6E Mess

[Balabanto]

Welcome to my little problem! Here we go!

 

Today, I ran into some intriguing 6e rules constructions that prohibit existing characters from being converted easily. Here are the concepts in question.

 

1) A is a heroic fire projector who inherited a wish from a dragon. She transforms into a beautiful superheroine with fire powers.

 

Problem #1: Rules as Written, A cannot take Only in Hero ID, as there is nothing to prevent her from changing other than her own force of will.

 

Problem #2: She could buy Shapeshift, where her height, weight, and appearance change, but this is counterproductive for what it offers. It costs SIXTY EIGHT points, which is likely less than Ember ever spent in limitations on Only in Hero ID.

 

Problem #3: Multiform is also out, because she retains her original personality, which means, rules as written, this is also illegal.

 

2) B is a teen, around five foot nine who transforms into a massive heap of humanoid rock.

 

All problems as above.

 

How did this happen? That makes a hero who transforms from an ordinary human into something completely different a legless cripple compared to his fellows, since the Only In Hero ID limitation must take at least a full phase to work and must have a means of being interrupted, whereas the others are 1) Prohibitively expensive or 2) Illegal.

 

IMHO, 68 points is WAY too much to pay for turning into a slightly hotter hot chick, and it's also WAY too much to pay for turning into Granite Boy.

 

Thoughts?

[jtelson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I just did a quick scan and I didn't see much difference between Only in Hero ID from 5thRev and Only in Alternate ID in 6th.

 

5th rev page 302 - Must have difficulty changing forms, at least a full phase, other difficulties or ways to prevent.

 

What's the change that you're seeing?

[fbdaury]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Easy solution- use the OIHID, but look at it this way: must concentrate to change as it is force of will that causes change (your words) so, it takes full phase and anything that breaks concentration stops change- use common sense but flashes, actual attacks, even Pre attacks should all break the necessary concentration and make change end.

[tarragon]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It sounds to me like there is no point for looking for a bonus like OIHID. If neither character is limited by the process of the change its not a limitation. I mean I'm stating the obvious here, but if it's not limiting them then it's not worth any points.

 

Instead for both these characters the physical transform is just an aspect of turning on their powers. If there are some aspects that are limited by this dichotomy such as your super heroine being more beautiful in hero form then give here some striking appearance linked to or some kind of custom unusable with other powers in her suite.

[Zed-F]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Yep, a 0-phase OIHID is just a SFX of power activation and is a -0 limitation.

[mattingly]

Re: 6E Mess

 

You don't need Shape Shift. Just buy Instant Change for 3 points. (6E1-307)

[Heroic Halfwit]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Balabanto,

 

How much does Ember's height, weight, and appearance change? Have you thought about the Instant Change kludge from FRED?

 

With the right clothes and cosmetics it's pretty easy to make someone appear slightly taller/shorter, etc. etc. I don't have a copy of 6th yet, still on the boat I hear, but if it's only a change in "appearance" instant change should do it.

 

I'm surprised that multiform now requires a personality change. But for Rock Boy:

 

Put the Visible limitation on Density Increase, maybe 0 End and persistent if you want to make sure he stay's Rocked up, if knocked out and the like.

 

Just a thought.

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It sounds to me like there is no point for looking for a bonus like OIHID. If neither character is limited by the process of the change its not a limitation. I mean I'm stating the obvious here, but if it's not limiting them then it's not worth any points.

 

Instead for both these characters the physical transform is just an aspect of turning on their powers. If there are some aspects that are limited by this dichotomy such as your super heroine being more beautiful in hero form then give here some striking appearance linked to or some kind of custom unusable with other powers in her suite.

 

some of us disagree with the notion that walking around normaly in a non powered form is not disadvantageous. Personaly I feel that if a character is non powered most of the time (Instead of just hiding his powers) that it is worth a point savings.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Most of these just sound like SFX of turning on various powers.

 

If there's nothing that can prevent Power activation Only In Alternage Identity isn't really applicable (and as a note: that same statement is true of 5E-OIHID so you had that problem before - don't pretend it's new!!)

 

If the Character is already buying all the aspects of being larger/better/looking/heavier already as part of properly modeling the new form then the point expenditure is a bit moot, eh? i.e. This isn't an actual problem - just someone complaining that they have to spend points to model what they want.

 

And finally, there's nothing about Multiform that Requires a whole new personality; your reading of the rules is psychotically harsh, and completely off the mark of the intent and spirit. One of the examples is a battlesuit that can be reconfigured - do you seriously expect me to believe the wearer changes personalities because they went from Space Battle Suit to Heavy Guns Battlesuit? REALLY!?!!? BS.

 

Personally, Multiform makes a lot of sense for both characters to me - they change forms completely and totally into new bodies.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

some of us disagree with the notion that walking around normaly in a non powered form is not disadvantageous. Personaly I feel that if a character is non powered most of the time (Instead of just hiding his powers) that it is worth a point savings.

 

How much of a point savings? OIHID is -1/4, and requires a full phase or some other way of preventing the change. That doesn't leave a lot of room for lesser limitations.

