6E Mess

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Mess

 

How did this happen? That makes a hero who transforms from an ordinary human into something completely different a legless cripple compared to his fellows, since the Only In Hero ID limitation must take at least a full phase to work and must have a means of being interrupted, whereas the others are 1) Prohibitively expensive or 2) Illegal.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Well for starters, OIHID / OIAID is functionally identical in both 5th and 6th edition, so part of your "problem" is built upon a false foundation.

*************************

5th Edition OIHID:

 

Only In Heroic Identity

Value: -¼

A character can only use a power with Only In Heroic Identity ("OIHID") while he's in an alternate identity. Obviously, only characters who maintain two distinct identities can use this Limitation. For example, its commonly used by superheroes who maintain a Social Limitation: Secret Identity, and by characters with some types of shape-shifting or body alteration abilities. It's most appropriate for Superheroic campaigns.

 

For this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms -- the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer (during which the character can do nothing else), and / or there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities. For example a character who defines his suit of powered armor with OIHID would probably require much longer than a Full Phase to put the armor on. A character whose transformation to his alternate identity requires him to speak a magic word can be gagged or otherwise silenced to prevent the change.

 

A power usually cannot take both OIDHID and a Focus Limitation. However you can used OIHID to simulate characters who seem to have a Focus but somehow never lose it. For instance, the powered armor character described above never seems to lose his suit for long or have it taken away from him whiles he's wearing it. Therefore, it isnt really a Focus -- if he bought the armor as a Focus he could lose it. Instead his armor is better defined as a special effect of the OIHID Limitation.

 

************************

6th Edition OIAID

 

ONLY IN ALTERNATE IDENTITY

Value: -¼

A character can only use a power with Only In Alternate Identity (“OIAID”) while he’s in an alternate identity. Obviously, only characters who maintain two distinct identities can use this Limitation. For example, it’s commonly used by superheroes who maintain a Social Complication (Secret Identity), and by characters with some types of shape-shifting or body alteration abilities. It’s most appropriate for Superheroic campaigns.

 

For this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms — the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer (during which the character can do nothing else), and/or there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities. For example, a character who defines his suit of powered armor with OIAID would probably require much longer than a Full Phase to put the

armor on. A character whose transformation to his alternate identity requires him to speak a magic word can be gagged or otherwise silenced to prevent the change.

 

A power usually cannot take both OIAID and a Focus Limitation. However, you can use OIAID to simulate characters who seem to have a Focus, but somehow never lose it. For example, the powered armor character described above never seems to lose his suit for long or have it taken away from him while he’s wearing it. Therefore, it isn’t really a Focus — if he bought the armor as a Focus, he could lose it. Instead, his armor is better defined as a special effect of the OIAID Limitation.

 

A power usually cannot take both OIAID and Extra Time (Full Phase), since typically an OIAID power should already take at least a Full Phase to use. However, the final decision is up to the GM; there may be situations where there are other ways to prevent the OIAID “change” from occurring and the GM thinks Extra Time is a legitimate Limitation for the power.

*********************************

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Welcome to my little problem! Here we go!

 

Today, I ran into some intriguing 6e rules constructions that prohibit existing characters from being converted easily. Here are the concepts in question.

 

1) A is a heroic fire projector who inherited a wish from a dragon. She transforms into a beautiful superheroine with fire powers.

 

Problem #1: Rules as Written, A cannot take Only in Hero ID, as there is nothing to prevent her from changing other than her own force of will.

 

Problem #2: She could buy Shapeshift, where her height, weight, and appearance change, but this is counterproductive for what it offers. It costs SIXTY EIGHT points, which is likely less than Ember ever spent in limitations on Only in Hero ID.

 

Problem #3: Multiform is also out, because she retains her original personality, which means, rules as written, this is also illegal.

 

2) B is a teen, around five foot nine who transforms into a massive heap of humanoid rock.

 

All problems as above.

 

How did this happen? That makes a hero who transforms from an ordinary human into something completely different a legless cripple compared to his fellows, since the Only In Hero ID limitation must take at least a full phase to work and must have a means of being interrupted, whereas the others are 1) Prohibitively expensive or 2) Illegal.

 

IMHO, 68 points is WAY too much to pay for turning into a slightly hotter hot chick, and it's also WAY too much to pay for turning into Granite Boy.

 

Thoughts?

 

Secondly, you seem to be unaware of the "activation of powers" concept.

