6E Mess

[teh bunneh]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that someone usually believes that someone else at the table has a game breaker power' date=' and it's not always the same person, Mr. Rabbit. [/quote']

 

That's never really been a problem in my games. If one of the PCs kicks butt in combat, the tactic usually becomes "Rally around the big guy and follow his lead!" Then, when the investigation phase of the adventure begins, the Dark Detective character takes center stage. No one ever seems to say, "Awwww, the Dark Detective with his Uncanny Deduction power always seems to solve the mystery quicker than anyone else! It's not fair." I guess I've never understood why people sometimes say, "The Big Blue Boy Scout's got better combat powers than me, it's not fair!"

 

:shrug:

 

Also, I have multiple PC groups in the same world. If they fight, it should be interesting, not a blowout. It's happened twice in 25 years, but you know, I figure that everyone deserves a fair shot at winning a battle like that.

 

Wellllll... yes and no.

 

I've been running a Fantasy campaign set in the same world for, give or take, some 30 years, for many different groups of players. If any one group of (similar points) characters met another group, it might be a fair fight or it might be a cakewalk, depending on the group.

 

For example, one of the groups were all professional monster-killers. They regularly fought giants, trolls, and magical beasts of every type. They were optimized for combat. They had their tactics down pat.

 

Another group were police officers from an enlightened nation. They were very good at investigating crimes and subduing (not killing) ordinary criminals. The ocassional supernatural beastie usually gave them a run for their money, and they generally only won by out-thinking rather than out-fighting it.

 

Another group were deeply involved in the byzantine politics of a corrupt state. They were really good at negotiating trade contracts and dealing with grumpy nobles, not so great at fighting (apart from the odd duel now and again).

 

And dozens of other groups, that were all good at one thing or another -- sometimes combat related, sometimes not so much.

 

Even when they were all at the same power level, the monster-hunters would stomp all over the others. And that would be perfectly alright -- they were designed to go out and kill whatever stood in their way. The others were geared up for combat with more mundane foes, or weren't geared up for combat at all.

 

In the comics source material, it's the same way. If the Avengers fought the Marvel Knights, the Avengers would win, hands down. The Marvel Knights spent their points in different places and they focus on different things. So I don't personally worry that much about combat parity between groups.

 

But again, your game your rules. My game my rules. Game on.

 

I've always believed that rules should apply to everyone equally.

 

Of course they should. Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, though.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

As well, if the Limitation is solely that the character doesn't WANT to do X (they can, but they don't want to), the limitation can be overridden by Mind Control.

 

PC: "Right now, I'd love to kill him for what he has done, but that would be wrong."

 

Mentalist Teammate: "Mind Control him to kill the opponent - should be no problem since it's some thing he wants to do anyway."

 

PC: "Oh, the terrible angst"

 

Player of PC: "Thanks for getting me out of the negative impact of my limitation."

 

 

 

In 6e, not all powers that cost END are equally visible. Attacks are more visible, and more passive powers fall into a middle ground between obvious and invisible.

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy, you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation. This limitation can kill a PC dead in less time than you can say "Jack Robinson." The argument that this is a zero point limitation would only apply if the limitation itself was also worth a zero and was a power manifestation, as mentioned earlier. Then you could abort to turn it on instantly. But once you take the power limitation, you can't anymore.

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID. Sometimes, they even have destructive actions that occur before the PC's get to go or do anything. It's "The Advantage of Being Evil." How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window? Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever. We'll call it "A lot." If he's even conscious after the bus has landed, he can fight the villain. More than likely, however, he won't be. That's what the limitation is meant to represent, because you can't abort to OIAID.

 

That's why this limitation can still be -1/4 even if you can instantly transform, because not everyone is aware that the bus is coming. Now, if the player with OIAID bought Danger Sense that worked all the time, I would definitely say "For you, this limitation is a zero, because you almost always know when the attack is going to happen, and that reduces the value to less than the 1/4 limit." 360 Degree Spatial Awareness would probably also do this too, unless it stopped at the window of the restaurant, in which case it would probably be a little too late to notice the bus at the moment it shatters the glass.

