A Storeowner's First Impression

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I kind of agree about the back cover blurb, there should have been a one paragraph variance on the specific volume.

On the other hand he kind of shows how, er, well illiterate he is... the giant Volume 1 / Volume 2 is a bit of a clue.

 

The fact they are sold separately implies they are useful separately. Perhaps they should only have been offered as a slipcovered set of two volumes. Of course, that reduces choice, which runs counter to Hero philosophy. However, anyone purchasing only one volume thinking they can use it to play a game will be disappointed. Most gamers are familiar with the "need these books to use this book" structure, but with the cover blurbs identical, neither volume indicates you need both to have the complete rules, does it?

[RexMundi]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Some interesting posts. I'll toss in mine, both good and bad. Also, I'll toss in my game creds to as a long term convention support flunky and demo guy for multitudes of other game companies, and their product both good and bad....So I'm looking at this not only as a long term fan of the Hero System that still clings to his 1st print run of Champions like the holy grail in the face of the heathen armies of d20 spin offs and what not, but as someone used to marketing and running a product for multitudes of different types of players, etc etc ....This is just a quicky after only having the books for 2 days....I'll have a follow up after some serious game play.

 

The Good. This is easy. I like the rules changes, it smooths out a lot of plains really, while still making my shelves upon shelves of old game material still more then useful. Again Steve Long proves why a Smart, Dedicated Line developer is a GOOD THING. No gripes with any changes, since the one thing I have seen as a gripe from others is that they feel they are paying More to get the same they had previously, but if you have a good grasp of SCALE, it's easy to see this isn't so. The matching complications rules are nice, and the tool kit pop ups are handy as well. Game play is much faster as well, movement is smoother easier to translate, and power structure is more intuitive too.

 

I'm also don't mind the cover which seems to be a stinking point for a lot of folks. From a marketing point of view, to those folks out there that seem to think more is better. More Glitz, More Glam, More foil covers. Not so. ICONIC, and simple, remains in the thoughts and minds longer, and stand out amongst the glitz and glam of the competing product a lot more. All I would have done differently, is reverse the colors. Maybe in the 6E revised.

 

The Genre sections were a nice touch as well though I would have liked to have seen them beefed up a bit more, what was there was a great foundation presentation.

 

The Bad: Worst "Construction" I have seen, (And I do demo work for Mongoose Publishing so I am used to the British "Explosion" as your book falls apart in your hands. (Though to be fair they fixed that issue and replaced all crappy product out of their own pocket)) for a COVER, yet. It's soft and Mushy, with the majority of the product having bubbled up covers and serious de-lamination issues on top of Pocks, Air Bubbles, Creases, Scarification, corners that look like a dog was gnawing on them and other mangling. Being that shade of blue doesn't help either with hiding any of the damage. NOW, to be fair to HERO and DOJ, I've seen this a LOT in Chinese printed product. The BINDING, seems to be as impervious as the binding used for FRED, which is a good thing. However. My now two day old copies of Volume 1 and 2, look three times as old and beat up as my BBB copy, or my Non Revised FRED which I HAVE used in hand to hand barfight combat. You backhand someone with a copy of Fred, they tend not to get back up.

 

I bought the best looking copies I could get out of the boxes (And the hobby stores here ordered a LOT), and those boxes came from the Hobby Store with the best set of boxes. I don't know if the damage happened in shipping, or in distribution, but it's extensive, ugly, and doesn't market well for buying 80 bucks worth of books. Out of 50 copies of Volume 1 and 2; I went though, I only found 5, that weren't bubbled, scared, pitted, or in various stages of cover de-lamination. This wasn't just little damage you don't notice unless you go over it with a fine tooth comb this was glaring stuff you could see in any sort of light from any distance.