****************************************

ACTIVATING POWERS

Unless a Power’s description says otherwise,

activating or “turning on” a Power is a Zero Phase

Action, even if activating it causes or requires

physical changes in the character, his powers, or

his equipment. For example, even if a character

activates his Powers by transforming from a

human into a man-beast, converting his clothes

into a suit of powered armor, or reconfiguring a

gadget into another type of gadget, they still only

take a Zero Phase Action to activate — the fact

that he physically transforms himself or something

else doesn’t change the required activation

time.

*************************************

 

A lot of classic "heroic id" cases are covered solely by activation of powers, without any further need for any other ability. Its only a limitation on powers if something prevents the character for turning them on / changing into their "hero id" as a 0-phase action.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Thirdly,there is a standard way to affect changes in how something is perceived due to the use of a power not normally imposed by the rules that works very nicely in some cases; the Perceivable Limitation.

 

In fact, it's very commonly used with armor and DI such as the example power given for DI, Body of Stone, to simulate an effect such as you describe for your second character.

 

 

**************************

DENSITY INCREASE

Body Of Stone: Density

Increase (25,000 kg

mass, +40 STR, +8 PD/8

ED, -16m KB), Costs END

Only To Activate (+¼) (50

Active Points); Perceivable

(-¼). Total cost: 32

points.

 

 

**************************

PERCEIVABLE

Value: -¼ to make an Inobvious Power Obvious;

-¼ to make an invisible Power Inobvious;

-½ to make an invisible Power Obvious

 

Most powers can be perceived by two Sense

Groups when they’re in use, but some are

Inobvious (harder to perceive) or Invisible. (See

6E1 124.) A Power with this Limitation is easier to

perceive than normal.

 

If an Inobvious Power is Obvious, that’s worth

a -¼ Limitation. If an Invisible Power (such as

a Mental Power) is Inobvious, that’s worth a -¼

Limitation; if an Invisible Power is Obvious,

that’s worth a -½ Limitation. The GM may alter

these values if he feels that a power isn’t seriously

restricted by becoming perceivable. For example,

it might not Limit a character much for his

Defense Powers to be Obvious, so the GM could

reduce the value of Perceivable on them to as little

as -0.

 

....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Welcome to my little problem! Here we go!

 

Today, I ran into some intriguing 6e rules constructions that prohibit existing characters from being converted easily. Here are the concepts in question.

 

Problem #3: Multiform is also out, because she retains her original personality, which means, rules as written, this is also illegal.

 

Thoughts?

 

Fourthly, what illegality are you referring to regarding a Multiform character retaining the same personality among their Multiforms?

 

 

**************************

MULTIFORM exerpt:

 

Each form a character can change into is as

free-willed as the original character. The player

must have a complete character sheet for each

form (or some other way to keep track of the abilities

and experiences of each form). Forms may

have different abilities, personalities, or Complications

than the true form or each other, if the

player so desires (the character’s personality often

remains the same from form to form, and in any

form he retains the memories from other forms

unless he has the Multiform Amnesia Psychological

Complication described below).

 

If the forms happen to buy the same abilities or Skills, that’s

simply the nature of the different forms. Characters

may not take a Limitation or Complication

for this, nor may a character buy an ability or Skill

once and somehow “share” it with all of his forms.

*******************************

[Cardinal]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Do I hear an "Amen" for Mr. Shrike?

 

Rep to you for succinctly cutting through these issues.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

And Rep to boot. Thank you for not only pointing out everything, but providing the pertinent examples.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Mess

 

How did I miss this thread until now.

 

I must be getting old.

 

Amen

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Do I hear an "Amen" for Mr. Shrike?

 

Rep to you for succinctly cutting through these issues.

 

Amen!

[BBstacker]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Yeah Killer Shrike nice way to squash the turbulence. if I had rep to give I would give it to you. but there is the smiley with a J:joint:

[Vulcan]

Re: 6E Mess

 

some of us disagree with the notion that walking around normaly in a non powered form is not disadvantageous. Personaly I feel that if a character is non powered most of the time (Instead of just hiding his powers) that it is worth a point savings.

 

In no small part because, until your normal form's DEX comes up, you're awfully soft and squishy.

 

And that assumes you don't mind blowing your secret ID the first time trouble occurs. If you go hunting for a place to change in secret in your normal ID, it could take you a couple phases - which, at SPD 2, removes you from the first half of the typical fight!

 

By and large, I am inclined to be lenient with OIHID. It's too classic a superhero thing to be stingy with. That is, however, just my opinion.

[Ice9]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I don't get where the Shapeshift issue is coming from, anyway. If you didn't need to buy Shapeshift in 5E, you shouldn't need to buy it in 6E either. Even in 5E, OIHID didn't give you shapeshifting beyond what was already provided by the SFX of activating a power. If that level is all you need, then putting Perceivable on some Resistant Defense or whatnot should do it just fine.

