Gripe about Champions Battlegrounds!

[championsguru]

I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

 

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

 

If you already have Champions, Champions Universe and CKC I would recommend the book. The first adventure is very smartly written and spaced out (only one I've read so far). If the others are half as smart as the first it is well worth it. I love modules that give you play by play instead of just a loose outline.

 

Just ticks me off,

 

Da Guru

[keithcurtis]

Re: Gripe about Champions Battlegrounds!

 

Originally posted by championsguru

I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

 

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

 

Just ticks me off,

 

Da Guru

 

This has been voiced elsewhere, championsguru. It is a trade-off between space for adventures and space for characters. The back of the product clearly states that the other books are necessary. The complaint is akin to complaining you can't use a D&D module because it uses monsters from the Monster Manual and spells from the Player's Handbook.

If DoJ had re-published the characters in C:B, then you would have just as many fans howling that they were being forced to pay for a book that had material they had already bought. It's a no-win scenario and this is the route DoJ has taken.

BTW, the back of the book lists CU and CKC. Which characters were in Champions?

 

Keith "Mr. Explainy" Curtis

[Magmarock]

No gripes here!

 

I have already ran my group through the first scenario in Battlegrounds and it was a success. My only regret is that I wasn't prepared to jump right into the second scenario, as our small group finished the first one rather quickly. (Yes I understand that the first two are rather short... I look forward to the finale!)

 

It didn't bother me that I needed the other books. I carry all my CHAMPS stuff together anyway. A few post-it notes to mark the pages and I'm good to go!.

 

By the way, I REALLY loved the premade speed charts! What a great idea! Very convenient!

 

Mags

 

PS. I hope more such adventures are forthcoming!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No gripes here!

 

Originally posted by Magmarock

By the way, I REALLY loved the premade speed charts! What a great idea! Very convenient!

 

sigh...YMMV. I HATE the wasted paper for those &$W* premade Speed charts. Use the paper to summarize the characters in the book so it would be semi-useful. I resent even having those in ebooks!

 

Obviously, however, someone likes them.

[Polaris]

Championsguru,

 

I think you raise a very good point, but it is a good idea to check the book to see if it says any other books are necessary.

 

As a word of advice, you can always make up some characters to use in the place of the characters used in the adventures. I know it is not ideal, and some might think if they are going to make up the characters, they might as well make the adventure, but it is at least a fix so you can run the adventure ideas.

 

Polaris

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Polaris

Championsguru,

 

I think you raise a very good point, but it is a good idea to check the book to see if it says any other books are necessary.

 

Polaris

 

I've only seen the book once, so I really can't say anything about it. But I have a few questions. Is there anything on the front that indicates its an adventure? Is the requirement for the other books easily visible on the back, or is it placed in a corner somewhere? I didn't look closer at it beacuse I didn't know what it was (and was spending $200 on the other books anyway). Personally, I'd rather see "module" or "adventure" on the front where it is visible in the rack (of course, differeent stores might put them on a shelf so only the spine is visible).

 

As for the monster manual/PHB tie in with D&D/D20 modules, there is a difference between a monster and an individual character. If the game used the bestiary for a common beast that's one thing (although not really - its pretty well understood that for any d20/D&D game, all three basic books are required for play - for Hero, only FRED is really a "required" book). An ogre is an ogre is an ogre - say ogre to a D&D player and he knows what it is, same with a troll. They are basically generic, non-individual characters that can be used in multiple settings. Most superheroes are not generic - they're individuals (is there a tribe of gronds somewhere?). Different Genre's have different rules. That said, I'm assuming the CK is the Villains Manual for the champions universe. So does that mean that I need to buy that if I want to use any published module? And if the viper book comes out, will there be villains in there that are going to be in future modules, so I'll be required to buy those as well to have stats for them without having to make them up and try to balance everything to the adventure as it was written? Whew - that's a mouthful. Does anybody get what I'm trying to say?

[AlHazred]

How to reply... how to reply....?

 

The information needed to place an Ogre in a D&D module is listed in the Monster Manual. The fact that it's a monster doesn't preclude the need for statistics. You can place an "Ogre" that you designed yourself into the module, but it'll be a different adventure than one the author intended, albeit mildly.