 

The issue with OIAID is twofold. One, Steve always receives lots of complaints about people who abuse OIAID, so when he got a chance, he changed the limitation to make it work a little differently. Two, the limitation doesn't always do what it should in terms of representing things, and makes people go for Multiform no matter how much their power should be an alternate identity of some kind.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy, you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation. This limitation can kill a PC dead in less time than you can say "Jack Robinson." The argument that this is a zero point limitation would only apply if the limitation itself was also worth a zero and was a power manifestation, as mentioned earlier. Then you could abort to turn it on instantly. But once you take the power limitation, you can't anymore.

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID. Sometimes, they even have destructive actions that occur before the PC's get to go or do anything. It's "The Advantage of Being Evil." How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window? Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever. We'll call it "A lot." If he's even conscious after the bus has landed, he can fight the villain. More than likely, however, he won't be. That's what the limitation is meant to represent, because you can't abort to OIAID.

 

That's why this limitation can still be -1/4 even if you can instantly transform, because not everyone is aware that the bus is coming. Now, if the player with OIAID bought Danger Sense that worked all the time, I would definitely say "For you, this limitation is a zero, because you almost always know when the attack is going to happen, and that reduces the value to less than the 1/4 limit." 360 Degree Spatial Awareness would probably also do this too, unless it stopped at the window of the restaurant, in which case it would probably be a little too late to notice the bus at the moment it shatters the glass.

 

The issue with OIAID is twofold. One, Steve always receives lots of complaints about people who abuse OIAID, so when he got a chance, he changed the limitation to make it work a little differently. Two, the limitation doesn't always do what it should in terms of representing things, and makes people go for Multiform no matter how much their power should be an alternate identity of some kind.

 

It's worked the same way since 4th edition. Changing clothes (ie getting into Heroic ID costume takes a Full Phase (pg 41 BBB aka Champs 4th ed, aka Big Blue Book). The limitation mentions that "There is usually some difficulty in Switching forms, unless character bought Instant Change" (pg 110 BBB). Therefore OIHID would take a full phase in 4th edition

5th edition says "For this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms - the change must take a full phase if not longer (during which the character may do nothing else), and/or there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities

6th edition says exactly the same thing as 5th edition. It does include some extra examples where the limitations are greater than a full phase (armor taking longer than a phase to put on. not being able to say a magic word while gagged)

 

Again I say to you, that you have been using a faulty interpretation of the rule since at least 4th edition (I don't believe that OIHID officially existed in 3rd edition). 5th spelled out what was implied in 4th edition. 6th edition just changes the name, not the rules behind it.

 

So forget what you know about the rules. Reread everything from the beginning with the idea that this is a new edition and that many things have changed.

 

As for you throwing cars at Heroes in Secret ID, that only works for SpiderMan. You would never see a comic author setting up their characters to die. If you are setting up situations where this happens you are doing a disservice to both your game and your guests (ie the PCs) who play in your world. You put them in an impossible situation that will only cause their characters to die or be put out of the game for a long time. IMHO that is just bad GMing.

 

Tasha

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

That's never really been a problem in my games. If one of the PCs kicks butt in combat' date=' the tactic usually becomes "Rally around the big guy and follow his lead!" Then, when the investigation phase of the adventure begins, the Dark Detective character takes center stage. No one ever seems to say, "Awwww, the Dark Detective with his Uncanny Deduction power always seems to solve the mystery quicker than anyone else! It's not fair." I guess I've never understood why people sometimes say, "The Big Blue Boy Scout's got better combat powers than me, it's not fair!"[/quote']

 

This is more my experience as well. The PC's tend to work as a team. When we first ran a 3rd Ed D&D game, my character was a Fighter looking to get Whirlwind Attack. I had more or less written off the majority of the intervening feats as a necessary evil to get to Whirlwind Attack. My job was to get up there and fight.

 

Then I noticed how much damage the Rogue was inflicting with Sneak Attack. **wow** I think we were 5th level, so she got an extra 3d6. That's the point when I realized one of those feats allowed me to drop my attack bonus by 5 for +5 AC (that one I had used), another gave me an AC bonus against attacks of opportunity and a third allowed me to attack a target while moving to deny him any attacks of opportunity against me.

