Nightmask Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I am working on a fantasy campaign and like to know how unlikely a fantasy world with multiple races would be. Also, how would one figure that out and what variables would be used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Unless they are in completely disjoint environments such that they aren't aware that the other is present or sentient until high-level tech is available -- for example, terrestrial and benthic environments -- in a natural world, simultaneous multiple sentient races are most unlikely. Species-level competition will develop on contact, and it is likely to result extinction for the loser. In fact, anything that might be of the opinion that it should be higher on the food chain than a sentient race is pretty much slated for extinction or at best radical marginalization. On a fantasy world, where intervention of supernatural entities can shield things from destruction, all bets are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world By definition most, if not all, fantasy worlds are unlikely. So, in all honesty, I'd suggest "just go with what works for you." As Cancer said, once you toss magic into the mix and divine agents, you can pretty much toss reality and such out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world What Susano said. Even without magic, sentient species could coexist for extended periods, even if they are in contact with each other - as long as they aren't in direct competition. Historically, Neanderthals and modern humans coexisted for tens of thousands of years. Other varieties of humans and near-humans probably existed simultaneously with each other at various points. If different groups were geographically separated from each other, coexistance is even more likely. And that's just considering humans and near-humans. There are other highly intelligent species on Earth than humans. Sure, dolphins, dogs, pigs, chimps and so on aren't quite "sentient" - but they're pretty close. A non-human species that crossed the border would be quite conceivable. But the magic thing trumps this anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Assault beat me to the punch. I think that the question is when first contact is made on a cultural level. I find it highly unlikely that we, the human race, would instantly decide to eradicate a new sentient species. Tossing in the supernatural seems to improve chances of coexistence to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Unless they are in completely disjoint environments such that they aren't aware that the other is present or sentient until high-level tech is available -- for example' date=' terrestrial and benthic environments -- in a natural world, simultaneous multiple sentient races are most unlikely. Species-level competition will develop on contact, and it is likely to result extinction for the loser. In fact, anything that might be of the opinion that it should be higher on the food chain than a sentient race is pretty much slated for extinction or at best radical marginalization. [/quote'] Didn't we share the planet, briefly, with Homo Erectus? Could see a single sentient species splitting into different species, Morlocks and Eloi, so to speak. Say a hunter/gatherer society lives in the forest, and trades with a society that fabricates metal objects and lives in Earth-sheltered dwellings. If there is no crossbreeding for several millennia, could lead to something like elves and dwarves. Problem is, no culture is stable that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Didn't we share the planet' date=' briefly, with [i']Homo Erectus[/i]? I think you mean Neanderthal. Yes, our very own planet is an example of two different sentient races evolving on it at the same time. It's entirely possible if the races don't compete for the same resources or out multiply each other. If they ever get into competition (as in us versus the Neanderthals) - then only one race will survive and the others will become extinct (if you regard killing other races as part of the natural selection process of extinction). Neanderthals - sometime after 516 ka (516,000 years before today) and becoming extinct by 25 ka Humans - 160 ka to the present day Which means we had a shared planet for 135,000 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world I don't see any final dates for H. Erectus, but the wikipedia article mentions the possibility of inter-breed between H. Erectus and H. Sapien, so I assume that their date ranges must have overlapped too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world I think you mean Neanderthal. Yes, our very own planet is an example of two different sentient races evolving on it at the same time. It's entirely possible if the races don't compete for the same resources or out multiply each other. If they ever get into competition (as in us versus the Neanderthals) - then only one race will survive and the others will become extinct (if you regard killing other races as part of the natural selection process of extinction). Neanderthals - sometime after 516 ka (516,000 years before today) and becoming extinct by 25 ka Humans - 160 ka to the present day Which means we had a shared planet for 135,000 years. I was going to say that but I couldn't find a proper source to cite. But in a nutshell we have technically existed for longer with other sentient races than we haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world But in a nutshell we have technically existed for longer with other sentient races than we haven't. Good summary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world From a different perspective, in many Robert E. Howards stories, he had different races formed by devolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Were they prone to playing the banjo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world I am working on a fantasy campaign and like to know how unlikely a fantasy world with multiple races would be. Also' date=' how would one figure that out and what variables would be used?