Invisible Armor

[Ninja-Bear]

I have a quick thought. I justed watched the Spirit Killer (a Thai movie). And One of the bad guys is called a zombie. Now if he is a zombie, its because the main villian is a vodoo priest. Anyways, the "zombie" looks like a normal person, but when attacked by swords, he sufferes no damage, not even pierced! Now part of this is because of the budget of the movie. But it got me thinking, if I wrote him up, I would give him armor, but when you look at animals that have armor it is always visible, even cows.I figure though that certain animals, like cows though may not look like "armor", then general knowledge is that the hide is tough. But since it surprises the heroes, and they still keep trying, I figure the armor should be invisible.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

I have a quick thought. I justed watched the Spirit Killer (a Thai movie). And One of the bad guys is called a zombie. Now if he is a zombie' date=' its because the main villian is a vodoo priest. Anyways, the "zombie" looks like a normal person, but when attacked by swords, he sufferes no damage, not even pierced! Now part of this is because of the budget of the movie. But it got me thinking, if I wrote him up, I would give him armor, but when you look at animals that have armor it is always visible, even cows.I figure though that certain animals, like cows though may not look like "armor", then general knowledge is that the hide is tough. But since it surprises the heroes, and they still keep trying, I figure the armor should be invisible.[/quote']

 

Actually, in 5e Armor is invisible unless you apply costs end or the visible limitation. I don't have my 6e books handy as Im not at home, but I assume Resistant Defense works the same way by default.

[Balabanto]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Well, or the Focus limitation. You can't take visible and Obvious Inaccessible or Obvious Accessible Focus. A shield can't be bought with Obvious Accessible Focus AND Visible. That's just dirty pool.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Actually' date=' in 5e Armor [i']is [/i]invisible unless you apply costs end or the visible limitation. I don't have my 6e books handy as Im not at home, but I assume Resistant Defense works the same way by default.

 

In the interest of total clairty, I asume you mean Resistant Protection.

[dmjalund]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

I think he means that the fact that the person is not actually harmed is hidden from the attackers - that IS a new kind of invisible power effect, kind of like painless attacks that SEEM not to actually have hurt you

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Well' date=' or the Focus limitation. You can't take visible and Obvious Inaccessible or Obvious Accessible Focus. A shield can't be bought with Obvious Accessible Focus AND Visible. That's just dirty pool.[/quote']

 

Yes you can - perfectly legal construct by the rules.

 

Appropriateness is completely within the realm of the campaign and game at hand.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Actually' date=' in 5e Armor [i']is [/i]invisible unless you apply costs end or the visible limitation. I don't have my 6e books handy as Im not at home, but I assume Resistant Defense works the same way by default.

 

Armor is invisible ? I thought that all powers (except of course, invisibilty) are visible, unless otherwise the advantage is paid for. Could you kindly point out where armor is invisible at? I looked under the description, and to no avail.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

5ER Power Visibility: p98 and p102.

 

Only Powers that cost END are Visible. Armor does not cost END and is not inherently Visible itself.

 

6E Power Obviousness: p124-126

 

Resistant Protection is a Defense Power and in Inobvious.

 

--

Note: The Power itself is not detectable (or obviously so); Effects of Attacks are.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

In the interest of total clairty' date=' I asume you mean Resistant Protection.[/quote']

 

Yes, and I assume you meant assume not asume.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Well' date=' or the Focus limitation. You can't take visible and Obvious Inaccessible or Obvious Accessible Focus. A shield can't be bought with Obvious Accessible Focus AND Visible. That's just dirty pool.[/quote']

 

Yes, an obvious Foci also, or Physical Manifestation, etc.

 

Also, you can apply Visible even to an already visible power, in which case it means its EXTRA visible, but that's just a tangent.

 

 

The central point being that Armor is not Visible by default, unless you apply a modifier that makes it so.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Yes, an obvious Foci also, or Physical Manifestation, etc.

 

Also, you can apply Visible even to an already visible power, in which case it means its EXTRA visible, but that's just a tangent.

 

 

The central point being that Armor is not Visible by default, unless you apply a modifier that makes it so.

 

And for another tangent, if you want the armor to protect the charcter, but appear as though he took the full damage, that would neccessitate buying Invisible Power Effects on the (SFX-wise) already invisible Armor.

 

Note: The Power itself is not detectable (or obviously so); Effects of Attacks are.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

And for another tangent' date=' if you want the armor to protect the charcter, but [b']appear as though he took the full damage[/b], that would neccessitate buying Invisible Power Effects on the (SFX-wise) already invisible Armor.