 

The Ugly: Ouch this thing is expensive. Because I believe in supporting your Fine Local Hobby Store, I bought the books at one of the ones somewhat near me (merely a 150 mile round trip or so). A Slip covered package with books in it would have been much more preferable, because the Stores, aren't selling these things at the combined MSRP. To be honest, they are VERY unfamiliar with the Volume Structure, don't understand why there are a volume 1 and 2 Hard Back and what the Advanced and Basic Players books ARE, or what they are for, and no one is telling them. Still, you ARE getting quite a bit for your money, and there is very little fluff. It's pretty much all usable material. I still would have preferred though, ONE big arsed book, but from a marketing, printing, and binding point of view, I can see the thinking involved in splitting it the way they did.

 

Glossy Pages. I will forever HATE them. I'll be the first person to line up to buy a high definition black and white copy written on the same paper as FRED, so I can tab, highlight, and pencil in notes and changes to my hearts content. I find anything written on glossy pages to be difficult to read, especially under CFL light, but that's mostly because I'm an old crabby biker and perhaps younger eyes are better. Not a big fan of having to wear latex gloves to read my game book to so that the Ink doesn't come off on my finger tips. Still though when I found a real light bulb to read by they read well enough and I am sure the newer generation prefers their "color tv" while those of mine, are perfectly content with radio drama.

 

Not overly impressed with the art (except for the Pulp Stuff because Pulp is Rock Star) either though understand that comes from the viewpoint of a guy that simply doesn't care if ANY art is in his game books. I'm disappointed, the "Draw your Character" outline from the BBB days again wasn't in the books, but I can add those in easy enough anyway when I make my own character sheets as I inevitably have to do because my d20 players are incapable of understanding a character sheet unless every skill, talent, power, etc, is already on the sheet for them to see.

 

Over all out of 5 stars, I give it a heavy 4.25, maybe a 4.5. Is it an improvement. Yes. Just fix that cover quality because one shouldn't be able to pick up a book that expensive, and roll it up like a newspaper.

 

~Rex

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The fact they are sold separately implies they are useful separately. Perhaps they should only have been offered as a slipcovered set of two volumes. Of course' date=' that reduces choice, which runs counter to Hero philosophy. However, anyone purchasing only one volume thinking they can use it to play a game will be disappointed. Most gamers are familiar with the "need these books to use this book" structure, but with the cover blurbs identical, neither volume indicates you need both to have the complete rules, does it?[/quote']

 

It contains the following line:

 

The 6th Edition rules come in two Core Rulebooks, Characters and Combat And Adventuring. Together these two books feature:

 

Anyone who thinks they don't need both really is a completely illiterate moron. Or still in Kindergarten. Take your pick.

 

No sympathy from this corner.

 

Flag on the field; Invalid Complaint!

[archermoo]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It contains the following line:

 

The 6th Edition rules come in two Core Rulebooks, Characters and Combat And Adventuring. Together these two books feature:

 

Anyone who thinks they don't need both really is a completely illiterate moron. Or still in Kindergarten. Take your pick.

 

No sympathy from this corner.

 

Flag on the field; Invalid Complaint!

 

The other option is "Didn't bother reading the entire blurb". Which still doesn't generate any sympathy from me...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I love statements "as an artist" ... as another artist, I like both.

 

I kind of agree about the back cover blurb, there should have been a one paragraph variance on the specific volume.

On the other hand he kind of shows how, er, well illiterate he is... the giant Volume 1 / Volume 2 is a bit of a clue.

 

 

I'm an artist too....tssssssss glug, glug, glug....

[mayapuppies]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Finally got mine in and I have them sitting on my coffee table with the APG.

 

I don't know, maybe it's because they're new, but I love the look and "feel" of them. They seem "right" to me. Can't explain it any more than that.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

"You can do it that way' date=' or that way or that way or if you use that other manual page X you can do it that way too. Of course, by the rules you can do it this way but as a GM you have to overrules it for no other reason that it shouldn't be allowed in the first place."[/quote']

 

Go not to the Hero boards for counsel, for they will answer both no and yes.