 

There's enough information in Champions Battlegrounds to construct your own individual villains. It'll be a different adventure, but still quite playable, since the most important part of it is plot, character interaction, and heroics.

 

As the eminent "Mr Explainy" explained, it's clearly listed on the back that you need Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks to fully use the book.

 

As far as being labeled as an "adventure", it's true that the front of it says "a sourcebook for Champions." However, the first line on the back (under the title "Superheroic Adventure!") is "Champions Battlegrounds is a collection of five adventures for Champions..." So, if a buyer picked it up without knowing it was an adventure, I'd assume he was like my, and just bought all Hero stuff that comes out. In which case it shouldn't be a problem...

 

As far as prerequisite products to use Hero stuff, I believe Steve has said on the boards (as Keith also mentioned) that they don't plan on repeating writeups (a decision I approve of). That being said, if a module title was something like Viper Battlegrounds, I'd assume that having the VIPER book was required to make full use of it. However, Hero is completely customizable; making the bad guys myself guarantees that they'll surprise all my players...

[Monolith]

It does not bother me that you need characters from other books to easily play the adventures in Champions: Battleground because, as others have stated in two different threads, most RPG adventures for other systems do this as well.

 

It would also not have bothered me if DOJ had reprinted that stat breakdowns for the villains in question and just left out the origins (but then I could still see people complaining that they do not know the motivations of the villains in question!).

 

My personal preference, however, is that adventures should use completely original villains within them. That way there is an added incentive for gamers to want to buy the adventure. The main reason I have purchased 90% of the Champions modules and source books published in the past was to see the new characters listed in the books. When you only use pre-existing characters you remove that curiosity factor from people's purchasing decisions.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by badger3k

I've only seen the book once, so I really can't say anything about it. But I have a few questions. Is there anything on the front that indicates its an adventure? Is the requirement for the other books easily visible on the back, or is it placed in a corner somewhere? I didn't look closer at it beacuse I didn't know what it was (and was spending $200 on the other books anyway). Personally, I'd rather see "module" or "adventure" on the front where it is visible in the rack (of course, differeent stores might put them on a shelf so only the spine is visible).

Front cover: A sourcebook for CHAMPIONS

 

Back cover (bottom): Uses characterers from Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks

[badger3k]

Originally posted by AlHazred

How to reply... how to reply....?

 

The information needed to place an Ogre in a D&D module is listed in the Monster Manual. The fact that it's a monster doesn't preclude the need for statistics. You can place an "Ogre" that you designed yourself into the module, but it'll be a different adventure than one the author intended, albeit mildly.

 

There's enough information in Champions Battlegrounds to construct your own individual villains. It'll be a different adventure, but still quite playable, since the most important part of it is plot, character interaction, and heroics.

 

As the eminent "Mr Explainy" explained, it's clearly listed on the back that you need Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks to fully use the book.

 

As far as being labeled as an "adventure", it's true that the front of it says "a sourcebook for Champions." However, the first line on the back (under the title "Superheroic Adventure!") is "Champions Battlegrounds is a collection of five adventures for Champions..." So, if a buyer picked it up without knowing it was an adventure, I'd assume he was like my, and just bought all Hero stuff that comes out. In which case it shouldn't be a problem...

 

As far as prerequisite products to use Hero stuff, I believe Steve has said on the boards (as Keith also mentioned) that they don't plan on repeating writeups (a decision I approve of). That being said, if a module title was something like Viper Battlegrounds, I'd assume that having the VIPER book was required to make full use of it. However, Hero is completely customizable; making the bad guys myself guarantees that they'll surprise all my players...

