IKerensky Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Hello, once more I am asking for the insight, experience and common wisdom of the Great Mind. One of my player is pretty one-dimensionnal. So his character is evident : A Brick, with density increase and large fist (BTW the player is the only people I know that have a pick-up line similar to Hulk... genuinely... ). The trouble is that with a HtH Power he raised to 27d6 of damage for a 300pts character... Even if he kept his OCV to 3-4 and isn't the brickest brick in the lot, that is still a large amount of damage and a potential for splotchiness for the opposition. I know I will give him the No-Killing limitation wich will greatly hinder his combat potential (hard not to kill living thingies with an average of 27 BODY) and against Supervillain is lack of OCV and speed will make him somewhat useless, enough to be balanced ? The question is : how do you balance great STR and HTH Power ? Should'nt HtH power be rated more than 5pts by DC ? Or be limited with players without Super-Strength ? Opinions ? way you manage the situation ? Thanks, Nathaniel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? First off, I think you are the first person to sugest HA be more expensive than STR I have ever seen... Second no, HA should not be limited to characters w/o SS. Hawkman, Thor, Hercules, to name just a few who would have both Finnaly to your problem, just tell the player "Sorry, your damage is way more than I want in my game, you need to curtail it some" Hero uses the GM to balance the game, each campeign will be different, maybe in mine I don't mind huge damages like that (I do BTW) but not fitting for another game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Rereading your post I noticed something HA DC's are calculated as Dice from STR + HA (so your guy has 27 DC's) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? A lot of folks use various caps in their games: no more than x DCs, no more than x AC, etc. Others rule characters in or out based on the potential disruption a character can create in their game. Granted, both of these are preemptive, and it sounds like you're already passed that. Time for specialists. Wait before you say anything: I've already been accused of that. I suggested specialists some years ago, and got my skull danced on for being a horrible and cruel GM. That being the case, I never bothered finishing the thought. But here goes: Everyone at the table is going to expect to have fun, and that includes you, too The problem with a character than can potentially bust your game wide open is that a lot of you might not end up having any fun: a character who can break the game can wipe the floor with everyone while everyone else finishes the fine details of their car loans. Certainly, a lot of that has to do with how much faith you have in the player himself. Many years ago, I had a character in a thirteen-year-long campaign who, at the point I just couldn't stand to play him anymore, had an STR of -- well, let's just "ridiculous" and move on. If you're player can be trusted to tailor the personality of his character in such a way that he doesn't end up as the be-all, end-all of all combat and action, there might not be anything to worry about. And if not-- that's where the Specialists come in. If your player is interested in everyone else having fun, he'll probably appreciate this. The Specialist is that opponent specifically built to bedevil a particular character or team. No; I am not suggesting that you build a character who can wipe out your player's character. I _am_ suggesting that you biuld a character that you're player will have a challenge defeating-- you know: his chance to have some fun while the other players deal with the other enemies. An Abomination to your player's Hulk, so to speak. Though it need not be another super-brick. It could easily be a speedster with a very small attack that just happens to be tailored so as to get through the player's specific defenses. Again, this is hard: you have to be sure that you don't build a character that will wipe the floor with him. After all, he's put some work into his character, and has a vision for his character the same way that you have for your game. But a high-DEX, high-SPD character that can whittle away at him will force him to think a bit: figure out how to deal with this guy. Next time around, he faces a character that can harmlessly absorb the bulk of the player's blows, and use the energy to power a Flash attack or an Entangle or .... well, you get the idea. Just remember that these foes should be tailored to both have a chance against this guy but _not_ beat him at his own game. If your player wants to build "the strongest man in the world," it's going to take the fun out of the game for him if he suddenly meets the _real_ Strongest Man in the World. The difficult part is making sure that the Specialist is the foe that you're player will face, as the odds are that the other villains won't be able to stand up to a lot of 27DC attacks. Honestly, even the Specialists shouldn't be able to stand up to a