[secretID]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Buying HERO isn't like buying a big bag of possibilities' date=' its like buying a big bag of decisions and rules. Theorically that is similar, in fact that is totally different.[/quote']

I like the system, obviously, but you've had some pretty good and well put points in this thread, including this one.

[TSandman]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I don't know, maybe it's because they're new, but I love the look and "feel" of them.

 

Are you gonna Hug 'em & call 'em Georges?

 

Damned, I'm still waiting for mines...

[gojira]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Yeah, I pointed that out and his response:

 

"Doesn't tell me anything."

 

I kid you not.

 

 

I can see his point. "Doesn't tell me anything about what's inside." But I don't have the books in front of me to be able to say whether the back copy is explanatory or not.

 

The books are called "Characters" and "Combat and Adventuring," right? I think the title should tell you something at least.

 

But I can still see the request for having a blurb on the back specifically about the book you are holding. "This first book, Characters, covers how to build your character, blah blah blah.... Be sure to pick up the second book, Combat and Adventuring, to get the complete rules!" Stuff like that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

He doesn't have a point... Here's the back cover blurb

 

ANY HERO — ONE SYSTEM!

 

The best has just gotten even better! The HERO System 6th Edition brings new levels of flexibility and creativity to the acclaimed HERO System, allowing players to create any sort of character, power, gadget, spell, vehicle, monster, or weapon they can think of. Whatever you want to do, in any genre, setting, or time period, the HERO System 6th Edition rules let you do it!

 

The 6th Edition rules come in two Core Rulebooks, Characters and Combat And Adventuring. Together these two books feature:

 

—The full HERO System rules, revised and updated for greater consistency, flexibility, creativity, and ease of use

 

—Options for nearly every element and aspect of the HERO System so you can better create and define characters, campaigns, powers, and everything else to suit your style of play

 

—Hundreds of example powers, gadgets, abilities, weapons, and spells for all genres, plus a dozen example characters

 

—A detailed, comprehensive index

 

So what are you waiting for? It’s time to Be a Hero!

 

If you can't figure out that you need both books for the full rules you are - beyond any doubt - not paying attention. In any way.

 

If the titles can't give you a clue as to what each book might involve - you are not paying attention.

 

If the large Volume One and Volume Two on the front covers don't clue you in - you are not paying attention.

 

The store owner is either complaining to complain or really is an illiterate moron. Flat out.

 

I give no sympathy and no quarter.

[gojira]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The store owner is either complaining to complain or really is an illiterate moron. Flat out.

 

I wouldn't discount the former (complaining to complain), but I do think that explaining your products clearly and simply is important. If I buy something, I like to know exactly what I'm buying. I don't plunk don't cash for no reason. I do as much research as possible for anything I buy, and clear back cover copy would certainly help a confused customer make an informed choice.

 

Just my 2 cents. Not that I actually have any experience with marketing a product or anything similar.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The back cover is an enticement, it's to get your interest peaked enough to open the book and perhaps read the introduction, or go searching for more information online.

[Greywind]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Know what you sell. Simple as that.

 

When I managed a comic shop, the owner got annoyed at me weekly. I'd put up the books, take care of the pull lists, then sit down and read everything that came in.

 

I was able to have a conversation with anyone about anything in the store. Whether it was any of the current storylines in any title, the games we had on the shelves or anything else that was in the store for sale.

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The back cover blub isn't informative enough...

 

It should say : If you are a player all you need is the Character Creation (Volume I), gamemaster would need the rules system included into Combat and Adventuring (Volume II).

 

The aim of a back blurb is to tell you what is in the actual book your are holding, not what is into the two books you are considering buying but only have money for one right now.

 

Afterall, there is 2 of them ? right ? numered volume, right ? doesnt that imply a sequential order of reading or acquiring them or some difference between the two that not make them an automatic bundle ?

 

Being in two volume because it is too costly/cumbersome to print in one BUT needing to be buyed and use as one volume isn't really crystal clear marketing manoeuver.

