Agent X Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 I'm not criticizing the format as far as the meat and bones of the adventure. I'm saying I like new characters and mistook the hype about maps to mean there was a possibility of miniatures-ready maps. I'm not offended that they didn't have those sorts of maps. I just don't know why then went on and on about the maps. My complaint that I like new characters still stands - and I do think it is proper to have at least a summary of all the characters involved in an adventure in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 My pardon By format, I wasn't referring only to the layout... I was referring to the entire product, including content. Maybe a free PDF download of such info (villain stat blocks and such) can be offered in addition to the hard copy of an adventure. That way, everyone is happy- people aren't forced to pay for the same material they already own, and those who want the extras can download it and print it out. Sounds like a good compromise to me. There can be a code or something for the download, maybe, so you'd need to buy the book before you can get the stat blocks. Or something like that. Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 I didn't know that 2-4 pages of content was so precious that we should subject everyone to having to thumb through several books to use a scenario. These PDF solutions assume everyone who games has the ability or inclination to use computers and printers to support their gaming. Maybe I've been around too long but I am used to having scenarios I buy have the character stats of the characters in the scenario. It's not a matter of me having to buy CKC, CU, or Champions Genre Book - I have bought all those books. It is a matter of utility. The scenario, relying on me to look up stats in another book, has just added unnecessary complexity to me actually running the game. It's interesting that so many are bringing up options for players suggesting essentially this, "You could do this or do that to get around the problem." The issue is that buying a scenario is not merely a method of inspiration but also a method of avoiding perspiration. If I am compelled to perform enough paperwork because the scenario cannot stand on its own then there is no reason to buy the thing. It's supposed to make my job as a GM easier and hopefully that includes the weight in my bag lighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Although no one seems to have taken offense at my tone. It was a little edgy for me. So I apologize for being the least polite person on this thread. I haven't purchased it but after reading everything I will be doing so tonight, THANKS pen and paper.com! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 I must say, with all due respect, that this thread sounds like other threads that have come out every time DoJ releases a new book: some people really like parts of the book, while other people really dislike parts of it. Often the radical difference of opinion is over the same parts. In the case of Champions Battlegrounds, we obviously have a disagreement between people who want new characters included and those who want existing characters, and between people who want the stats for the characters included in the book and those who don't. In giving us a book with scenarios designed around previously published characters, but which don't include them or require them, I'm not sure how much farther the company could have compromised without leaning more toward one side or the other in the dispute. I'll give Hero Games credit for putting out a scenario book when past experience would indicate that scenario books aren't profitable. I'll also give them credit for trying some things differently with this book, in the hope that it will sell better than its predecessors. I guess it's now up to the marketplace to decide whether they got it right or not; that's as close to an objective determination as we're likely to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long Generally speaking, I'd say that's probably a true statement -- though they'd have to pay in advance, no refund, and promise not to sue if Events Beyond Our Control prevented me from writing it. It would probably be easier if they just tried to invest in the company. That's another option - if you don't like what Hero is doing, buy the present owners out and run it your way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Maybe I've been around too long but I am used to having scenarios I buy have the character stats of the characters in the scenario. It's not a matter of me having to buy CKC, CU, or Champions Genre Book - I have bought all those books. It is a matter of utility. The scenario, relying on me to look up stats in another book, has just added unnecessary complexity to me actually running the game. It's interesting that so many are bringing up options for players suggesting essentially this, "You could do this or do that to get around the problem." The issue is that buying a scenario is not merely a method of inspiration but also a method of avoiding perspiration. If I am compelled to perform enough paperwork because the scenario cannot stand on its own then there is no reason to buy the thing. It's supposed to make my job as a GM easier and hopefully that includes the weight in my bag lighter. I always have separate (looseleaf) character w/u's anyway, first because I tinker with them and second because I hate having to flip through the book looking for them. Especially if there are two on opposite pages involved in the same fight. That means the weight issue means nothing to me. That's one reason my views may differ from others' views on this matter. I would not mind a "stat summary" in the book to provide some basics of the characters presented, but I know I would end up fleshing the characters out anyway. Hero's not a system for cardboard cut-out opponents, so they need some fleshing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 LL, Well said, but I think you also miss one other point: While some people would be happier with X (let us say the pages of CKC and CU needed for the adventure being reprinted) they would be satisfied to have Y (A two sentence description of the character). Agent X feels that certain things could be better, and overall I agree with his feelings on all the points above. I do SUSPECT that his comment about how an employee of Hero Games treated him has to do with how a certain person who DOES NOT work for Hero, but who many think does tends to treat negative feedback on his pet project, but I won't go