lot of that! He should have a way to "cope" other than "I soak it up and laugh!" Avoidance is a good start. The most important thing about the Specialist, though, is that he should be constructed in such a way that his intended foe is actually the best foe to take him out. Perhaps he has an attack that might take advantage of another player's weaknesses, or perhaps his defenses are enough to shrug off any of the other player's attacks, making the brick the one with the best chance to take him out. Yes; it's really, really hard. But if you're going to let a potential game-breaker into the game, you have to be prepared to keep the game from being broken. Though again: If you really trust this guy to do the right thing when it comes to game time, then it likely isn't going to be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Mackinder Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? The trouble is that with a HtH Power he raised to 27d6 of damage for a 300pts character... Even if he kept his OCV to 3-4 and isn't the brickest brick in the lot' date=' that is still a large amount of damage and a potential for splotchiness for the opposition..[/quote'] That's a lot of damage, but there should be times when it is not appropriate - fighting non-bricks / normals, for example. On the other hand, supers with good enough evasive abilities or who are very skilled in Hand-To-Hand would probably run rings around him. Assuming that opponents CHOSE to go hand-to-hand in the first place - if they are smart, they wouldn't. An enemy with good ranged attacks and suitable enhancements could make life very difficult for this guy. Or a mentalist. I know I will give him the No-Killing limitation wich will greatly hinder his combat potential (hard not to kill living thingies with an average of 27 BODY) and against Supervillain is lack of OCV and speed will make him somewhat useless' date=' enough to be balanced ?[/quote'] VERY bad idea. Imposing extra limits just because you don't like a specific Character build never ends well. It only makes Players resentful. Instead, politely tell him that the Character is too powerful in that particular respect, and needs re-doing. Basically, more points in other (non H-to-H) areas. The question is : how do you balance great STR and HTH Power ? Should'nt HtH power be rated more than 5pts by DC ? Or be limited with players without Super-Strength ? Opinions ? way you manage the situation ? In a nutshell, judgement of the individual Referee. And be prepared to say "NO" if you think the Character is really out of line. Also, a common thing in many games is having power limits for all Characters - nobody can do more than a certain amount of damage, and nobody has more than a certain amount in Defense, for instance. Sounds like you may want to consider that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKerensky Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Thanks for your advice averyone The trick is that if I curtail his ability to use HA, by lowering his DC it will look weird compared to the other players... One have a 10D6 HA with a 10 STR, wich isn't a trouble. He will have a 2D6 HA with 60 STR, wich look a bit weird... That the trouble with Threadshold, if I put a hard limit on DC and STR (like I planned to do by the way ), it means the higher STR guys will have attacks that sound very puny, if used by anyone else... I guess I will follow your ideas and : 1- Limit his STR, 60 is a bit too much, 40 will be plenty enough. 2- Limit his HA, put a lot less DC and add more avantages. 3- Use the freed points in more skills and more even Stats. By the way, the same guy have a 20 PD 2ED defense... so his character is already severly unbalanced, and a disaster in being... Looks like the GM job is to take all the characters sheet and re-write them a lot before handing them back... wich make sense in a way a lot of my players dont read the rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey88 Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? The trick is that if I curtail his ability to use HA, by lowering his DC it will look weird compared to the other players... One have a 10D6 HA with a 10 STR, which isn't a trouble. He will have a 2D6 HA with 60 STR, which look a bit weird... I disagree. You've got a guy strong enough to benchpress the space shuttle, and on top of that, he's got large, hyperdense fists - so instead of 12d6 with a punch, he does 14d6. That seems reasonable to me for a 300 point character. It seems part of your problem is that you automatically separate STR damage dice from extra HA damage. His extra 2d6 HA isn't a "wimpy attack", it's a small bonus to his already impressive superstrength punch. It's like an extra 10 STR, with the limitation "only for damaging stuff". 