Naanomi Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Ok... I am making the equivalent of a DnD style bard... you know the type, they sing songs and 'inspire' people to perform better. It isn't a magic effect perse, just an inspirational one that makes other people perform better. It will be written up as various Aids with various limitations and advantages... but one I am struggling over is 'invisible power effects'. On the one hand, I'm clearly doing something abnormal... I'm singing! However, the effects of the singing are not clear... it isn't clear that my singing is what is making that other guy fight harder. The effects visibility, too, I am confused with. While the song is probably 'directed' at someone... I say 'Go BoB Go!!'... but Bob doesn't glow or hulk-out or something, he just starts doing his thing better. What levels of invisibility would I need to make that work in the traditional inspirational bard song sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? I would do something like the following: 50 Sing A Song 40 active point example: Custom Power, Invisible to Sight Group, Source Only (+1/4) (50 Active Points) 5 END Sing, sing a song Sing out loud Sing out strong Sing of good things not bad Sing of happy not sad sing, sing a song Make it simple to last Your whole life long Don't worry that it's not Good enough for anyone Else to hear Just sing, sing a song La la la la la La la la la la la... Sing, sing a song Let the world sing along Sing of love there could be Sing for you and for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Sounds about right...I'd likely look at it and figure "+1/4 of Invis looks about right" and go with it... "Lie!Lie!Lie!Lie!, and fool the Stupid Ogre" Levels usable by others seem like a good build as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Ok... I am making the equivalent of a DnD style bard... you know the type' date=' they sing songs and 'inspire' people to perform better. It isn't a magic effect perse, just an inspirational one that makes other people perform better.[/quote'] I presume that you are talking about bards in 3.5E or earlier. (4E bardic magic is explicitly described as arcane.) Invisible Power Effect can be used to conceal the connection between the use of a Power and the effects of that Power (6E1 339). It's a +1/4 Advantage if the effects are inobvious (i.e. only other bards know what's going on), and +1/2 if they are invisible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? I presume that you are talking about bards in 3.5E or earlier. (4E bardic magic is explicitly described as arcane.) Yeah, that is what I said... DnD style, not MMO style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Hmmm.... is there any way to make this "singing" aspect fall under "Gestures?" It's just that "clearly doing something out of the ordinary" leads me in that direction.... Is it possible to have IPE and still take "Gestures?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Yeah, I suppose a low level of IPE so the power doesn't have to create a big blue glow or something might work. I'm not sure the inspirational song, speech, or whatever of a bard is completely inobvious to either friends or allies though, so I don't think you'd have to hide the effects from more than one sense group (e.g. sight). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Don't overlook the applicability of a Limited bonus to Presence. Inspiration of allies is one of the capabilities of a "Presence Attack." And as it isn't a Power directed at someone, there should be no visible effects other than the obvious fact your bard's singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? is there any way to make this "singing" aspect fall under "Gestures?" It's just that "clearly doing something out of the ordinary" leads me in that direction.... I'm planning on having Gestures, Incantations, a Focus (instrument), and maybe a skill roll. Aids, maybe healing, maybe a dispel for some negative effects... Skill levels and luck UOO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Don't overlook the applicability of a Limited bonus to Presence. Inspiration of allies is one of the capabilities of a "Presence Attack." And as it isn't a Power directed at someone' date=' there should be no visible effects other than the obvious fact your bard's singing.[/quote'] Are there any "hard and fast" rules on this, or is it just as the GM sees fit? I mean I have found the negative aspects, but it seems to me that the positive aspects are missing from the 'hard rules' I also admit that they my be in some proverbial way, "under my nose." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? How well known are bards and bardic magic in this game? If most people are aware that bards exist, what they can do, and how they can do it . . . you don't need any invisibility on the power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Is Bard Song invisible? You can't see it, I'll grant you (except in some of the computer games) but it is obvious (with a large and small 'O') where it is coming from - the sound will draw attention to the singer, causing people to look that way, and recognise instantly that the effect is coming from them....if the effect is obvious. So, question: you have a Bard who starts Fol-der-oling in a battle and all his mates suddenly fight harder. Will the enemies: 1. Automatically connect the singing to the increase in fighting ability? 