 

So I could slap 5 points to my AC, make a halfhearted swing against the Big Opponent and freely run around him so the Rogue could get sneak attacks. Any minions with attacks of opportunity were operating against a +9 AC bonus. Who cares whether I lose a round of attacking? I don't get a 3d6 damage bonus!

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy, you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation. This limitation can kill a PC dead in less time than you can say "Jack Robinson." The argument that this is a zero point limitation would only apply if the limitation itself was also worth a zero and was a power manifestation, as mentioned earlier. Then you could abort to turn it on instantly. But once you take the power limitation, you can't anymore.

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID. Sometimes, they even have destructive actions that occur before the PC's get to go or do anything. It's "The Advantage of Being Evil." How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window? Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever. We'll call it "A lot." If he's even conscious after the bus has landed, he can fight the villain. More than likely, however, he won't be. That's what the limitation is meant to represent, because you can't abort to OIAID.

 

How many movies or comics have the character KO'd, maimed or killed by that initial shot? Very few, in my experience, as the point is not to remove the character from the action. Nor should that be the point in-game. Making a -1/4 limitation for "The GM can KO or kill your character at any time" seems pointless. The GM can KO or kill any character at any time.

[Theron]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy, you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation. This limitation can kill a PC dead in less time than you can say "Jack Robinson." The argument that this is a zero point limitation would only apply if the limitation itself was also worth a zero and was a power manifestation, as mentioned earlier. Then you could abort to turn it on instantly. But once you take the power limitation, you can't anymore.

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID. Sometimes, they even have destructive actions that occur before the PC's get to go or do anything. It's "The Advantage of Being Evil." How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window? Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever. We'll call it "A lot." If he's even conscious after the bus has landed, he can fight the villain. More than likely, however, he won't be. That's what the limitation is meant to represent, because you can't abort to OIAID.

 

That's why this limitation can still be -1/4 even if you can instantly transform, because not everyone is aware that the bus is coming. Now, if the player with OIAID bought Danger Sense that worked all the time, I would definitely say "For you, this limitation is a zero, because you almost always know when the attack is going to happen, and that reduces the value to less than the 1/4 limit." 360 Degree Spatial Awareness would probably also do this too, unless it stopped at the window of the restaurant, in which case it would probably be a little too late to notice the bus at the moment it shatters the glass.

 

The issue with OIAID is twofold. One, Steve always receives lots of complaints about people who abuse OIAID, so when he got a chance, he changed the limitation to make it work a little differently. Two, the limitation doesn't always do what it should in terms of representing things, and makes people go for Multiform no matter how much their power should be an alternate identity of some kind.

 

Man.

 

I mean, it's your game, YMMV, and you can run it how you like, but I'm so glad you're not my GM.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy, you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation. This limitation can kill a PC dead in less time than you can say "Jack Robinson." The argument that this is a zero point limitation would only apply if the limitation itself was also worth a zero and was a power manifestation, as mentioned earlier. Then you could abort to turn it on instantly. But once you take the power limitation, you can't anymore.

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID. Sometimes, they even have destructive actions that occur before the PC's get to go or do anything. It's "The Advantage of Being Evil." How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window? Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever. We'll call it "A lot." If he's even conscious after the bus has landed, he can fight the villain. More than likely, however, he won't be. That's what the limitation is meant to represent, because you can't abort to OIAID.

 

That's why this limitation can still be -1/4 even if you can instantly transform, because not everyone is aware that the bus is coming. Now, if the player with OIAID bought Danger Sense that worked all the time, I would definitely say "For you, this limitation is a zero, because you almost always know when the attack is going to happen, and that reduces the value to less than the 1/4 limit." 360 Degree Spatial Awareness would probably also do this too, unless it stopped at the window of the restaurant, in which case it would probably be a little too late to notice the bus at the moment it shatters the glass.

