC 0

46 END 0

50 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 138

 

Cost Power

20 Elemental Control, 40-point powers

20 1) FF (14 PD/13 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (40 Active Points)

20 2) Flight 16", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (40 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 60

 

 

Cost Skill

1 TF: Two-Wheeled Motorized Ground Vehicles

1 Mechanics 8-

Skills Cost: 2

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 200

 

Pts. Disadvantage

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently, Major)

20 DNPC: Gwen Ellis 11- (Normal; Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID)

10 Distinctive Features: Mutant (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)

10 Social Limitation: Teenager (Frequently, Minor)

5 Money: Poor

15 Psychological Limitation: Protective of Innocents (Common, Strong)

10 Psychological Limitation: Over Protective of sister (Common, Moderate)

15 Hunted: Supremacy, mutant supremist organization 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish)

[assault]

Re: The patriot

 

Rob sent over a reworking of his character.

CES

 

Much better. I haven't time to look over him in detail, but the lower cheese level is obvious.

[secretID]

Re: The patriot

 

(Thought I had responded to this...)

 

1) I wouldn't allow the 0 END force field in an EC. He's overpaying relative to armor, if that matters.

2) The skills are virtually nonexistent, obviously.

3) I didn't check the disads.

 

Otherwise, that's MUCH better. He still looks overpowered to me for that point level. I'd think about at least 15 pts. in cuts to the STR and the EC, to be exchanged for skills, talents, whatever. Personally, I require a certain amount of non-combat skills, talents, perks, or powers, but you may not want to get that specific.

[Ice9]

Re: The patriot

 

He still looks overpowered to me for that point level.

Actually, this raises a question - what is the power level for this campaign? Usually, a 200-point campaign is "low-power", meaning lower CVs, DCs, and stats in general. However, based on the initial build and comments about the other PCs, I'm wondering. Since the GM is here, I'm going to ask:

 

For the rest of the group, what are the average:

* OCV/DCV

* Damage classes on the primary attack

* PD/ED

* SPD

 

Because a 200-point campaign with a normal Champions-level baseline is pretty much a sure route to hyper-specialized characters. If that is the case, I'm hardly surprised even a brick is trying to chip every last point out - he might even need to, to keep pace with more point-efficient archetypes.