 

Although IPE allows you to buy an Attack Power and make the target not perceive the results of an attack (something I would consider to be a very rare ability), I'm not sure I'd allow a Defense Power to conceal the fact that the Character didn't take damage. For one, although a Player knows how much damage he rolled, the Character doesn't. At best, he'd have an estimate of "a glancing blow", "a pretty solid hit", etc.

[casualplayer]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

If the power provides clues to the observer to make tactical decisions then it is Visible. No one smart wastes bullets on Colossus because he has Visible Resistant Protection; they shoot at a different one of his teammates or opt for something that might scuff his armor. People still seem to want to take a shot at Superman, even with his reputation, because he looks like he has bullet-vulnerable flesh.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

People still seem to want to take a shot at Superman' date=' even with his reputation, because he looks like he has bullet-vulnerable flesh.[/quote']

 

That may also be because most gun-toting Characters (PC or NPC) suffer from "My gun is #1, all others are #2 or lower!" syndrome.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

And for another tangent' date=' if you want the armor to protect the charcter, but [b']appear as though he took the full damage[/b], that would neccessitate buying Invisible Power Effects on the (SFX-wise) already invisible Armor.

 

Not necessarily. Within limits, what a defense power looks like when its working is an SFX thing, including what it looks like when its stops damage. For instance, one of the common SFX for resistant defense is "heals real fast", in which case the character appears to be injured briefly but the "wounds" heal up instantly -- this is pure SFX; mechanically the attack failed to diminish stun or body by a set amount and the description of what it looks like in action is just fluff.

 

 

The rules don't actually define what damage "looks like" mechanically. Characters perceive when they are being attacked. IPE: hide effects of power is more for cases when you are doing damage or effect to something and want to prevent them from realizing they are being affected.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

And for another tangent' date=' if you want the armor to protect the charcter, but [b']appear as though he took the full damage[/b], that would neccessitate buying Invisible Power Effects on the (SFX-wise) already invisible Armor.

 

Not necessarily. Within limits, what a defense power looks like when its working is an SFX thing, including what it looks like when its stops damage. For instance, one of the common SFX for resistant defense is "heals real fast", in which case the character appears to be injured briefly but the "wounds" heal up instantly -- this is pure SFX; mechanically the attack failed to diminish stun or body by a set amount and the description of what it looks like in action is just fluff.

 

Yes necessarily. Even if the SFX is "heals real fast" the people making the attack still can, and are required to be able to by the rules and common sense, tell that he's not as hurt as he should be. If you don't want your opponents to be able to tell that your still uninjured, then you must buy Invisible Power Effects on your armour.

 

Like so, It's Only A Flesh Wound: Damage Negation(-3 DCs, Physical), 15 Base Points; Invisible Power Effects(Effects invisible to others but not to self) +1/2, 22 Active Points; BODY Only -1/2, 15 Real Points

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Yes necessarily. Even if the SFX is "heals real fast" the people making the attack still can' date=' and are required to be able to by the rules and common sense, tell that he's not as hurt as he should be. If you don't want your opponents to be able to tell that your still uninjured, then you [i']must[/i] buy Invisible Power Effects on your armour.

 

Like so, It's Only A Flesh Wound: Damage Negation(-3 DCs, Physical), 15 Base Points; Invisible Power Effects(Effects invisible to others but not to self) +1/2, 22 Active Points; BODY Only -1/2, 15 Real Points

 

Cite a rule, please. When characters take BODY they evince injuries of a nature determined by SFX and GM's discretion. Specific optional rules such as impairment can lock this down to specifics, but in general the HERO System doesn't impose penalties for levels of STUN or BODY above 0; a character can be at 100% STUN or 1 STUN and they function the same.

 

The attackers don't know how much STUN or BODY a given target has, or how much defense they have, or how "injured" they might be at any given time. It's all purely descriptive.

 

The GM can opt to describe the scene such as "Your sword embeds solidly in the things shoulder and grinds to a halt after striking bone. However, the creature seems unfazed. It says..."....BRRRRAAAAAAAAAAIIIIINSSS!!!!!!" and scrabbles its claws towards your face" if they like, even if mechanically your attack was stopped by the target's defense. They could also opt to describe it a different way.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Cite a rule, please. When characters take BODY they evince injuries of a nature determined by SFX and GM's discretion. Specific optional rules such as impairment can lock this down to specifics, but in general the HERO System doesn't impose penalties for levels of STUN or BODY above 0; a character can be at 100% STUN or 1 STUN and they function the same.