We deal with OIHID in our campaign the same way you do. I agree that not having Powers available 100% of the time has some value as a Limitation; and it can certainly generate a certain synergy with trying to maintain a Secret ID if a character's powers are in any way obvious. As you noted certain power combinations might negate the discount, but I think normally the minor price break provided by OIHID (a 20% discount if it's the only Limitation; even less if it's stacked with others) will let most things fly as long as the character spends a significant amount of time in civilian ID. OTOH, if they always power up before leaving the Fortress of Invincibility to pick up a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread, they're bypassing the intent of the Limitation.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

We deal with OIHID in our campaign the same way you do. I agree that not having Powers available 100% of the time has some value as a Limitation; and it can certainly generate a certain synergy with trying to maintain a Secret ID if a character's powers are in any way obvious. As you noted certain power combinations might negate the discount' date=' but I think normally the minor price break provided by OIHID (a 20% discount if it's the only Limitation; even less if it's stacked with others) will let most things fly as long as the character spends a significant amount of time in civilian ID. OTOH, if they always power up before leaving the Fortress of Invincibility to pick up a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread, they're bypassing the intent of the Limitation.[/quote']

 

Well, Treb, if they do that, just take it away! See, I run a game where ICA=ICC. If someone decides in his SID to do something that a villain gets wind of, and then the villain shows up, that's just comic book logic talking. The villain's not gonna come looking for the hero in Hero ID, and villains like big entrances, dramatic poses, etc. Not every villain can hurl around a bus, but sometimes...it does happen.

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It's not a question of want. It's a question of physical transformation. If you are a DEX 10 guy who turns into a Dex 23 guy' date=' you don't get to transform until Dex 10. Only in Alternate ID is meant to be a limitation in and out of combat. I only let people who have a "Physical Transformation" power have it in the first place. You can't abort to change into Hero ID, because it requires an entire phase to get it to work

 

Well, this is another example of you seemign not to understand the rule--or feeling compelled to use them in an adversarial way versus players. aborting to what can be generally determined to be a defensive action isn't game breaking--and if you intend to launch near fatality attacks against players in their Secret ID's without warning.......

 

. So if on Dex 11, the character gets caught in a 3d6 Killing Explosion (Huge in my game, but reasonable), chances are, he's bleeding to death on the ground. He's not in his hero ID, he's just bleeding to death on the ground. That's why it's a limitation.

 

No, its not a limitation. His power was available, he chose not to have it up. Dexterity infinity guy is in the same situation if he is surprised when his powers are off.

 

 

Often, villains do attack places where the heroes are in Secret ID.

 

And, as the GM controlling those actions its up to you to make the scenario challenging, even moreso for those with certain limitations but not an automatic deathtrap.

 

How many scenes have you seen in movies and comics where the first thing that happens is Spidey's Danger sense goes off, or the characters are talking in a perfectly ordinary restaurant, and someone throws a bus through the window?

 

You mean the ones the heroes always seem to live through?

 

Now, if the character has OIAID, he's going to probably take some damage from the bus with no defenses whatsoever.

 

Only if the player doesnt take any of the man possibel defensive actiosn here--aborting to a normal dive for cover, or taking some form of cover, going prone, etc..

 

again, the fact the payer chooses to not have his power on for social limitations is not a limitation on the power. It's a consequence of the disadvantage. If the player doesn't want any consequnces of the disadvantage..then don't take it. Surprise assasinations attempts with no defensive action allowed however, isnt a fair and reasonable consequnce of a disadvantage.

 

 

 

That's why this limitation can still be -1/4 even if you can instantly transform, because not everyone is aware that the bus is coming.

 

I can actually be ok with the instanty transform, depending on the FX--but I usually ask for a balancing condition like certain circumstances can prevent the transformation. (When Super Armor guy is suddenly in a null-particle field, he finds the teleporter that instantly places his armor on him doesn't work). Thats a case by case working of OIHD, but its still in the realm of what is an actual limitation--a situation that isnt the result of a character decision.

 

 

 

 

The issue with OIAID is twofold. One, Steve always receives lots of complaints about people who abuse OIAID, so when he got a chance, he changed the limitation to make it work a little differently. Two, the limitation doesn't always do what it should in terms of representing things, and makes people go for Multiform no matter how much their power should be an alternate identity of some kind.