 

I'd argue the ogre point just to do it, but appreciate the info - Actually I will reply to that - having a hard time trying to articulate my ideas. The D&D game is designed to be used with the three basic books. As long as I have those, I can use virtually any module or adventure written, mainly because I haven't seen one that hasn't at least had a stat block on the creatures (I am not a big module buyer anyway, so maybe someone else has had different experiences). Of course, a stat block on a monster is only a few lines and you get a pretty good idea of what it is/what it can do. With the hero system that is impossible, unless you use really small writing. Most monsters are also not major villains - they may be guards, random encounters, or whatever. The big guys are usually written up in the module, since they are unique and therefore not in a generic book. The game and genre needs that. In champions that would be like having no stats for the thugs or lower level npcs (the "dungeon dressing" monsters), but stating the big guys - the major villains. Without that would be like going on a quest, defeating hordes of monsters, to get to the big bad guy, then finding out I need to buy yet another book, or else just make up my own. Its easier in D&D because I don't have to balance things out (it takes a minute or two for a standard D&D monster - can anyone make a champions character in that time - complete from start to finish?). It just adds more work to prep the adventure than reading it and deciding on strategies.

 

Obviously, reading the back is a good idea no matter what, but I've bought stuff before that looked cool, then found out I didn't have everything that was needed.

 

To me, if I want to run a champions campaign, in the official universe, all I should need is FRED, probably champions as the genre book, and Champions universe as the setting/world book. I don't expect to need any more books. If I never use UNTIL or VIPER, why buy the book. I understand that it may say it on the cover. It's just that the lack of stats, for whatever reason they give, is just a poor call (IMO). The same way if I'm looking for other modules - if it says a book I don't have is required, then I'll probably pass on it. Why pay X for the adventure and Y for the other books, when I might as well make up my own adventure for nothing more than what I spent originally. But that's just my thoughts.

[Agent X]

Is there a rule that you have to like a Champions product or can't criticize its design because it gives you "fair warning" as to what it is required for play?

 

I believe this complaint is a complaint about the design of the book, not an accusation of deceptive advertising. I share that complaint. I don't want to have to cross-reference as I'm reading adventure modules. It is inconvenient to me. I think Monolith has a good point. I am much more likely to pick up an adventure with new villains in it. To me, it's a double bonus.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Agent X

Is there a rule that you have to like a Champions product or can't criticize its design because it gives you "fair warning" as to what it is required for play?

Of course not. No one has denied anyone the right to complain. Everyone is responding (politely) with their take on the situation.

I believe this complaint is a complaint about the design of the book, not an accusation of deceptive advertising.

 

 

When I read the first post my interpretation was that he was saying exactly the opposite. Championsguru made some very nice comments about the writing and layout. It seemed to me he felt that he had bought the book without the understanding that other books would be required.

 

I share that complaint. I don't want to have to cross-reference as I'm reading adventure modules. It is inconvenient to me. I think Monolith has a good point. I am much more likely to pick up an adventure with new villains in it. To me, it's a double bonus.

 

True point there. New villains are cool. OTOH, some folks like to find a way to use the villains they have already purchased and really like the feeling that the universe they are using is organic and alive. Myself, I have run a couple of modules, but I have always replaced the characters with ones of my own creation. I have never used anyone else's characters. I think I stand by my previous assessment that no matter what DoJ had done, they could not make everyone happy.

 

Here is a thought: CB was written by five different authors. Perhaps DoJ requested that the authors use the existing characters to ensure a consistent look-and-feel across the adventures.

 

Keith "my 2¢" Curtis

[Agent X]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Of course not. No one has denied anyone the right to complain. Everyone is responding (politely) with their take on the situation.

 

When I read the first post my interpretation was that he was saying exactly the opposite. Championsguru made some very nice comments about the writing and layout. It seemed to me he felt that he had bought the book without the understanding that other books would be required.

 

 

True point there. New villains are cool. OTOH, some folks like to find a way to use the villains they have already purchased and really like the feeling that the universe they are using is organic and alive. Myself, I have run a couple of modules, but I have always replaced the characters with ones of my own creation. I have never used anyone else's characters. I think I stand by my previous assessment that no matter what DoJ had done, they could not make everyone happy.

 

Here is a thought: CB was written by five different authors. Perhaps DoJ requested that the authors use the existing characters to ensure a consistent look-and-feel across the adventures.

 

Keith "my 2¢" Curtis

Perhaps they would make me happier if they had one person write a series of adventures with new characters. They could even write in thoughts on how to replace the new characters with "classic" characters if people are adamant about using CKC and CU villains in their adventures.