 

As a player, did I need the Combat And Adventuring or not ? what tell me that on the cover ? arent' my gear/power and weapons into the Combat and Adventuring ? or are they ?

[Rapier]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

If I walk into Walmart and wander over into the HD TV section and RetailBoy doesn't know the difference between 1080p and 1080i, I'm really not so surprised. He has to run and go find someone else, and it's not unusual.

 

Chances are RetailBoy hasn't graduated high school and is doing this, not as a career path, but to earn money to buy weed (or whatever other frivolous hobby he might prefer to engage in). He's not overly vested in learning about the products.

 

Big box stores tend to hire people by droves and they frequently don't have a lot of product knowledge. Their turn-over is also rather high. There are exceptions, of course.

 

However, when you get into a small niche store (like an FLGS) you expect quite the opposite. If I walk into The Soccer Store, I expect the staff members to be able to not only tell me all about soccer but about what items I would need to play soccer.

 

If the staff at an FLGS doesn't have any idea what Hero is or why there are two books or what it does or why it is different...they deserve to be run out of business.

 

I'm certainly hope that I am misunderstanding and no one is actually implying that it is, somehow, DOJ's fault that an FLGS was ignorant about Hero.

 

I'm also jaw-droppingly floored by anyone that says the 6E books do not stand out on a shelf. They are screaming holy-guaca blue.

 

The system is a generic tool-kit. What picture SHOULD be on the cover? Dr D and Seeker? Doesn't that imply a superhero game? So someone looking for a fantasy system will pass it by. Maybe then an orc and a dragon? Then superheroists will pass it by. Maybe a picture of an orc battling a cyborg ninja monkey space pirate dragon riding a stage coach at the bottom of the sea with his fireball spell and an M16? Yeah, good luck with that graphic.

[Rapier]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Know what you sell. Simple as that.

 

When I managed a comic shop, the owner got annoyed at me weekly. I'd put up the books, take care of the pull lists, then sit down and read everything that came in.

 

I was able to have a conversation with anyone about anything in the store. Whether it was any of the current storylines in any title, the games we had on the shelves or anything else that was in the store for sale.

 

I similarly have little sympathy for someone that is going to run into a store, grab the first thing off the shelf that catches his eye and purchase it, only to get it home and be disappointed. Everyone should take at least a little responsibility for themselves...as lacking as that seems to be in this day and age.

[Jagged]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I give no sympathy and no quarter.

 

Well if you wanted to run the OP off the forum congratulations, well done. Another great post showing what a welcoming place this isn't.

 

Meanwhile back on page 1 and the OPs second and last post he made a comparison between how D&D split the content between player & DM books. That a player might expect a similar thing with the hero system as the books are split. After all if there isn't value in a single volume why sell it stand alone at all?

 

While I don't totally agree with his point I do find it reasonable and doesn't deserve your rude response.

[mayapuppies]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Are you gonna Hug 'em & call 'em Georges?

 

Damned, I'm still waiting for mines...

Been doing that all night long.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The back cover blub isn't informative enough...

 

It should say : If you are a player all you need is the Character Creation (Volume I), gamemaster would need the rules system included into Combat and Adventuring (Volume II).

 

The aim of a back blurb is to tell you what is in the actual book your are holding, not what is into the two books you are considering buying but only have money for one right now.

 

Afterall, there is 2 of them ? right ? numered volume, right ? doesnt that imply a sequential order of reading or acquiring them or some difference between the two that not make them an automatic bundle ?

 

Being in two volume because it is too costly/cumbersome to print in one BUT needing to be buyed and use as one volume isn't really crystal clear marketing manoeuver.

 

As a player, did I need the Combat And Adventuring or not ? what tell me that on the cover ? arent' my gear/power and weapons into the Combat and Adventuring ? or are they ?

 

 

No, I think the aim of this particular back cover is definitely to get you to buy both volumes.

 

And as a player - if you want to understand the full range of combat maneuvers and other aspects of Game Play - you are most certainly going to want Volume 2.