[/quote'] Never mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world I am working on a fantasy campaign and like to know how unlikely a fantasy world with multiple races would be. Also' date=' how would one figure that out and what variables would be used?[/quote'] I guess the biggest variables are: 1) How related are they? Dogs and wolves can interbreed because dogs were breed specifically from wolves. Donkeys and horses can produce mules which are usually not fertile. 2) Is there something separating the species? The original species when separated on different continents often diverge based on different evolutionary pressures while retaining some of the original ancestor qualities. 3) When does sentient develop? If sentience developed earlier (somehow) during the reptile phase, then you could have reptiles, birds, monotremes and mammals all as sentient creatures. 4) Did magic or technology cause the species to develop? Just throwing some ideas out there. Until we find another planet with life (and its similar to us) we won't know how likely any of the possibilities are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world It's a matter of resources. If there are enough to support multiple races, there's no reason to think they couldn't evolve side-by-side. Especially if they evolve in different environments - humans and mermen, for example, wouldn't necessarily be competing for the same resources, nor would forest elves and underground dwarves. Remember of course that territory is a resource; if populations get big enough to crowd into the domain of another race, that's an evolutionary pressure. The result could be cooperation/symbiosis, like herding species on the savanna (but note, though they share the same grassland, again there is plenty to go around). So I'd say the main variable is the abundance of resources, including land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world It helps that many fantasy races are very niche-based. In other words -- dwarves are mountains/underground, elves are forests, lizardmen are swamps, orcs are badlands, and humans tend to be everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world ... and humans tend to be everywhere. Well, we do now. Historically, the environments where large numbers of humans could live and did live was more restricted. Sure, there were always exceptions, but with limited technology (and no magic) some types of terrain are just not very well suited to human communities living there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Look at the range of environments people lived in across the Americas, though, and the level of technology they did (or did not) have. Of course, it does depend on what you meant by "large numbers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world I can think of mechanisms by which the existence of one intelligent species might encourage the development of others. Competition with a rival sentient species could spur increased intelligence in one's own. Or a symbiotic relationship, such as that between humans and dogs, could foster the development of the lesser species' intelligence over time. This is in addition to outright uplift via breeding, magical, or technological means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world You know not being politically correct, at one time there was multiple races. Black, white, red and ohters were "races". You can use something like this to make different races. Elves and dwarves are the same folk (as in some sources). And the goblinkin can be a corrupted race of these elderfolk, ala Tolkein Orcs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world There's some confusion in terminology, with "race" used in a lot of fantasy gaming where "species" would be more appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world There's some confusion in terminology' date=' with "race" used in a lot of fantasy gaming where "species" would be more appropriate.[/quote'] Would it? As long as a half-elf exist, I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world Would it? As long as a half-elf exist' date=' I think not.[/quote'] So, you regard horses and asses as one species? Lucius Alexander Considering palindromedaries and backandforthtrians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world So, you regard horses and asses as one species? Lucius Alexander Considering palindromedaries and backandforthtrians No, because their cross-breeds aren't fertile. Wolves and dogs, one species. Anyone know if Ligers are fertile? They're pretty scary even if their not. In Tolkien, both Elrond and Aragorn are descendants of the half elves Eärendil and Elwing. Most of the source materials suggest half-elves are fertile, or are silent on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: What are the chances of multiple sentient races to evolve/be created on one world These are from wikipedia so they must be true: Wolfdogs are fully fertile; dogs are classified as a subspecies of wolf. Dog-coyote and dog-jackal hybrids are less fertile. Male ligers are sterile, but female ones are often fertile. Same goes for tigons. Ligers are not really viable hybrids as their parents would never mate in the wild, and because they must generally be delivered by caesarian. Mules and hinnies are usually sterile, as are zebra-donkey hybrids. All are members of the same genus, but are separate species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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