 

Perhaps the character might have a Physical Complication ("powers not on in normal form"). Alternatively, both characters would seem to have Distinctive Features, which are a bit easier to conceal because they can remove the distinctiveness at the cost of losing access to their powers.

 

A further savings could be obtained if they apply "visible" to the powers only usable in that unusual form which would not normally be visible. I'd say shifting to Rock form or Dragon form makes the fact you are using extra defenses pretty visible.

 

EDIT: To echo Ghost Angel, this is not a 5e to 6e change. OIHID required the same restrictions in 5e.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is the way Enhanced Senses work, GA. Remember, the moment someone buys radar, they see something different. The character still smells the same, even though they shouldn't, because they're a big lump of granite, on fire, etc.

 

Otherwise, boom, SID blown. Sixty eight points is way too expensive compared to the cost of those complications. By a DOG. An ordinary dog owned by an ordinary seventy year old.

 

And the Instant Change kludge doesn't work for the fire projector because she actually changes her height, weight, etc. That's not a "Costume."

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I have no idea what you're talking about with that post. . . .

[Rockhoof]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Problem #3: Multiform is also out, because she retains her original personality, which means, rules as written, this is also illegal.

 

Your interpretation is incorrect. One of the examples given is:

 

...a character whose suit of armor can “reconfigure” itself into many different types of armor;

 

No change in personality is required to use multiform. It is a sufficient condition to rationalize the use of multiform, but it is not a necessary one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

You do realize that simply turning on ones Powers is enough to change appearances and form completely right?

[tarragon]

Re: 6E Mess

 

some of us disagree with the notion that walking around normaly in a non powered form is not disadvantageous. Personaly I feel that if a character is non powered most of the time (Instead of just hiding his powers) that it is worth a point savings.

 

The way I see it if power activation is instant then even if you walk around without powers most of the time you are only at a disadvantage to sneak attacks. Force Field Man has the same problem and doesn't get any points for it. Even Always Tough Man takes 2x stun from total surprise, so your unpowered character doesn't take much extra damage even in a surprise situation.

 

So unless the campaign is very heavy with sneak attack on secret IDs then for me this just falls into the noise and isn't' worth anything to me.

[JmOz]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Let me say first of all: never said it was new (except when it was introduced in 5th)

 

Force Field man argument...the guy getting a -1/4 lim for non persistant (Or more likely a cost end lim?) sounds like he is getting a points savings for it...

 

not going to get into a big argument over it either. Like I said, I do feel it is worth a limitation, and IF the player chooses to take it, you can count on it coming up, if he does not take it then it will likely not come up or if it does it is because of a very good reason for the story.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is the way Enhanced Senses work, GA. Remember, the moment someone buys radar, they see something different. The character still smells the same, even though they shouldn't, because they're a big lump of granite, on fire, etc.

 

Otherwise, boom, SID blown. Sixty eight points is way too expensive compared to the cost of those complications. By a DOG. An ordinary dog owned by an ordinary seventy year old.

 

Peter Parker, Clark Kent and damn near every other costumed hero fears your DOG!

 

I think you are overthinking this though.

 

It's either a free side effect of power activation or, assuming that the heroic ID has different Complications, it's a Multiform.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Any Limitation - stock or custom - is worth pretty much what you let it be worth when you sit down to play.

 

OIAID is worth -1/4 and brings with it specific restrictions (must take a full Phase, has to have a way to stop it).

 

There's nothing that says you can't create a different, but equal value, Limitation with a different set of restrictions, and even name it something similar or the same.

 

Even something as simple as the need for a Secret Identity to be maintained is enough for a -1/4 Superheroic ID Limitation. You can't just turn on your Powers in public and use them - because turning on your powers makes it obvious that John Black, Playboy About Town is also GigaMan and the Character can't just stealthily use their eyebeams or whatever.

 

So, I agree with JmOz; sometimes just activating Powers from Secret to Super ID is enough in itself to warrant a -1/4 Limitation similar to OIAID.

And sometimes, it doesn't warrant any Limitation.

 

Personally, OIAID would have been a more useful Limitation to the system if it intead required the Character to take 1-2 conditions that cause it to be a Limitation instead of forcing a specific set on you. And then provided a list to choose from - Full Phase being one of the most common.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Instantly changing into your super form in less than a second and in a manner that no one can stop without completely disabling or killing you? We'd have to invent the -1/8 limitation for it

 

More seriously, it really comes down to a playstyle issue.

 

I think the potential for being killed by a sneak attack roughly balances out with the problems of being all super, all the time. I've never had a sniper kill the team mentalist, for example, despite how easy it would be to headshot a low DCV, low defense and unaware opponent. Similarly, we've never had the Wonder Woman/Power Girl equivalent maiming or killing normal mortals she was sleeping with every time she has an orgasm.

 

If something along those lines suits your play style, it might be worth some kind of Limitation or Complication (or perhaps a Talent or minor power, depending on your perspective I guess).

[Beast]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I'd go with grandfathering the character

just pay for what your character can do or not

and do not worry about the points

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I'd go with grandfathering the character

 

I'm not sure it's really grandfathering...