27d6 is probably too much for a Galactic Champions game, where characters are built on 700 points or more - don't be afraid to tell this player that his character is absolutely crazy and unbalanced! One of the best ways to curtail this sort of min-maxing, IMHO, is creating a series of campaign benchmarks - basically, create at least a vague list of various characteristic and power levels representing where the rest of the heroes and villains in your campaign world sit. For example: The (consistently) strongest guy in this world has a STR of 90. Most bricks at your power level will have a STR of 55 - 70. Don't go above 65, unless your character is all about STR and nothing else. A SPD of 5 is average superhero-level, a SPD of 6 is on the fast side, a SPD of 7 is "wow, that guy's pretty fast" by superhero standards, a SPD of 8 is "good grief! that guy's really fast!", and SPD 9 and up is powerful speedster territory only. Sounds like you and your crew are pretty new to the HERO System, so these kind of mental benchmarks may (understably) not be second nature to you - there's a few threads kicking around here about various characteristics as they relate to various published superheroes, so that might be a good place to start. Also, If you have any of the books with collections of heroes or villains (eg. Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks or Champions Worldwide), those are a good place to start looking for these sorts of common reference points. Looks like the GM job is to take all the characters sheet and re-write them a lot before handing them back... wich make sense in a way a lot of my players dont read the rules...That's par for the course, ESPECIALLY when the players don't understand the rules at all! Making a character in any system should be an effort split between the player and the GM, and it's even more so with a game that permits as much freedom as the HERO System. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? There is an easy way to let a high STR character have a HA as well. Insist that the HA has combat Advantage(s)* and cap the dice at half the campaign norm. *(This automatically limits the amount of STR that can be combined with the HA to the base HA DC's) Why would anyone ever do this you ask? Whatever Advantage(s) also apply to the applicable STR for free. See my versions of Thor and Superman for examples of this concept. Both have +6 DC Advantaged HA's giving them the potential of 12d6 Advantaged attacks. Both characters already have the potential of reaching a STR of 60 (or higher). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? are youfamiliar with the champions bok there is a section on making tv style heroes with lower level powers try having your player check that out and remake the character so he'll be more balanced with the other characters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? 27d6 would flatten most opposing bricks in one hit even in fairly powerful games. Your player may not have a lot of fun if he defeats every opponent with his first punch that connects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKerensky Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? 27d6 would flatten most opposing bricks in one hit even in fairly powerful games. Your player may not have a lot of fun if he defeats every opponent with his first punch that connects. I am afraid he will be perfectly satisfied... the trick being for him to connect, because right now he is on OCV-3 against opposition of DCV-7/8, and with a SPD 3 against 5-6... Sure he will hit good... if he manage to roll a 3 now and then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? I am afraid he will be perfectly satisfied... the trick being for him to connect, because right now he is on OCV-3 against opposition of DCV-7/8, and with a SPD 3 against 5-6... Sure he will hit good... if he manage to roll a 3 now and then... The problems will come as he's part of a team. Sure, his OCV 3 won't hit DCV 8 too often. But when he's on a team, he can be a lot more powerful. The high movement characters pick him up and get him into position. Other characters flash the enemy, entangle them, knock them down etc. to lower their DCV. Suddenly that 3 OCV is targeting a DCV 4 and gets a lot likelier to connect. Then when he gets a little experience, out come the 2pt levels. Ten XP down the road, that 27d6 attack is swinging at OCV 8. You could of course say "no" to the levels, but it's probably better to just say "no" to the 27d6 up front. Help him build a character that can still be powerful and have some schtick protection but isn't a one-dimensional top heavy construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Like I said earlier, remember that HA adds to Str for calculating DC's, they are not seperate abilities (anymore than Martial Arts are) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Thanks for your advice averyone The trick is that if I curtail his ability to use HA, by lowering his DC it will look weird compared to the other players... One have a 10D6 HA with a 10 STR, wich isn't a trouble. He will have a 2D6 HA with 60 STR, wich look a bit weird... What's the special effects of the 10d6 HA? Because unless it's "Super Dense Fist", I don't see the problem with one character having more HA dice than the other. In general, I'd probably give a the brick between 0d6 and 4d6 extra dice of damage for having a super dense fist. He's already getting a bunch of