there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Just picked up the book. Per usual, looks very well done. Nice maps, could do without the combat record sheets. I'd prefer a summary that presents the same info that could fit on one page. Perhaps I'll have more feedback after a full reading. Spoiler Though the master villian needs a bit of work. "Not the Face!" comes to mind... For only a 5 pnt disad, I think I'd just reduce the defenses as opposed to "none of his defenses apply to hit location 4" Probably drop the damage reduction and 1/2 his def. After all, he still has a steel skull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Agent X, I would agree that sometimes people have an overly "group think" view of crticism (or the "d20 is worse" defense... which, is not really a reason to not improve Hero, just because d20 is not better). People in General, I think Steve's post answering the criticism was very respectful and presented his reasoning for the decisions made. I don't expect anyone will agree with all the decisions he makes, but I do appreciate when he does explain so that we can know that he does listen, just doesn't always agree. I am with those that would pay quite a bit extra for a poster map. I would have bought TE for 10 dollars more if it had a poster map of the galaxy... and been glad to do it. I may be representative of a lot of customers, I may be one of a small handful. DOJ made their decision that it wasn't worth it to them to do it for the extra money (they clearly felt it would not make enough 'extra' money to pay for the map inserts). I share others' disappointment in that decision, but I look at the choice from the point of view of a customer/gamer, not from a business perspective (which is how Steve and Darren have to look at the choices). I don't know if this could even be considered, but would it be viable to offer poster maps in the online store (as a stand alone... not having to pay for it being an insert)?? Just a thought... Polaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 ... Great idea, Polaris! If DoJ can offer add ons for Hero Designer, why not PDF add ons for modules? Even though I don't play Star hero, I can see where a star chart would come in handy. (Not sure if you guys run ship to ship fights ala Star Fleet Battles or Babylon 5, but it would be neat, I think) I also like the idea of just photocopying the villans needed for a partucular adventure and slipping them in the module where needed. Come to think of it... they already have available the Hero Designer add ons with the villains in PDF format. Very easy to print out whichever villain you need and use it that way. Maybe that will help? Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 my suggestion on the maps is to create PDFs on site that contain the maps in page by page form(i.e., A1 through A4, A through C, print out and connect as directed to make a full map). Less than perfect, but better than a tiny map in a book that would take an hour to redraw on a battlemat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Cat Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I'm not sure how well the Heroclix map sets are selling, but I do know that I've considered purchasing them. The square tiling instead of hex is not a problem for me. But if Hero came out with hex maps in that format... I wonder what the response would be... Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger3k Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Originally posted by Polaris Agent X, I would agree that sometimes people have an overly "group think" view of crticism (or the "d20 is worse" defense... which, is not really a reason to not improve Hero, just because d20 is not better). People in General, I think Steve's post answering the criticism was very respectful and presented his reasoning for the decisions made. I don't expect anyone will agree with all the decisions he makes, but I do appreciate when he does explain so that we can know that he does listen, just doesn't always agree. I am with those that would pay quite a bit extra for a poster map. I would have bought TE for 10 dollars more if it had a poster map of the galaxy... and been glad to do it. I may be representative of a lot of customers, I may be one of a small handful. DOJ made their decision that it wasn't worth it to them to do it for the extra money (they clearly felt it would not make enough 'extra' money to pay for the map inserts). I share others' disappointment in that decision, but I look at the choice from the point of view of a customer/gamer, not from a business perspective (which is how Steve and Darren have to look at the choices). I don't know if this could even be considered, but would it be viable to offer poster maps in the online store (as a stand alone... not having to pay for it being an insert)?? Just a thought... Polaris I already gave my opinions so I wont repeat them on the basic subject. As for the maps on pdfs, villain write ups, et al: I'm not sure how everything is stored at DOJ, but making the pdfs for distribution might also be both time- and money-consuming (a possibility), so offering them for free might not be an economically viable option either. Whether it would be worth it for a little money is a possibility, but I can't comment to much on that either. It might be an option if its low cost and keeps good will up, but I'd agree that some way of coding it would be needed (say, a particular word from somewhere in the book, so they would need the book to uncode the downloads), otherwise they would be essentially giving their work away for free (why by CK if you can get the villains piecemeal). Oh well - one thing I can comment on is what I've done in the past. It is time consuming (and paper/ink too) - I'll scan the maps I need and blow them up as necesssary. Not the most elegant solution, but it can work. Just an idea for the interim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlHazred Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I came up with Polaris' very idea while catching up on this thread. I think if DOJ offered to sell poster-sized maps (in color) in .pdf format in the on-line store (I'm talking single-digit dollars, here), I'd buy them. Now, I buy all the Hero stuff anyway, but I know several people who have often said you can't get good modern terrain, and a "shopping mall" map or a "city park" map would definitely sell to more than just the people like me. It wouldn't be too hard for most of us to go to Kinko's and pay for a nice poster print-out. All told, I like the direction taken with Champions Battlegrounds, and I was one of the people who said that the plot