6E Mess

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Wait, is AoE Narrow Cone a +1/2 Advantage, or is it the AoE Cone Advantage +3/4 with the Narrow Cone Limitation -1/4? There's a difference. If it's +3/4 then -1/4 it has a higher Active Point value, despite the Real Points being the same, doesn't it? Doesn't that, in and of itself, change how it fits in your 70 AP game? Or was it a 70 RP limit?

 

Or am I delusional from lack of sleep and just really confused?

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

a little confused, the -1/4 is a case where it directly effects the value of the advantage (so +1 - -1/4 = +3/4)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Why? Were there cases like that in 5e? I don't remember off hand.

 

Regardless, he already has 40+ pages of House Rules. Why not house rule that the full Advantage value counts towards the AP, then add the Limit, rather than try to re-price it? Wouldn't that be easier, and closer to RAW than just re-pricing multiple items?

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Why? Were there cases like that in 5e? I don't remember off hand.

 

Regardless, he already has 40+ pages of House Rules. Why not house rule that the full Advantage value counts towards the AP, then add the Limit, rather than try to re-price it? Wouldn't that be easier, and closer to RAW than just re-pricing multiple items?

 

A couple, but they for the most part escape me right this min...Focus in 5th for the requires multiple foces did I know in 5th...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Why? Were there cases like that in 5e? I don't remember off hand.

 

Regardless, he already has 40+ pages of House Rules. Why not house rule that the full Advantage value counts towards the AP, then add the Limit, rather than try to re-price it? Wouldn't that be easier, and closer to RAW than just re-pricing multiple items?

 

AOE non-selective worked this way in 5e/5er as well.

 

(+1) for AOE, - (-1/4) for non-selective

Total Advantage = (+3/4)

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

There are all kinds of examples of modifying Advantage and Limitation Values before applying the final total. Within the context of a specific single Modifier you take all the elements you are applying, and add them for the final value. Linked does this. Area Of Effect does this.

 

They've been there in some form since 4E at least. Probably earlier.

 

As for Balabanto's campaign and "issue" ....

 

Unless we get all his house rules we can't help.

 

Him telling us we're wrong is tiresome and ultimately insulting. We're not wrong, we just don't have all the same facts he does. We're going from the base system without his known parameters of "how much Stun" a character has, or "how much CON the average PC has" or whatever other parameters define his campaign.

 

So I'm just going to say it - your math is wrong Balabanto. Your patterns are imaginary.

 

Until you give us all your campaign parameters so we can be on the same page. Our math is correct given that we are discarding wildly unknown aspects that CAN NOT be nailed down until a game is started.

 

When we have that information your math and your patterns will be correct ONLY FOR YOUR GAME AND NOT FOR THE SYSTEM.

 

Thanks. Peace, Out.

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that in my game' date=' I know it's worth the -1/4, because their disadvantages get used. If you're a normal, and have the RP happens during School, for instance, your teen character should get a -1/4 for only in Hero ID. [/quote']

 

I hate to go back to this..but let me say to this..No.

 

Your teen shouldnt get a limitation, because being in school doesn't prevent him from access to his power..unless the school is equipped with power nullifiers. The social/roleplaying consequnces may make the character reluctant to manifest their powers, but their ability to use the power isn't affected. Thats why we have disadvantages and limitations.

 

 

 

If your character is a journalist for a magazine that covers supers, and you publish unflattering material about someone, or they're offended by what you wrote, and they have a higher DEX than you, Sneak attack is irrelevant. You still can't change until your action, AND if you can't hide, your SID is fried like an egg if you do. If the villain goes before you, you suck an attack with no defenses.

 

The character has the choice of keeping powers on all the time, and living with public identity.

 

There's a difference between "can't" and "won't".

 

 

1) Is the character ever in a position where this is a disadvantage?

 

2) Does the character do things that promote those positions, or will the character frequently/constantly be in an environment that promotes those situations?

 

3) If it is the case that something like this comes up about once every four sessions or less, then it's worth the -1/4 limitation. Otherwise, no bonus.

 

thats a good set of questions, but number 2 should be used for quantifying a social disadvantage.

 

Honestly, when it comes to figuring out where the mess is, I'd say it comes from 40 pages of house rules, and the group dynamics that made that neccessary. 75 points isn't a magical number, for example.

As for this

 

Although the numbers may have changed slightly, the numbers on the recovery chart did not. And this is why I think Armor Piercing is broken at +1/4, because it brings people to the -11+ recovery categories much faster than was ever possible before.