 

I've never heard of peopel goinjg for multiform due to problems with OIHD--I've heard of players hoping to exploit multiform after getting excited and thinking the GM isn't goign to dampen their munchkin ambitions. the limitation really works well at representign the effect--what it doesnt do well, and shouldn't do be expected to do well, is mimic the problems caused by having a secret identity.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Well' date=' Treb, if they do that, just take it away! See, I run a game where ICA=ICC. If someone decides in his SID to do something that a villain gets wind of, and then the villain shows up, that's just comic book logic talking. The villain's not gonna come looking for the hero in Hero ID, and villains like big entrances, dramatic poses, etc. Not every villain can hurl around a bus, but sometimes...it does happen.[/quote']I was thinking more along the lines of defenses or enhanced senses not working while the character in in his civilian ID, so they'd be considerably more vulnerable to surprise attacks or other emergencies. Bad enough to be caught by surprise (thus taking 2X Stun damage) but the character's defenses might well be half or less of what they are in their hero ID. Something as mundane as a car crash, construction site accident, or liquor store robbery could be a significant threat. Even if the character aborts to a defensive action, it will take a Phase to get the OIHID/OIAID Powers active.

 

To me, that's certainly worth a -¼ Limitation.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I was thinking more along the lines of defenses or enhanced senses not working while the character in in his civilian ID, so they'd be considerably more vulnerable to surprise attacks or other emergencies. Bad enough to be caught by surprise (thus taking 2X Stun damage) but the character's defenses might well be half or more of what they are in their hero ID. Something as mundane as a car crash, construction site accident, or liquor store robbery could be a significant threat. Even if the character aborts to a defensive action, it will take a Phase to get the OIHID/OIAID Powers active.

 

To me, that's certainly worth a -¼ Limitation.

 

Yeah, in 6e OIHID powers cannot be normally aborted to (example 6e pg 21). Though it would depend on how the ID is changed.

[IKerensky]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I know I am a total newbie, so please forgive but...

 

In Balabanto Stadium example, to benefit of his massive AOE his hero is supposed to be flying 32 meters above the stadium, right ? Any altitude lower will shorten the radius of the AOE in proportion.

 

Of course he could fly lower and shoot in diagons but his result will be an oblong circle not of very larger area....

 

So my question is : is it really such a tremendous advantage if you consider the trouble he have for being flying so high above... Times to go up there, vulnerability (no place to hide, plain view of everyone ), worse L.O.S. because there is plenty of vertical coverage (foilage, flags,tents, umbrella) that make his target identification harder. Just go up a 10 story builidng and look below you, plenty of things are now covered that weren't at groud level... and interior of buildings are probably now out of reach...

 

Also there is the trouble not to affect friends and civilians in the blast, at this distance there is some delay before impact and situation is moving rapidly...

 

P.S. European I.Q of 165 ... hoped it was enough to post...

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I know I am a total newbie, so please forgive but...

 

In Balabanto Stadium example, to benefit of his massive AOE his hero is supposed to be flying 32 meters above the stadium, right ? Any altitude lower will shorten the radius of the AOE in proportion.

 

Of course he could fly lower and shoot in diagons but his result will be an oblong circle not of very larger area....

 

So my question is : is it really such a tremendous advantage if you consider the trouble he have for being flying so high above... Times to go up there, vulnerability (no place to hide, plain view of everyone ), worse L.O.S. because there is plenty of vertical coverage (foilage, flags,tents, umbrella) that make his target identification harder. Just go up a 10 story builidng and look below you, plenty of things are now covered that weren't at groud level... and interior of buildings are probably now out of reach...

 

Also there is the trouble not to affect friends and civilians in the blast, at this distance there is some delay before impact and situation is moving rapidly...

 

P.S. European I.Q of 165 ... hoped it was enough to post...

Balabanto's rant against AoE Cone (post #59) was ludicrously overstated. According to 6E (p 320), the base area affected by an AoE Cone is only 8 meters on a side. I'm not much good at math, but if I figured right that's much closer to being 8 meters in diameter than 32 meters. A 32 meter diameter cone would cost +¾.

 

The 6E AoE got cheaper. It also covers a smaller area. It's a wash IMO.

 

Welcome to Hero, where we'll be debating nitpicky details until Hell freezes over.