seeds were good enough. Should be expect to see a Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds and Star Hero Battlegrounds as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcorp Man Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Champions Battleground is the first Champions product ever that I put back and did not buy, for a lot of the reasons already mentioned, and it's what also spured me to have my Local Store remove Hero from my "must have," list that's been there for almost 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchdog Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 The players is my campaign frequent this board on occasion, so I don't want to say too much about the content of Battlegrounds. But I will mention a couple of things, so SPOILER ALERT, and all that. I liked the maps, and yes, I did put the entire mall on a battlemap - well, the first floor anyway. Then I spread about half a big bag of M&Ms to represent the shoppers and other innocent bystanders. It worked well. I do a fair amount of tinkering with any published adventure to make it fit my campaign, so I don't have a big problem with using characters in previous books. I did that in the second scenario, adding CLOWN - oops! 5th ed. no-no! - into the mix (their plan was to steal the fake diamond and replace it with a real one) I guess I'm in the minority on the speed charts. I like them, but perhaps they could be redesigned to put in a few other key stats (like CON and STUN)), and the primary attack powers for each character. Perhaps with a bare-bones version like this, you could run the battles even without one of the sourcebooks. I didn't see any wasted space in the product - no, check that. In the description of the park: "The shrubs themselves...have the Disadvantage, Vulnerability: 2X BODY from fire-based attacks." What?! And after all those times the PCs in my campaign have frustrated Firewing by taking cover in the shrubs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 I didn't buy it... I'm getting kind of picky about which supplements I buy, actually, since I used to buy almost everything Champs related, and have most of the previously-published stuff. I will say that if maps were made available in PDF format, that could be easily printed out... I'd buy 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Starcorp, I hope you are still following this thread. I was a bit surprised by your post. You mentioned that after looking at CB, you took Hero off your list at the FLGS. That reaction seemed a bit strong for not liking one book... May I ask if this was something building up, or was there something about CB that offended you THAT much? Being a loyal customer for 20 years like you have been, DOJ would probably like to know what it was about a single book that so turned you off (I would like to know too out of curiosity). Polaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcorp Man Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Polaris Starcorp, I hope you are still following this thread. I was a bit surprised by your post. You mentioned that after looking at CB, you took Hero off your list at the FLGS. That reaction seemed a bit strong for not liking one book... May I ask if this was something building up, or was there something about CB that offended you THAT much? Being a loyal customer for 20 years like you have been, DOJ would probably like to know what it was about a single book that so turned you off (I would like to know too out of curiosity). Polaris Building up, my disappointment in the hero line has been growing. Change doesn't bother me, unneeded change does, and that is what I feel is going on with the hero line and with the increase in price of the books with getting less out of each book I just can't bring myself to stay product loyal, to keep buying something I get little out of (coming from the guy who was going to pay sight unseen for 5E when they were trying to do the certificate thing to afford the print run.). The last adventure, with very few extras disappointed me. I really liked with previous version of champs that adventures added new villians, heroes, etc to the set, gave me more to use. For example the Cardboard Characters - Champions SKU: DOJHEROCC01 This PDF contains miniatures for 12 Champions Universe characters. 6 bucks for a 1 sheet of mini's, and the thread that used to exist where it was said that basically unless these sell, there are no more.. Seems strong armish in perception, whether it is or not is fine, it's perception and the line is starting to feel that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Well I can agree on the prices of games now and disagree at the same time. DOJ's games are running 25-32 bucks a game, while other companies are staying around 25. However, DOJs page counts are much higher for your money. When you factor in that the price of just about everything is gonna up they really are quite fair. It's just in the day and time you have to be picky on what you purchase. I haven't picked up CBG and doubt that I will for sometime. Between the cashflow and the fact that were gearing up a FH campaign it's just not up there on the Priority list. However, Viper will be a pick up regardless. They've been my favorite villain group since forever and doubt that will change. So there are books on the schedule that I know going in I won't be picking up, not a knock on the quality just usefulness to me as the GM. There are others I will be getting and I haven't seen the final product or the PT's PDF yet. I just know based on the discription that it's something I need. That coupled with the continuing, IMHO, rising quality of DOJs books, I will be getting them. I will say I would purchased the maps as a PDF from CBG. If for know other reason than maps are always a good thing to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Just an FYI... GURPS produces deck plans (6 so far) and floor plans (2-3 so far) which feature play-size maps of locations with 1m hexes on one side and 5' squares on the other. Floor plans include a haunted mansion and grounds, a mall, and a silo-underground base. Deck plans include a variety of starship designs from traveller... including iirc merchant and military varieties. I have found them useful and even used them when running HERo champions games. Also, the hero clix maps are IMo worth the bucks. I have them and they work just fine. They are squares not hexes, if that bothers you. Jope this can help some people loking for maps find some they like and can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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