 

The problem with players feeling the need to (unheroically) shoot opponents while they are down is better adressed in the way the GM runs combats..as addressed in 5ER, actually. Ignorig recovery options for all minor NPC's below 0 stun helps a lot.

 

As for Agents being taken out easily..well, thats par for the superhero course. They should be mulched and tossed about with abandon. Seriously, tracking, or even calculating Stun for a run of the mill agent is a waste of GM time.

 

Over and over, I see fewer problems with the rules, and a bigger problem of a raging power escalation war beteen the players and the GM--complicated by overthinking easy conventions and misinterpreting certain rules. Seriously, that what it reads like. I know you may feel differently, but considering the multiple sources coming to similar conclusions....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem with players feeling the need to (unheroically) shoot opponents while they are down is better adressed in the way the GM runs combats..as addressed in 5ER' date=' actually. Ignorig recovery options for all minor NPC's below 0 stun helps a lot.[/quote']

 

Interpretation of 0 to -9 STUN as "he's staggering backwards" rather than "he's down on the ground with his eyes shut, unmoving" also helps. And, given the character remains aware of his surroundings at this level, seems quite reasonable - he's a bit harder hit than being Stunned, but he's still moving. Another reasonable interpretation would be that he's down, but trying to get up. So use an action to target him and fire only if he does get up.

 

As for Agents being taken out easily..well' date=' thats par for the superhero course. they should be mulched and tossed abotu with abandon. Seriously, tracking, or even calculating Stun for a run of the mill agent is a waste of GM time. [/quote']

 

BOD is often more of an issue - my players are pretty careful to avoid seriously injuring the poor Agents, as they know their attack powers will overwhelm the Agents' defenses.

[Theron]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I hate to go back to this..ut let me say to this..No.

 

YOur teen shouldnt get a limitation, because being in school doesn't prevent him from access to his power..unless the school is equipped with power nullifiers. The social/roleplaying consequnces may make the character reluctant to manifest their powers, but their ability to use the power isn't affected. Thats why we have disadvantages and limitations.

 

Quoted for truth. That's a textbook example of a Disad.

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Interpretation of 0 to -9 STUN as "he's staggering backwards" rather than "he's down on the ground with his eyes shut, unmoving" also helps. And, given the character remains aware of his surroundings at this level, seems quite reasonable - he's a bit harder hit than being Stunned, but he's still moving. Another reasonable interpretation would be that he's down, but trying to get up. So use an action to target him and fire only if he does get up.

 

 

In terms of genre enforcement,one deterrent to characters that target opponents who are unconscious, or rather helpless is suddenly finding themselves arrest. A guy breaks into my home and attacks me, I am ok with defending myself--or with stopping him from attacking someone else. But if I disarm him, and knock him to the ground unconscious, and continue to beat on him...I may go to jail.

 

 

Superheroes get some leniency in most genres. No one will really complain if you make sure Dr. Destroyer is well and truly subdued, or a few 'late hits' a second or two after the finishing hit.

 

But gathering in a circle to have a good old fashioned foot to head stomping....

 

 

Characters who routinely keep attacking foes to acheive the mechanistic effects of -40 Stun might need to get a firm talking to by the police or government agency rep, but players will feel that pressure if the GM is relentlessy tracking recoveries and bringing every villain back up to fight--even if the dramatic and challenge needs of the current fight have been met.

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I hate to go back to this..but let me say to this..No.

 

Your teen shouldnt get a limitation, because being in school doesn't prevent him from access to his power..unless the school is equipped with power nullifiers. The social/roleplaying consequnces may make the character reluctant to manifest their powers, but their ability to use the power isn't affected. Thats why we have disadvantages and limitations.

 

 

I have to disagree with you, but I see no problem letting the kid get a -1/4 lim for this, as long as he understands that as a GM I am being asked to make it a limitation. it might not be 100% RAW (it was in 4th BTW), but it is AT LEAST as limiting as having a magic amulet that is kept under your clothes that only mages can see is the source of your power (aka IIF), or how about needing surgry to remove your powers (AKA Restrainable other than grabs). Point is that a limitation is a limitation when the GM says it is.

 

I have gone so far as to allow a character to take a -1/4 lim "Of limited use" on a vanilla RKA in a very silver age campeign, as the guidelines for the campeign made it so that you really could not use it that often.