[megaplayboy]

I know this is a crazy thought, but I would've bought the produce, even paid as much as 30-40 bucks for it...

 

IF THEY HAD INCLUDED ACTUAL PULL OUT MAPS AND COUNTERS IN IT!

 

Sheesh. You're expecting a GM to draw that mall map onto a vinyl battlemat?!?

I know costy was probably the reason for doing it that way, but when the product was first described to me, I thought it would have pull out maps in it.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

I know this is a crazy thought, but I would've bought the produce, even paid as much as 30-40 bucks for it...

 

IF THEY HAD INCLUDED ACTUAL PULL OUT MAPS AND COUNTERS IN IT!

 

Sheesh. You're expecting a GM to draw that mall map onto a vinyl battlemat?!?

I know costy was probably the reason for doing it that way, but when the product was first described to me, I thought it would have pull out maps in it.

I thought that was what they were talking about when they sounded so excited about the adventure having maps. I don't get that excited about regular old maps on regular sized pages. I sort of think that's a given.

[Hugh Neilson]

You're not going to solve this one. If you reprint the villains, you'll have posts complaining that I bought the CKC book - why should I have to pay for 10-20 pages that reprints material I already have.

 

If you use brand-new villains, you'll get complaints that the CU already has lots of villains - use the ones we already have and free up that 10-20 pages for more story or less price. Geez, guys, I paid for CKC - make it worth something to me.

 

I think it would have been reasonable to include a brief description of the characters so the GM without the books could create similar characters of his own. Who knows? Maybe he's ensnared by the brief decisions and decides CKC is a worthwhile purchase. But I'd clip those stupid speed charts to make the space, and some posters love those.

 

There is no way to please everyone.

 

Any HERO officials following these threads? Any thoughts how future books will be written? Maybe make a "character package" available from the web store containing just the characters used in Battlegrounds, and priced lower than CKC, but more than the % of CKC reprinted?

 

Then we can gripe about pdf's and download problems too...

 

OK, guys, I bought CB. I've scanned (not read) it. I have CKC, etc. I'm HAPPY with the decision to use existing villains rather than create new ones that aren't essential. I'm happy you didn't make me pay for reprinted characters. I don't like the preprinted SPD charts, but others seem to, so its a sacrifice I can easily live with. Thanks for a great product, and I look forward to the next one!

[championsguru]

I love when we get into these kind of discussions.

 

They didn't have to put a full page for each villain in the book, maybe a group pick of the villains and each one in a small block stat. That way it would take maybe a page and a half to display a half page pick of the baddies and the stats for up to four or five on the other page.

 

If the GM wants to know more about the villains background, motivation, et al, he/she can go to the book of origin to get more info.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Gripe about Champions Battlegrounds!

 

Originally posted by championsguru

I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

 

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

 

If you already have Champions, Champions Universe and CKC I would recommend the book. The first adventure is very smartly written and spaced out (only one I've read so far). If the others are half as smart as the first it is well worth it. I love modules that give you play by play instead of just a loose outline.

 

Just ticks me off,

 

Da Guru

 

 

Okay, let me get this straight. You want to run Battlegrounds, a Champions adventure but you don't own the books already. So when you play Champions, what do you do? Do you use your own characters? Well use them for Battlegrounds. They give you the master villian of the program and he basically uses other villains to do his dirtywork. So if you don't have the books that they are in use your own.

 

Why does this tick you off?

[Steve Long]

Any HERO officials following these threads? Any thoughts how future books will be written?

 

Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

 

Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

 

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

 

2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or ( waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

 

The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. )

 

As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

 

While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Steve Long

Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

 

Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

 

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

 

2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or ( waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

 

The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. )

 

As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

 

While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company.

I just wonder how many people in the past didn't buy published scenarios because they didn't use existing characters. I'm pretty sure that many of the scenarios you could write with the characters in CKC I wouldn't touch. Some of those characters hold 0 interest for me. Some of those characters I prefer in their 4th Edition incarnation. Some of those characters I will have used in my campaigns in such a way as your scenarios will prove moot.