 

This is not a Players Guide and DM Guide. This is 2 Volumes of 1 Ruleset.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Well if you wanted to run the OP off the forum congratulations, well done. Another great post showing what a welcoming place this isn't.

 

Meanwhile back on page 1 and the OPs second and last post he made a comparison between how D&D split the content between player & DM books. That a player might expect a similar thing with the hero system as the books are split. After all if there isn't value in a single volume why sell it stand alone at all?

 

While I don't totally agree with his point I do find it reasonable and doesn't deserve your rude response.

 

I wasn't talking about the OP - I was responding to a Post Mayapuppies made. Read the conversation in order. It was specific comments about a specific statement that wasn't the OP.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I wasn't talking about the OP - I was responding to a Post Mayapuppies made. Read the conversation in order. It was specific comments about a specific statement that wasn't the OP.

 

From the actual posts, it's easy to see how the confusion came about. The OP self-identified as a store owner. mayapuppies only identified his conversation partner as:

 

The guy behind the counter

 

Not as a store owner. You responded later with:

 

The store owner is either complaining to complain or really is an illiterate moron. Flat out.

 

without quoting the bit from mayapuppies, so it would seem to be referring to the OP.

 

I'll accept that you misread mayapuppies' post and weren't referring to another poster with your "illiterate moron" comments.

 

Regardless I'd appreciate if everyone would remember to read the Rules of Conduct, especially this part:

Rule One: Respect Others.

The new rules and books are apparently emotional issues for some (some pro, some con) but let's all remain civil when discussing them. Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Fair enough, for clarification: All my later posts are a direct reference to the conversation Mayapuppies had with the store owner he encountered. The guy who said the back cover blurbs were useless. I have no respect for him. None.

 

I have no particuarl thoughts in either direction with the OP as his opinion is well reasoned and well presented. I have respect for the OP, I don't agree with all of it, but I respect his thoughts on the matter.

[archermoo]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It is worth noting since there seems to be some confusion, to the best of my knowledge the 6e rules are split into two volumes because it would be a physical problem to print the entirety of the rules as a single volume. They aren't a player's book and a ref's book. I've personally known quite a few players in the time that I've played Hero that would get by quite well only with the Combat and Adventuring book, as they always would have others make their characters for them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The back cover blub isn't informative enough...

 

It should say : If you are a player all you need is the Character Creation (Volume I), gamemaster would need the rules system included into Combat and Adventuring (Volume II).

*********************************************************

As a player, did I need the Combat And Adventuring or not ? what tell me that on the cover ? arent' my gear/power and weapons into the Combat and Adventuring ? or are they ?

 

As a player, I think I need both books. As very limited examples, when I build a character with Martial Arts, I will want to know what the maneuvers I am purchasing do. When I look at skill levels, I will want to know the choices of the maneuvers to which they will apply. Volume I features "how to construct your character". Volume 2 features "How to play the game". Both are necessary to both players and GM's.

 

No, I think the aim of this particular back cover is definitely to get you to buy both volumes.

 

And as a player - if you want to understand the full range of combat maneuvers and other aspects of Game Play - you are most certainly going to want Volume 2.

 

This is not a Players Guide and DM Guide. This is 2 Volumes of 1 Ruleset.

 

Absolutely. However, the back cover, while implying that, does not explicitly indicate "You need both volumes to play the game". And if it did, the logical next question would be "Then why are they sold separately?" or, at a minimum, "Why are they only sold separately?".

 

It's fine to say "the game store owner should be able to tell you". However, that basically says "Hey game store owners - if you aren't going to read these hundreds of pages, don't stock our product, since your ignorance renders you ill suited to market it on our behalf". Putting the exact same back cover blurb on a slipcase with both volumes (with the combined MSRP) would seem a lot clearer statement that the game itself comes in two volumes - you can't buy Volume 1, play for a while, then expand the game with Volume 2, which is a likely (mis)interpretation of the current structure.