 

OIHID worked the same way in 5E as OIAID does in 6E

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

OIHID worked the same way in 5E as OIAID does in 6E

 

Um - Yes.

 

In fact the wording has not changed in any significant way.

 

One thing I'd like to point out in BOTH editions is the specific phrase "must take a Full Phase and/or . . ."

 

Meaning, the Full Phase aspect is not a strict hard and fast law of the land and the GM and Player can't alter it to fit concept better.

 

The change could take a standard Action but require a Phrase to be said. The change could take a Full Phase to put on a battlesuit. The change could simply require enough space to change in. There are a lot of options available to this Limitation, it's not nearly as closed off as people make it out to be.

 

There's nothing about the wording that says it absolutely has to take a Full Phase, and that can't be changed ever.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that in my game, I know it's worth the -1/4, because their disadvantages get used. If you're a normal, and have the RP happens during School, for instance, your teen character should get a -1/4 for only in Hero ID. If something happens, people have actually taken SID seriously and done things in their normal forms (Flee with other students, get other students out of the way) than transform. If a villain shows up in the middle of the lunchroom, and you can't change (remember, modern world. Security cameras everywhere), and without your powers, you're "Goes Squish Man", then that's worth a -1/4. If all you have to do is stealth and put your costume on, sure.

 

If your character is a journalist for a magazine that covers supers, and you publish unflattering material about someone, or they're offended by what you wrote, and they have a higher DEX than you, Sneak attack is irrelevant. You still can't change until your action, AND if you can't hide, your SID is fried like an egg if you do. If the villain goes before you, you suck an attack with no defenses.

 

The real issue here is the 68 point shapeshift. There's no reason for it to be 68 points. If that were more reasonable for this sort of effect, I probably wouldn't have the problem that I'm having. Fear of Dog is ridiculous.

 

Fear of Radar is even more ridiculous. If I have Radar and the character instant changes, he senses that this being is a 5'9" human unless the PC pays 68 points for Shapeshift.

 

And, of course, now we come to Multiform. I've ALWAYS hated this power. It is the bugbear of Champions. All the Only in Hero ID twinkiness is nothing compared to how broken this gets.

 

The x5 point multiplier turns even the lamest of normals into a skill-based superman when one of the forms is Normal.

 

These are the questions I ask when someone wants to take OIHID in my game.

 

1) Is the character ever in a position where this is a disadvantage?

 

2) Does the character do things that promote those positions, or will the character frequently/constantly be in an environment that promotes those situations?

 

3) If it is the case that something like this comes up about once every four sessions or less, then it's worth the -1/4 limitation. Otherwise, no bonus.

 

So, it looks like I have to revise my thinking. I don't like revising my thinking, because I despise how broken Multiform is. I already made it a special power that can't be frameworked. A multipower of multiforms and a VPP of Multiforms are just broken. I don't want a player to come to me with a briefcase and ask me to review his character EVER again.

 

Well, I'll review this yet again. It should still be a -1/4 limitation, especially since now everyone will not necessarily be at the same place in the DEX order.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The problem is that in my game' date=' I know it's worth the -1/4, because their disadvantages get used. If you're a normal, and have the RP happens during School, for instance, your teen character should get a -1/4 for only in Hero ID. If something happens, people have actually taken SID seriously and done things in their normal forms (Flee with other students, get other students out of the way) than transform. If a villain shows up in the middle of the lunchroom, and you can't change (remember, modern world. Security cameras everywhere), and without your powers, you're "Goes Squish Man", then that's worth a -1/4. If all you have to do is stealth and put your costume on, sure. [/quote']

 

Stupid question, but if Man-Spider is maintaining his secret ID of Parker Peters because his enemies would target his family if they knew who he really was, and his Hunteds would show up while he's sleeping, etc. etc. etc. , is he more disadvantaged if he can Shift into a non-powered form, or less disadvantaged since no one can "test" Parker Peters to see if he possesses the powers of Man-Spider?

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Frequently, in those situations, Spidey doesn't fight unless it's the Goblin. Several times, Peter Parker was like "Crap! I can't just beat the living daylights out of Doc Ock! He's dating my aunt!" Etc.

 

That's why the disad is a disad. Yes, he could fight, but he's had to make a show of not having any powers. That's Secret ID, not a physical transformation.

 

But if he WERE punched full force in the face by Doctor Octopus, he would take way less damage than a normal. The difference is, if this happens to Transformation man, transformation man is in the hospital or dead.

 

But the thing is, he paid points for the right to not be smeared. The guy who pays less points should be smeared. That's why the 68 point shapeshift is absurdly priced. It's actually more points, in many cases, than the points you save by buying your powers straight. A 6 slot 60 point multipower with OIHID and the Shapeshift saves 17. You get a 1/4 advantage on around 60 active points of defense, so that's 12. You're up to 29. 40 points of movement or so is 8. That's 37. Therefore, the shapeshift is overpriced, but your character still appears as a 5'9" human to radar and enhanced senses.

 

Fear the Dog.