 

The funny thing about not publishing monster stats - In those systems the monsters are fairly uncomplicated and not unique. I don't play 3E or 3.5E but when I played AD&D if an adventure had Iuz in it, they didn't assume you had the World of Greyhawk Boxed Setting with his stats in the back. Champions lacks standard, generic monsters as far as I can tell. The villains and heroes are unique.

 

Oh well, I don't know why I bother to type. I've tried to bring up some points about Hero Designer in the past and basically been told to like it or lump it by Hero Staff, in a pretty condescending manner too.

 

This is just one of a number of approaches that bug me: the unified world and the "magic as source of everything super" for all Hero genres (don't like this), the changes to instant change and damage shield and regeneration (don't like these), a philosophy too centered on plumbing the depths of game mechanics as opposed to role playing/playability (don't like this - which produced the changes in the aformentioned rules), Hero Designer's speed and rigidity (don't like this), and the loss of many cool characters from earlier editions of Champions (don't like this but I don't think there was much of a choice on this one for DOJ).

 

I do like many of the improvements made in FRED. I do like the layout of the books. What seems to be lacking in the approach of this company is enough brains sharing ideas and compromising. I'm not impressed with an approach that takes a narrow view. a view limited by a small number of creators. It seems that things are just a bit too close-knit in Hero Land and I don't get the impression that the views of many individuals beyond a small group are seriously considered. Seems to be working fairly well so far but I wonder if this approach will continue to work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Steve Long

Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

 

I rather suspected someone would be - especially a thread on what people do or don't like about a product! You guys spend a LOT of time providing free advice on these web boards which, in my view, shows anyone who thinks Hero doesn't care about their customers is way off base. Try going to the WOTC site and asking a rules question - I've never seen a question take half a day to get an answer!

 

[And you'd need about 20 full time people to follow every thread...thanks for taking the time to post such a complete and well reasoned response.]

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

 

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

 

For me, I'm happy with that. Give me a good, solid usable product (and I can't think of a time Hero has failed to do so) and don't fill it up with bells and whistles. Give me a 96 page scenario book in B & W on plain paper over a 32 page book on colour glossies EVERY TIME!

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or ( waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

 

Thank you for that. The failure to use established Hero characters has been a key failing in prior incarnations of the game, at least in my opinion. Based on your comments below, I'm not alone in that. My experience is that characters key to the adventure tend to be brand new (maybe the reason SoB got webbook and Battlegrounds got paper treatment?), and you can replace the "bit players" from other sources.

 

Mind you, I buy up supplements for other games for the scenarios and build my own characters based on theirs, or insert characters I already use. My campaign includes Villains and Vigalantes, every Champions edition, Golden Heroes and who knows what else.

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. )

 

Let's also remember that a lot of D&D material (the touted comparison) tells you you "need" or "should have" other products to get full use. eg. if you don't have the FR Setting book, how useful are FR Supplements or Scenarios?

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

 

It's also not like they need to be identical. Critical abilities are set out by "here's what the villains will do" text. It really doesn't matter if the villain has an AP attack unless the scenario relies on it being used for something. If it does, that use and reliance will be obvious from the scenario book.

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company.

 

"If you try to make everybody happy, no one will like it."

 

Would I make all the same decisions Steve does? Probably not. Will there still be food on my table if Hero folds? Yes. Steve's got to make the best decisions for Hero as a whole. he can't tailor make each product for my personal preferences - unless I volunteer to pay all the Hero expenses, a decent salary for him, and a return on the investment in the company. I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want!

 

The other approach, I suppose, is to use all-new characters and never publish villains books. That's also not a great solution, IMO. As I see it, Hero has taken the compromise approach. If you prefer to make your own scenarios, buy the villains books and use them in your scenarios. If you prefer to make your own characters, buy the scenario books and use your characters. If you like to do it all yourself, buy the sourcebooks and rulebooks only.

 

I'm amused by comments like "well, I only buy scenarios for the villains so I feel ripped off by these scenarios". Hero could say "Great - rather than publish a villains book with 100 characters, we'll publish 10 scenario books with 10 characters each and make you pay 10x as much for what you want." To me, that WOULD abuse the customers. Like the basics of the Hero system itself, the various supplements provide the building blocks, and we each choose which ones we want to use and how.