2. Connect the increase in fighting ability to the song if they make an INT or PER roll? 3. Not connect at all unless they have specialist knowledge? AND Is it obvious that the song is being produced by the Bard? I would say that, generally, it will be obvious that the song is being produced by the bard and that, if it is non-magical inspiration, it will generally be obvious that the song is responsible for the effect. So Bard song is obvious, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? On the battlefield, yeah... pretty obvious that something strange is going on. In the tavern, when you are urging on your social maneuverings of your allies? Probably not so much. Some guy strumming the lute is more 'in-obvious' in that case. Lets assume, for argument, that few people or monsters are aware of the abilities of bards in this setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? This for 5E or 6E? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? 6e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Hmm. Well, I always make sure bards have a good set of Skills too. That might well be enough to help in social maneuverings outside of combat: using the music as the context to make Complimentary rolls for your friends, Skill vs. Skill rolls against your opponents, and even direct rolls to try to affect mood (e.g. Persuasion to rile somebody up). Sometimes Skills are as good as Powers, or even better (that's why I've never quite liked the attitude of "Powers as super-skills"; sometimes nothing substitutes for a good Skill use, or should). Though Mental Powers could work well in that context also, and wouldn't necessarily need the benefit of IPE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Does the recipient of the bard's magic have to "glow or hulk out" just because the bard's song isn't Invisible? I don't have 6E, but is it not still allowed for the Powers to be detectable by other Sense Groups than Sight? Hearing is already one; Mental could be another. If the capacity to Detect Magic is common in your campaign, that could be a third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Something else to consider as well. Aid in 5er was 0 END by default. As a result it is not visible to 3 sense groups (just like Armor & Damage Resistance) Has this changed significantly in 6e? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? adjustment powers (including AID, which now costs END in any case) are listed as visible powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? adjustment powers (including AID' date=' which now costs END in any case) are listed as visible powers.[/quote'] Ah... Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Since this is for 6E that makes the answer easy, IMO; I would move the Powers to the Inobvious Level of perceivability. Someone in the know will know what to look for, most people will not. For example in a tavern with a Bard strumming most people will just note a Bard strumming in the corner, someone looking specifically for his effects will notice them - possibly with a Perception Roll required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? adjustment powers (including AID' date=' which now costs END in any case) are listed as visible powers.[/quote'] Specifically they are listed as Obvious, which means in 6E two sense groups, and one must be Sight unless the GM agrees otherwise (in a campaign with lots of Magic then Mystic/Magic and Hearing could be just as appropriate). If the two groups are Magic and Hearing, and the GM agrees, then you'd have to either know the song did something or have some Magic "Sight" of some nature, which may be found in enough people to qualify as a far traid for Normal Sight Group. Or, see my post above about Inobvious being a good candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? I think Inobvious will do well. Hearing and maybe Mental Sense groups will point it out, but not enough people can tell the difference between normal music and 'bard song' to leave it at obvious. That covers my end, what about the effects? Are they also inobvious then? or should they be fully invisible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? Also Inobvious, I would think. I'm not sure they worried about that in DnD at all, so your guess is as good as anyones (i.e. - make it fit the campaign instead of the source). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Re: How invisible is Bard Song? I think you can build them as is, and have a stirring, martial version that is quite obvious to everyone listening (doesn't have to be martial - could be any 'feeling' or 'emotion', or whatever - in the tavern you sing a song that bigs-up your mate, it is obvious what is happening - might be interesting to build with side effects if it is a 'love' song - one gender group reacts positively, the other gender group negatively...), but then you could also have a subtler version that affects people without them knowing - an inobvious version...less powerful, prehaps, but then sometimes more useful if the subject would not approaciate such manipulation. So what I'm saying is, you have to decide then build what you want - there is no 'right' answer. Different songs could easily be built in different ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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