 

HOWEVER, and this is important, the GM must be willing to make it a limitation

[Theron]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Recognizing that your game is your game and what works for you isn't going to be what works for me, the problem with making it a Limitation is that it becomes very hard and fast. To my way of thinking, Limitations cannot be overcome through roleplay, whereas Disads can. So, unless the kid's school has power dampeners installed, I can't see that as a valid Limitation on the power. A Social Disad, certainly, and one that would likely net more points for the character than a -1/4 Limitation.

 

YMMV, ONVISOH, etc.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I have to disagree with you' date=' but I see no problem letting the kid get a -1/4 lim for this, as long as he understands that as a GM I am being asked to make it a limitation.[/quote']

 

I disagree with your disagreement! (but hopefully politely)

 

The way I look at it, being unwilling to blow your secret ID is NOT a Limitation of the power itself. It's a roleplaying Disadvantage/Complication.

 

If I make a character like Superman, the Lone Ranger or Kenshin, they all have Killing Attacks. They also have very strong CVK's.

 

I'm not going to place a limitation on the powers just because they CHOOSE not to murder people with them. The powers aren't limited, the characters decisions on how to use them are. If I put a limitation on the powers, it goes from "chooses not to kill people" to "power cannot be used to kill". That's just not the same thing.

 

The character is choosing not to blow his secret ID. That's a totally understandable decision, but it's still something that is in the characters hands. If you went with the limitation, that would seem to imply he would be UNABLE to change when people were around...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I disagree with your disagreement! (but hopefully politely)

 

The way I look at it, being unwilling to blow your secret ID is NOT a Limitation of the power itself. It's a roleplaying Disadvantage/Complication.

 

If I make a character like Superman, the Lone Ranger or Kenshin, they all have Killing Attacks. They also have very strong CVK's.

 

I'm not going to place a limitation on the powers just because they CHOOSE not to murder people with them. The powers aren't limited, the characters decisions on how to use them are. If I put a limitation on the powers, it goes from "chooses not to kill people" to "power cannot be used to kill". That's just not the same thing.

 

The character is choosing not to blow his secret ID. That's a totally understandable decision, but it's still something that is in the characters hands. If you went with the limitation, that would seem to imply he would be UNABLE to change when people were around...

 

I agree.

 

It's the difference between Superman/Clark Kent and Captain Marvel/Billy Batson.

 

Clark Kent still has all of Superman's powers.

Billy is just Billy until he says Shazam!

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I disagree with your disagreement! (but hopefully politely)

 

The way I look at it, being unwilling to blow your secret ID is NOT a Limitation of the power itself. It's a roleplaying Disadvantage/Complication.

 

If I make a character like Superman, the Lone Ranger or Kenshin, they all have Killing Attacks. They also have very strong CVK's.

 

I'm not going to place a limitation on the powers just because they CHOOSE not to murder people with them. The powers aren't limited, the characters decisions on how to use them are. If I put a limitation on the powers, it goes from "chooses not to kill people" to "power cannot be used to kill". That's just not the same thing.

 

The character is choosing not to blow his secret ID. That's a totally understandable decision, but it's still something that is in the characters hands. If you went with the limitation, that would seem to imply he would be UNABLE to change when people were around...

 

Most limitations can be modeled with disads and vice versa

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Characters who routinely keep attacking foes to acheive the mechanistic effects of -40 Stun might need to get a firm talking to by the police or government agency rep' date=' but players will feel that pressure if the GM is relentlessy tracking recoveries and bringing every villain back up [b']to fight[/b]--even if the dramatic and challenge needs of the current fight have been met.

 

I've bolded the concern I typically see - the villain gets up with 4 STUN and 4 END and rejoins the fight. Why? Often, it is clear the fight is lost. A Hero might well battle on, despite the odds. But Villains? They tend to slink away quietly, beaten, hoping to return one day when the odds are better stacked in their favour.

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I have to disagree with you, but I see no problem letting the kid get a -1/4 lim for this, as long as he understands that as a GM I am being asked to make it a limitation. it might not be 100% RAW (it was in 4th BTW), but it is AT LEAST as limiting as having a magic amulet that is kept under your clothes that only mages can see is the source of your power (aka IIF), or how about needing surgry to remove your powers (AKA Restrainable other than grabs). Point is that a limitation is a limitation when the GM says it is.

 

I have gone so far as to allow a character to take a -1/4 lim "Of limited use" on a vanilla RKA in a very silver age campeign, as the guidelines for the campeign made it so that you really could not use it that often.