[Theron]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Welcome to Hero' date=' where we'll be debating nitpicky details until Hell freezes over. [/quote']

 

Hell, we'll be debating how much Change Environment it takes to freeze Hell over while it's freezing over.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

That is now up to the GM. Temperature Levels are now subjective rather than absolute. (Thank God.)

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I know I am a total newbie, so please forgive but...

 

In Balabanto Stadium example, to benefit of his massive AOE his hero is supposed to be flying 32 meters above the stadium, right ? Any altitude lower will shorten the radius of the AOE in proportion.

 

Of course he could fly lower and shoot in diagons but his result will be an oblong circle not of very larger area....

 

So my question is : is it really such a tremendous advantage if you consider the trouble he have for being flying so high above... Times to go up there, vulnerability (no place to hide, plain view of everyone ), worse L.O.S. because there is plenty of vertical coverage (foilage, flags,tents, umbrella) that make his target identification harder. Just go up a 10 story builidng and look below you, plenty of things are now covered that weren't at groud level... and interior of buildings are probably now out of reach...

 

Also there is the trouble not to affect friends and civilians in the blast, at this distance there is some delay before impact and situation is moving rapidly...

 

P.S. European I.Q of 165 ... hoped it was enough to post...

 

Does that 165 IQ come with Telepathy? Because you basically posted what I was thinking. It probably takes the AOE Attacker a full phase to get into position, during which he becomes Target #1 by anybody that has seen the character pull that stunt before. And if it's a hero pulling it, all the agents have to do is have nice soft civilian hostages among them.

 

Add to that the fact that if someone can throw a Barrier between the attacker and the ground, they can reduce the damage enough to most likely keep those agents from being stunned. It doesn't even need to be all that big a Barrier, area-wise, depending how close you put it to the attacker.

 

Example: Attacker is 32 meters up and throwing a 32-meter long AP Cone Blast, hoping for that 32-meter diameter circle of damage on the ground. One agent (who was Holding an action) uses a Force Wall Projector to create an 16m x 16m Barrier, midway between the attacker and the ground. I'm still a newbie to 6th Edition so I may be wrong, but an 16m x 16m Barrier with 7 PD, 7 ED, and 6 BODY costs 60 points -- expensive, but do-able. Stops NNDs cold (just like a wall), and would do the same if the AP Blast doesn't roll at least 10 BODY.

 

[Edit: at the point the cone intersects the barrier, it's only 16 meters in diameter.]

 

Let's say it does at least 10 BODY. A literal interpretation of the rules says that beating the BODY creates a 2m x 2m hole in the Barrier (or 4m x 4m from +1 BODY, or 8m x 8m from +2 BODY, or completely destroyed from +3 BODY). Since it's an AOE, I could see someone saying that 10 BODY from an AP attack over an 16-meter area would create a 16-meter hole in the Barrier, effectively destroying it. So we'll go with that for argument's sake. Even then, the damage hitting the agents on the ground is now reduced by 10 points, and the agents are likely not stunned after subtracting defenses. Hurt and likely pissed as heck, but not stunned.

 

But any civilian hostages in that area? They'll probably be unconscious. Looks bad for the hero. And if the hero blasts again before the agent can re-erect the Barrier? He now does 8-9 BODY damage to all the civilians, past their 1-2 PD after the AP.

VIPER Agent: "We say SuperLad flying over us and suspected he might try to blast everyone indiscriminately. I knew the civilians would be toast, so I projected a Force Barrier to protect everyone. But SuperLad just blew past it, and kept blasting... (sob)"

Can you say PR nightmare for the hero? I knew you could.

[rayoman]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I want to prevent bad or stupid game outcomes' date=' and I think 75 points is just too much. [/quote']

 

Then you need to not have any players who are human.

 

 

 

We have fun. The game is good. It works. Stories get told that are fun and interesting.

 

With this outcome everyone wins. Now it begs to question, Why are you worried about something KillerShrike wrapped up in nice explanations a few pages back?

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Note: My same thought applies to a villain AOE attacker. The hero throws up a Barrier, or hits the villain with an Entangle. Sure, an AP attack probably blows past the Entangle, but it reduces the damage (especially the BODY) and the hero just saved a bunch of bystanders from getting toasted.