 

And if the DM is being strict about requiring Shapeshift, then just get Multiform. You don't have to do anything cheesy with it; just leave any excess points unspent in your "normal" form.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that even if a character looks like a giant heap of granite, to someone with enhanced senses, he isn't perceived that way, because of the way Shapeshift is written. SID, Blown, fear the dog. I'm willing to roll with the "Activation of Powers as a O Phase Action" bit, but the problem is, people will get all snarky over it, because it grants the ability to be perceived differently by enhanced sense groups for free. I couldn't care less, but my players are raising a stink.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Whatever.

 

It's been pointed out over and over with BOOK QUOTES why Shapeshift isn't required.

 

If that isn't good enough the forums can't help you anymore.

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that even if a character looks like a giant heap of granite' date=' to someone with enhanced senses, he isn't perceived that way, because of the way Shapeshift is written. SID, Blown, fear the dog. I'm willing to roll with the "Activation of Powers as a O Phase Action" bit, but the problem is, people will get all snarky over it, because it grants the ability to be perceived differently by enhanced sense groups for free. I couldn't care less, but my players are raising a stink.[/quote']

RAW or go with player's intent. Not really an issue, but a matter of choice.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Fourthly, what illegality are you referring to regarding a Multiform character retaining the same personality among their Multiforms?

 

 

**************************

MULTIFORM exerpt:

 

Each form a character can change into is as

free-willed as the original character. The player

must have a complete character sheet for each

form (or some other way to keep track of the abilities

and experiences of each form). Forms may

have different abilities, personalities, or Complications

than the true form or each other, if the

player so desires (the character’s personality often

remains the same from form to form, and in any

form he retains the memories from other forms

unless he has the Multiform Amnesia Psychological

Complication described below).

 

If the forms happen to buy the same abilities or Skills, that’s

simply the nature of the different forms. Characters

may not take a Limitation or Complication

for this, nor may a character buy an ability or Skill

once and somehow “share” it with all of his forms.

*******************************

 

The first sentence, right at the top of the Multiform block, states

 

"A character with this Standard Power can change his original form into one or more other forms, each with its own abilities, personality, and

Characteristics."

 

It later says exactly what you said. So which is it? It cannot be both, sir. This is why I hate Multiform and the way it works. It doesn't fulfill the promise of anything it's supposed to do, especially now that the base power is 400 points and I can get an 80 point normal with 4 400 point multiforms as the base character, and that's without a multipower or VPP of Multiforms. That's why I always insist that each Multiform be substantially different from the others, why the same personality shouldn't be located in each character unless the base creature is far dumber than the main mind (Shapechange into Animals Man), and why I really dislike this power.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The first sentence, right at the top of the Multiform block, states

 

"A character with this Standard Power can change his original form into one or more other forms, each with its own abilities, personality, and

Characteristics."

 

It's presenting the option to change a characters personality via multiform.

 

This is NOT the same thing as stating a requirement to do so.

 

When the book says:

 

"Examples of Blasts include a superhero’s force blast, many types of blunt throwing weapons, a wizard’s bolt of mystic energy, rubber bullets, or a Galactic Trooper’s blaster rifle..."

 

Do you insist that those are the only possible uses/special effects for Blast?

 

This is why I hate Multiform and the way it works.

 

Yes, well, I've been known to not like things I don't understand as well

 

It doesn't fulfill the promise of anything it's supposed to do, especially now that the base power is 400 points and I can get an 80 point normal with 4 400 point multiforms as the base character, and that's without a multipower or VPP of Multiforms.

 

Are you implying that a feature of the HERO System toolbox, left unchecked by the GM, could be abused?

 

SAY IT AIN'T SO!

 

The answer to your problem, which still has nothing to do with 6E might I add, remains the same...

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that even if a character looks like a giant heap of granite' date=' to someone with enhanced senses, he isn't perceived that way, because of the way Shapeshift is written. SID, Blown, fear the dog. I'm willing to roll with the "Activation of Powers as a O Phase Action" bit, but the problem is, people will get all snarky over it, because it grants the ability to be perceived differently by enhanced sense groups for free. I couldn't care less, but my players are raising a stink.[/quote']

 

Just say NO!

 

Shapeshift is only required for Characters that can change their body to look like multiple people (ie Mr Fantastic, D&D Doppleganger etc)

 

IF your players get snarky over it. Show them the rules that show that you are right. Hell show them Killer Shrike's totally wonderful and well written posts. I am sure that if you look you can find the same sections in both 5e, 5er and 6e1&6e2.