 

HOWEVER, and this is important, the GM must be willing to make it a limitation

 

And thats the problem with the situation as described: the roleplaying decision is what is causing the restriction in the players action. The GM really can't force the limiting effect here as its purely character choice. There may be roleplaying consequiences to what they player does, but thats just part of being in a RPG, and certainly not a basis for points compensation. A limitation comes into play when a character can't do something than a non-limited character could do, when the player wants the character to do it. The situation as described by the post isnt a facet of OIHD in any manner, but a consequence of having visible powers and a secret identity. Under this justification, every player with a visible power effect and secret ID would be entitled to OIHD!

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

You know, something to think about, visible is a -1/4 lim, so is OIAID or what ever it is now called.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Mess

 

You know' date=' something to think about, visible is a -1/4 lim, so is OIAID or what ever it is now called.[/quote']

 

But aren't some powers still visible by default?

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

But aren't some powers still visible by default?

 

Powers that normally cost end.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: 6E Mess

 

... And all this is why I am sticking with my nice pile of 4th ed books.

 

Good luck, folks.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

... And all this is why I am sticking with my nice pile of 4th ed books.

 

Good luck, folks.

 

Um, why? So you can have a binder of houserules for situations that are covered very well in the 6e rulebook? I am much more positive about the changes to 6e than I was to the changes in 5e. In fact 6e fixes many of the issues I had with 5e (ie no Regen).

 

The rules are still new. Not many people have actually hard copies of the rules yet, so may not have read them as closely as they should.

 

6e is one of the best laid out RPG books that I have ever owned. Fred has proven himself to be a grandmaster of Rule book layout. Great typeface selection, great color choices, Tables look beautiful. It's a bit expensive compared to other editions, but for the pagecount is quite economical (I spent more on 4e D&D books which have less page count).

 

Tasha

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

And thats the problem with the situation as described: the roleplaying decision is what is causing the restriction in the players action. The GM really can't force the limiting effect here as its purely character choice. There may be roleplaying consequiences to what they player does' date=' but thats just part of being in a RPG, and certainly not a basis for points compensation. A limitation comes into play when a character can't do something than a non-limited character could do, when the player wants the character to do it. The situation as described by the post isnt a facet of OIHD in any manner, but a consequence of having visible powers and a secret identity. Under this justification, every player with a visible power effect and secret ID would be entitled to OIHD![/quote']

 

As well, if the Limitation is solely that the character doesn't WANT to do X (they can, but they don't want to), the limitation can be overridden by Mind Control.

 

PC: "Right now, I'd love to kill him for what he has done, but that would be wrong."

 

Mentalist Teammate: "Mind Control him to kill the opponent - should be no problem since it's some thing he wants to do anyway."

 

PC: "Oh, the terrible angst"

 

Player of PC: "Thanks for getting me out of the negative impact of my limitation."

 

Powers that normally cost end.

 

In 6e, not all powers that cost END are equally visible. Attacks are more visible, and more passive powers fall into a middle ground between obvious and invisible.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Um, why? So you can have a binder of houserules for situations that are covered very well in the 6e rulebook? I am much more positive about the changes to 6e than I was to the changes in 5e. In fact 6e fixes many of the issues I had with 5e (ie no Regen).

 

The rules are still new. Not many people have actually hard copies of the rules yet, so may not have read them as closely as they should.

 

6e is one of the best laid out RPG books that I have ever owned. Fred has proven himself to be a grandmaster of Rule book layout. Great typeface selection, great color choices, Tables look beautiful. It's a bit expensive compared to other editions, but for the pagecount is quite economical (I spent more on 4e D&D books which have less page count).

 

Tasha

 

Take it as a simple comment on certain exchanges I have seen in this thread so far. Nothing more. I wish you all the best with 6E, I'm sure it is going to be great and all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

But aren't some powers still visible by default?

 

Powers that normally cost end.

 

Powers are now Obvious, Inobvious, and Invisible based on what they do, not their END Cost.

 

See 6E1 p126.

 

I haven't actually checked thoroughly, but Obvious Powers tend to cost END, most Inobvious Powers cost END, and most Invisible Powers do not. However that is incidental coincidence under 6E.

 

The Perceivable Limitation varies from -1/4 to -1/2 depending on how many steps it is taking down the chain: going from Invisible to Obvious is a -1/2.