 

It's a lot easier to complain about the minor items than to create the whole picture. In my opinion, Hero produces, bar none, the best RPG material on the market.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I rather suspected someone would be - especially a thread on what people do or don't like about a product! You guys spend a LOT of time providing free advice on these web boards which, in my view, shows anyone who thinks Hero doesn't care about their customers is way off base. Try going to the WOTC site and asking a rules question - I've never seen a question take half a day to get an answer!

 

[And you'd need about 20 full time people to follow every thread...thanks for taking the time to post such a complete and well reasoned response.]

 

 

 

For me, I'm happy with that. Give me a good, solid usable product (and I can't think of a time Hero has failed to do so) and don't fill it up with bells and whistles. Give me a 96 page scenario book in B & W on plain paper over a 32 page book on colour glossies EVERY TIME!

 

 

 

Thank you for that. The failure to use established Hero characters has been a key failing in prior incarnations of the game, at least in my opinion. Based on your comments below, I'm not alone in that. My experience is that characters key to the adventure tend to be brand new (maybe the reason SoB got webbook and Battlegrounds got paper treatment?), and you can replace the "bit players" from other sources.

 

Mind you, I buy up supplements for other games for the scenarios and build my own characters based on theirs, or insert characters I already use. My campaign includes Villains and Vigalantes, every Champions edition, Golden Heroes and who knows what else.

 

 

 

Let's also remember that a lot of D&D material (the touted comparison) tells you you "need" or "should have" other products to get full use. eg. if you don't have the FR Setting book, how useful are FR Supplements or Scenarios?

 

 

 

It's also not like they need to be identical. Critical abilities are set out by "here's what the villains will do" text. It really doesn't matter if the villain has an AP attack unless the scenario relies on it being used for something. If it does, that use and reliance will be obvious from the scenario book.

 

 

 

"If you try to make everybody happy, no one will like it."

 

Would I make all the same decisions Steve does? Probably not. Will there still be food on my table if Hero folds? Yes. Steve's got to make the best decisions for Hero as a whole. he can't tailor make each product for my personal preferences - unless I volunteer to pay all the Hero expenses, a decent salary for him, and a return on the investment in the company. I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want!

 

The other approach, I suppose, is to use all-new characters and never publish villains books. That's also not a great solution, IMO. As I see it, Hero has taken the compromise approach. If you prefer to make your own scenarios, buy the villains books and use them in your scenarios. If you prefer to make your own characters, buy the scenario books and use your characters. If you like to do it all yourself, buy the sourcebooks and rulebooks only.

 

I'm amused by comments like "well, I only buy scenarios for the villains so I feel ripped off by these scenarios". Hero could say "Great - rather than publish a villains book with 100 characters, we'll publish 10 scenario books with 10 characters each and make you pay 10x as much for what you want." To me, that WOULD abuse the customers. Like the basics of the Hero system itself, the various supplements provide the building blocks, and we each choose which ones we want to use and how.

 

It's a lot easier to complain about the minor items than to create the whole picture. In my opinion, Hero produces, bar none, the best RPG material on the market.

You are assuming that this is an either/or situation and that there is no room for compromise. That seems to be the DOJ way of looking at it too. I think there is room for compromise.

[Nato]

*

[Steve Long]

I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want!

 

Generally speaking, I'd say that's probably a true statement -- though they'd have to pay in advance, no refund, and promise not to sue if Events Beyond Our Control prevented me from writing it.

 

It would probably be easier if they just tried to invest in the company.

[Magmarock]

Battlegrounds IS a source book!

 

First of all, I'd like to say that I think Battlegrounds is written just fine. I don't see any way to improve on the format. I hope to see more such "grouped modules" in the future!

 

Second, I would like to point out that Battlegrounds is a wondeful source book. Every map, especially the mall and park maps from the first two adventures, can be used over and over again. Each area has a lot going on, and I loved the way each shop in the mall was fleshed out and the people with personalities and agendas that can be reused. I plan on incorporating the mall into several adventures, not just for fights, but as a place where the PCs can go to meet people, get information, etc. The current campaign we are playing is in MC, but this mall can fit any city campaign.

 

Mags