 

Tell your players that they are OVERTHINKING the transformation of body thing. That turning on their powers is GOOD ENOUGH!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that even if a character looks like a giant heap of granite' date=' to someone with enhanced senses, he isn't perceived that way, because of the way Shapeshift is written. SID, Blown, fear the dog. I'm willing to roll with the "Activation of Powers as a O Phase Action" bit, but the problem is, people will get all snarky over it, because it grants the ability to be perceived differently by enhanced sense groups for free. I couldn't care less, but my players are raising a stink.[/quote']

 

I think you are over thinking this.

 

How would you build the Human Torch?

 

AFAIK, he registers to common senses as a normal human as long as he's not using his powers. But he surely shows up differently (body of flame) to various senses when he is using his powers.

 

The real question should be...

Is that a positive or a negative for the character?

I'd lean towards negative and note it as a disad/complication (if at all).

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I think you are over thinking this.

 

How would you build the Human Torch?

 

AFAIK, he registers to common senses as a normal human as long as he's not using his powers. But he surely shows up differently (body of flame) to various senses when he is using his powers.

 

The real question should be...

Is that a positive or a negative for the character?

I'd lean towards negative and note it as a disad/complication (if at all).

How so? Johnny has complete and total control of the temp when he's lit up. Other people might have a problem with him, but there's also the Reputation factor that the Fantastic Four have built since their founding.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Thank you. In the future, please don't raise your internet voice by posting in caps. It can be considered rude, and/or offensive. I wasn't offended, but please be aware that there are people who might be.

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

FYI: single word in caps is stressing. Not "shouting".

 

All caps is shouting.

[Yansuf]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Thank you. In the future' date=' please don't raise your internet voice by posting in caps. It can be considered rude, and/or offensive. I wasn't offended, but please be aware that there are people who might be.[/quote']

 

Just curious, but who posted in caps? I didn't see it.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The first sentence, right at the top of the Multiform block, states

 

"A character with this Standard Power can change his original form into one or more other forms, each with its own abilities, personality, and

Characteristics."

 

It later says exactly what you said. So which is it? It cannot be both, sir. This is why I hate Multiform and the way it works. It doesn't fulfill the promise of anything it's supposed to do, especially now that the base power is 400 points and I can get an 80 point normal with 4 400 point multiforms as the base character, and that's without a multipower or VPP of Multiforms. That's why I always insist that each Multiform be substantially different from the others, why the same personality shouldn't be located in each character unless the base creature is far dumber than the main mind (Shapechange into Animals Man), and why I really dislike this power.

 

Multiform works for folk who transform into a completely different character. You don't have to have a different personality, though you can have different Skills, powers, Complication from the base form.

 

It's great for things like the Druid that becomes a variety of different animals (and not just an aspect of the animal), or the Dragon that has a Human form that can do stuff that the Dragon cannot, Lycantropy can be bought with this power esp if The character changes enough to make the other forms different.

 

Not all folk who change need Multiform. ie Bruce Banner changes into The Hulk by turning on his levels in Growth and Density Increase (along with his other defenses). During those short periods when The Thing can change back into his Ben Grimm human form, he just turns off his Density increase. The Wolfman turns on his various powers to Change.

 

I think that you have players who have been playing for at least since 4th edition. I remember that we used to do foolish things in 4e like buying Shapeshift to change to a single form. Though turning on powers to change to super form (even if that form was a huge Grey rock or a Dragon person) has been part of the system since forever. 5e Changed the way many characters were constructed (ie Growth and Shrinking always on was used to permanently change the size of people. in 5e you just say that they character is that tall, buy a Disad and you are go to go).

 

I highly recommend rereading the rules books. There were many changes in 5E that are still true on 6E. There are many more clarifications in 6e than even in 5er. Forget what you know about character building in 4e and before. Things are different now.

 

Read and learn the changes.

 

There will be a quiz on Friday.... (j/k)

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Thank you. In the future' date=' please don't raise your internet voice by posting in caps. It can be considered rude, and/or offensive. I wasn't offended, but please be aware that there are people who might be.[/quote']

 

Yes I stress words by posting a single word in caps. I guess I could use Bold but typing the tags tends to break the flow of thought.

 

I am SORRY if I offended you.

 

If I am angry enough to post in all caps for everything, I just delete the post.

 

SO THIS IS SHOUTING.

THIS is stressing a single word to make a point.

 

YMMV

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Just curious' date=' but who posted in caps? I didn't see it.[/quote']

 

That would be me I think. I guess GA also.

 

Just another tempest in a teapot, Drag his horse to the water, but he won't drink thread.