 

The attackers don't know how much STUN or BODY a given target has, or how much defense they have, or how "injured" they might be at any given time. It's all purely descriptive.

 

The GM can opt to describe the scene such as "Your sword embeds solidly in the things shoulder and grinds to a halt after striking bone. However, the creature seems unfazed. It says..."....BRRRRAAAAAAAAAAIIIIINSSS!!!!!!" and scrabbles its claws towards your face" if they like, even if mechanically your attack was stopped by the target's defense. They could also opt to describe it a different way.

 

First of all, that description tells you that he is effectively unhurt, and secondly under Obviousness of Defense Powers on 6e1 page 126 says that the target effect, i.e. reducing damage, becomes obvious once the character is attacked by something that obviously should have hurt him, thirdly the Blob Monster example for IPE on 6e1 338 describes buying IPE to hide the fact that you didn't take or took reduced damage, which would be pointless if the fact that you weren't hurt wasn't necessarily obvious by default.

[薔薇語]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Anyone thought about explicitly asking Steve about this?

 

La Rose.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Cite a rule, please. When characters take BODY they evince injuries of a nature determined by SFX and GM's discretion. Specific optional rules such as impairment can lock this down to specifics, but in general the HERO System doesn't impose penalties for levels of STUN or BODY above 0; a character can be at 100% STUN or 1 STUN and they function the same.

 

The attackers don't know how much STUN or BODY a given target has, or how much defense they have, or how "injured" they might be at any given time. It's all purely descriptive.

 

The GM can opt to describe the scene such as "Your sword embeds solidly in the things shoulder and grinds to a halt after striking bone. However, the creature seems unfazed. It says..."....BRRRRAAAAAAAAAAIIIIINSSS!!!!!!" and scrabbles its claws towards your face" if they like, even if mechanically your attack was stopped by the target's defense. They could also opt to describe it a different way.

 

I'd call that a combination of getting little (if any) BODY though defenses, and the target being an Automaton with "Takes No STUN". The "stopping at bone" part is/could be the SFX of not doing any BODY (i.e. significant) damage.

 

IMO an attack generally knows how "powerful" his attacks are, and can (should be able to) distinguish between what should be a good hit, and one that is likely not. If, upon a good hit (like shooting some guy in tights in the eye), the target is unaffected both visually, and in the target's reaction (bullet fails to penetrate eyeball, no blink), you can *deduce* that there is a defense (or some combination of powers that have a similar net effect), but that does not mean it is/they are visible. Rogue was also an extremely tough character, yet she also appeared normal. But in both their cases, when an attack *does* affect them, it shows visually on their person, and in their reactions.

 

Wolverine appears normal (excluding the claws and weird hair), yet when he gets shot/stabbed, his flesh very quicly rearranges back to an undamaged state. This would IMO be a good candidage for Visible Resistant Defenses, the SFX being "I heal back super fast".

 

Now, for a target to *appear* to take damage that it didn't (the opposite situation of Superman/Rogue being shot), thus fooling the attacker into thinking he is making headway requires something more than just the normally non-visible defenses (IMO). Thus IPX on the non-visible defense power. Which means that for a normally visible defense power to do this would require buying it twice -- once to hide it's normal SFX, and again to hide the fact that it is stopping damage. But this is a fairly rare ability, and I cannot think of any examples offhand that couldn't be explained by other means (like having Takes No Stun & high enough defenses to not take BODY).

 

Most people know that the only way to stop a zombie is head trauma (though if it is in lots of little pieces, its also effectively stopped). You can still hack off an arm, however. So they have a defense against BODY damage that can be exceeded, but never seem to "feel" any of the damage (thus Takes No Stun).

 

The thing is, even with the IPX on defenses "trick", sooner or later players will catch on there is something going on. After shooting over 9000 rounds at a target from a minigun and mowing down everything around them, and with every bullet hit they look like they took a full bullet hit, yet aren't mowed in half... 2+2=4! That's when they often would try heavier artillery (RPG, Claymore, 5lb block of C4...) or a change in tactics.