extra damage for being super dense just by having the increased strength from DI. How much more dense is his fist that it would justify all those extra dice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKerensky Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Also don't forget about endurance ! What is his exact strength, HA and does density increase a power or special effect , and what is his end and rec ? For discussion if he has 100 str (20 DC) that mean he has 10 end per attempt to punch. So if he only has 20 end, that only TWO punches. And if he forgot to buy up his rec then it will take a couple of phaes to get enough energy to even punch again. *Note I don't have 6th so I'm taking guesses at the starting point on the old figured charateristics. You can also require that the higher strength must take increased end lim. too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? Ninja-Bear beat me to the Endurance discussion. My suggestion was going to be to allow an acceptable DC as-is, with additional DC (whether from STR or HA or combinations thereof) available at either higher END, or only in certain circumstances (Enraged, takes a full phase, etc.). Sure, he can do 27 DC, but not all the time. I will add that, if a lot of the brick's damage is from high STR alone, he can also hit high DCV targets easily by careful use of the environment. In a past game, one PC had a brick that loved to pick up Chevy vans* and pound his opponents with them, targeting a 3 DCV hex instead of a 10 DCV martial artist. Sure, the MA could dive for cover, but that doesn't work if the MA already attacked that phase. As others have said, all games need balance as well as enjoyment for all. It sounds like he wants to run a combat monster, and a one-shotter at that. I think a compromise can be found that would work for both of you. *And yes, he would seek out Chevy vans above other brands. It became a running gag. He even jumped over lines of parked cars and vans to find a Chevy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretID Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? What most others said, plus: Note that the Spread maneuver allows him to trade DCs for OCV, so he can balance himself as needed, if he has that many DCs. Looks like the GM job is to take all the characters sheet and re-write them a lot before handing them back... wich make sense in a way a lot of my players dont read the rules... You get a big range. It sounds like this guy needs a bit more than many. When someone is off to a rough start - however well intentioned - I'll sometimes just send them a suggested draft, which the player can then edit. It's almost always appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? And Bolo of Earth beat me to the impromptu "Area of Effect" that super-bricks have at their disposal: Trucks, busses, chunks of pavement, sections of wall, etc. That CV:3 becomes _much_ more effective when he's attacking a dozen hexes at once. Depending on how you play Dive for Cover, an AOE can effectively make that impossible (I know: not as written, but some of us only allow a Dive for Cover if there is actually "cover" in your movement range). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? But don't forget that if the brick doesn't have any other powers, he can be made ineffectual very easy. If he is flashed, even with a area aafect, it becomes harder to anything. A well placed entangle or two could slow him down. A couple of snipers with no range penalty scopes will wreck havoc on the brick. And don't forget mental powers, and my favorite the strength draining bomb ! Point is, you never fight to an opponents stregths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Re: How to balance the heavy brick ? But don't forget that if the brick doesn't have any other powers' date=' he can be made ineffectual very easy. If he is flashed, even with a area aafect, it becomes harder to anything. A well placed entangle or two could slow him down. A couple of snipers with no range penalty scopes will wreck havoc on the brick. And don't forget mental powers, and my favorite the strength draining bomb ! [/quote'] Precisely. This falls into the idea of the Specialist: a character specifically designed to take advantage of an archetype's weakness while minimizing his exposure to that same archetype's strengths. _However_, care should always be taken in the design to ensure that you're not simply spanking your player. The Specialist should be a challenge, even difficult, to defeat, but he should not be impossible, and should be designed such that your player has a fair fighting chance of taking him in any encounter. The best approach is to ensure that there is more than one way that a character might get a lick in now and again. If it becomes a matter of "finding his _one_ weakness" or the "_one_ technique" that will thwart him, then it's just a random guessing game while the Specialist proceeds to dominate the player, and that's not going to be much fun for either of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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