 

So that IPX on defenses is IMO of limited use, and might not be necessary, but it does have an effect when it is used.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

First of all' date=' that description tells you that he is effectively unhurt, and secondly under Obviousness of Defense Powers on 6e1 page 126 says that the target effect, i.e. reducing damage, becomes obvious once the character is attacked by something that obviously should have hurt him, thirdly the Blob Monster example for IPE on 6e1 338 describes buying IPE to hide the fact that you didn't take or took reduced damage, which would be pointless if the fact that you weren't hurt wasn't necessarily obvious by default.[/quote']

 

I was referring to 5e, as noted. Puling out the 6e PDF....

 

 

Obviousness of Defense Powers on 6e1 page 126:

 

Defense Powers: Defense Powers are Inobvious.

However, as with Automaton Powers, the Target

Effect may be Obvious after a character suffers an

attack. For example, if a character gets hit by an

anti-tank missile and shows few (if any) signs of

harm, it’s Obvious to anyone who saw the attack

that the character has a Defense Power of some

sort.

 

Automaton Powers: Automaton Powers are

Inobvious. However, the fact that a character has

one may become perceivable based on the Target

Effect. This may be Obvious, or the GM may

require that a character has to succeed with a PER

Roll or INT Roll to determine why the character

suffered so little harm.

 

the Blob Monster example for IPE on 6e1 338

 

INOBVIOUS POWERS

If a Power is Inobvious, it can typically be

perceived by two Sense Groups (Sight and one

other) when in use, and sometimes the GM may

require a character to succeed with a PER Roll to

perceive it. To make the Power “invisible” (imperceivable)

to one of those Sense Group is a +¼

Advantage; to make it Fully Invisible (“invisible”

to both) is a +½ Advantage.

 

Example: A Giant Blob Monster has an incredibly

tough body that makes it hard to hurt it.

Even though it looks like it’s being hurt by attacks

— cut, burned, smashed, or what have you —

in fact it’s suffering little or no injury. The Blob

Monster buys its Defense Powers with Invisible

Power Effects (+½), since even when its defenses

function, onlookers can’t perceive them.

 

So, yes, that's a little different. At least its just a +1/2 level of IPE, not entirely unaffordable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

It is not completely clear under 6e at to the 'visibility' of Resistant Protection. The perceptibility rules have changed significantly, but I would suggest that RP is Inobvious and only in effect when you are under attack i.e. it can be detected when in use, like a movement power: it is usually obvious to a successful observer that there is something happening here because they would NORMALLY see an attack hit but have little or no effect, however when RP is in operation but you are not under attack it is not 'in use' - or I'd argue that it is not - so you can not normally tell that someone has RP until they are attacked and then only by the lack of effect the attack has.

 

A cow, if they have RP due to their tough hide and sheer size, and it is obvious that they would have at least a degree of RP when you observe one, even if it is not under attack, could buy RP with a limitation that makes the power visible at all times - rather than just when 'in use', thus getting it cheaper.

 

I would not allow IPE to model someone who apparently takes the damage, even though they do not: I do not think IPE has any real applicability to RP. If someone wanted that effect I'd require one of two things:

 

1. You could 'apparently' take the damage then 'instantly heal' if you defined your RP as hugely fast regeneration (like Hulk) - but it HAS to be clear that the attack has been ineffective, at least in part OR

 

2. If you want to fool your opponent into thinking you are more hurt than you are, buy a power that fools opponents - like a Self only Image, or a triggered shapeshift.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Thanks for Killer Shrike for pointing out the example on 6.1.338 - the Blob Monster is an interesting one - I'd not allow that personally because I think there is a big difference between 'not being able to perceive a power' and 'being fooled into thinking something is happening that is not' - but them's the rules...

 

The problem I have is that the rules make - pr purpose to make - the EFFECT of a power invisibly, or undetectable. By that token you should be able to make an attack IPE and, even though you kill your target, they don't fall over or 'apparently' die.

 

I'm pretty use a house rule is needed here.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

I was referring to 5e

 

I did find what you were refeering to, and its on pg 102 in Fifth rev. Again, I should read the rules like my signature says. I assumed that it was automatically visable, because whenever I bought it, it was either oif or oaf. Anyways thanks everyone for the comments!

[GoldenAge]

Re: Invisible Armor

 

Wolverine appears normal (excluding the claws and weird hair)' date=' yet when he gets shot/stabbed, his flesh very quicly rearranges back to an undamaged state. This would IMO be a good candidage for Visible Resistant Defenses, the SFX being "I heal back super fast".[/quote']

 

Unless he's wearing a winter coat that completely hides his skin, in which case one might believe him impervious to all attacks.