Package Deals?

[GoldenAge]

So, I think I need a little help...

 

I'm sticking with 5th Edition, but I may be stuck in an old 4th Edition paradigm where Package Deals are concerned...

Or, I've been doing them wrong all along (which more likely than anything else).

 

I've always looked at the Package Deal as a character bonus that adds to a character's effectiveness. It was my belief that you subtracted the Package Deal Disadvantage bonus from the actual cost of the Package Deal Advantages and the end result was the total cost of the Package Deal.

 

Thus a Cop or Dwarf could gain a small set of characteristics/skills/Talents/Perks for free, or at least a reduced price, in return for enduring extra Disadvantages.

 

Now, as I understand it, Package Deal Disadvantages are included with a character's regular Disadvantages...

 

Say you're playing a base 250 point game with an added 100 points of Disadvantages (350 point characters). Does the Package Deal simply provide Disadvantages that can be applied to the Disadvantage total (100 pts) or do the Package Deal Disadvantages add to the 100 pt Disadvantage total (thus allowing the character a few more Active Points to play with)???

 

If it's the first (does not increase overall Disadvantage total) then why should it be so scrutinized by the GM and how will it afford other characters an advantage (as the book alludes)?

 

Of course I understand that either way Package Deals are a good way to standardize recurring professions/races/whatnot and are still useful regardless of how the points are applied. But I LOVED the idea that a Package Deal was a bonus (jist like a creative Elemental Control/Multipower/VPP).

 

A little help please?

[pinecone]

Re: Package Deals?

 

So, I think I need a little help...

 

I'm sticking with 5th Edition, but I may be stuck in an old 4th Edition paradigm where Package Deals are concerned...

Or, I've been doing them wrong all along (which more likely than anything else).

 

I've always looked at the Package Deal as a character bonus that adds to a character's effectiveness. It was my belief that you subtracted the Package Deal Disadvantage bonus from the actual cost of the Package Deal Advantages and the end result was the total cost of the Package Deal.

 

Thus a Cop or Dwarf could gain a small set of characteristics/skills/Talents/Perks for free, or at least a reduced price, in return for enduring extra Disadvantages.

 

Now, as I understand it, Package Deal Disadvantages are included with a character's regular Disadvantages...

 

Say you're playing a base 250 point game with an added 100 points of Disadvantages (350 point characters). Does the Package Deal simply provide Disadvantages that can be applied to the Disadvantage total (100 pts) or do the Package Deal Disadvantages add to the 100 pt Disadvantage total (thus allowing the character a few more Active Points to play with)???

 

If it's the first (does not increase overall Disadvantage total) then why should it be so scrutinized by the GM and how will it afford other characters an advantage (as the book alludes)?

 

Of course I understand that either way Package Deals are a good way to standardize recurring professions/races/whatnot and are still useful regardless of how the points are applied. But I LOVED the idea that a Package Deal was a bonus (jist like a creative Elemental Control/Multipower/VPP).

 

A little help please?

Package deals Used to be extra ie: the disadds for the package did not count vs the max, they reduced the cost...this was changed to "disadds are disadds" ie a "Package deal" was just a list, no "deal" at all.....6Th? No idea, but I Suspect it is also a "package" with out the "deal"....

[GoldenAge]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Yup, that's what I feared... All Package, no Deal.

 

Well, I guess it's time for SUPER HOUSE RULE to save the day!

[Grymour]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Yup, that's what I feared... All Package, no Deal.

 

Well, I guess it's time for SUPER HOUSE RULE to save the day!

 

Seems like a good Idea. I remember in 4e that you also got a few extra points for going with a package deal. IIRC it ranged from 1 to 5 points based upon how many points contained in the package. When I run games I allow the disads from a package to be in addition to the normal disads.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Package Deals?

 

scientist

linguist

engineer

jack of all trades

???

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Well that was the problem with 4th ed in the sense was what did the bonus apply to. If I understood it correctly, the bonus was applied to your disadvantages-not to get extra points in the deal. So, I think that it was removed to eliminate this confusion. I still don't wrap my mind fully around it. One change that they did do that was nice was if your building a race, you don't have to buy the characeristic maxima first in the package. You just add the amount to be the avereage stat. Example, if you make elves average of 12 dex then the package just has a +2 dex in it. But I do think you should get a deal for taking a package though. Oh, and I heard that in 6th they are now referred to as Templates.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Package Deals?

 

the scientist skills/talent/perk allows a charcter to buy their science skills for 1 less point

for example Cobra might buy

3 Scientist

2 anatomy based on intelligence 14-

2 neurology based on intelligence 14-

2 physiology based on intelligence 14-

2 Genetic Design based on intelligence 14-

2 cybernetics based on intelligence 14-

2 Viral genetic alterations based on intelligence 14-

2 Zoology based on intelligence 14-

15 points

 

without the scientist ability, Cobra would have payed 18 points for 6 base 3 skills

 

I see no reason a similar Police Officer ability shouldn't exist

 

3 Police Officer

2 conversation (base on presence)

2 interrogation (base on presence)

2 deduction access the possible dangers in a situation (base on intelligence)

2 bureaucratics (base on presence)

2 criminology (base on intelligence)

2 knowledge skill: the law (base on intelligence)

 

 

3 Dwarf

1 knowledge skill: gems 11-

1 knowledge skill: metals 11-

1 knowledge skill: stone 11-

2 cartography

2 weapon smith

2 navigation

2 concealment

2 Security Systems

2 Lock Smith

[Panpiper]

Re: Package Deals?

 

The way packages are handled now in the game and seemingly by most GMs, where there is no bonus for taking one, is in my opinion an utter waste of points. If package deals are optional, then I will never take one. They are a lists of some things I 'do' want, and inevitably several things I do not want, things I believe are a waste of points, at least for my conceptions they are. Why would I pay points for things I do not want if there is no benefit to me in doing so? If package deals are 'required' (because if they are not required why on earth would anyone ever take one other than pure laziness in building a character), then they simply turn Hero games, that epitome of total freedom and flexibility, into just another class system, where the only flexibility is flexibility for the GM in defining their classes.

 

In the game I started recently I never so much as mentioned package deals to my players. And they never asked about them either. Why would they? "Please GM, would you give us a class structure so as to limit our freedom in character design?" I don't think so. "Please GM, would you give us lists of stuff we don't want for our characters, so we can pay points for that stuff, just because it is on your lists?" I don't think so.

 

The only way I would ever hand my players a list of package deals would be if the 'complications' reduced the cost of the package, so that stuff you 'didn't' want to pay for, is compensated for by the package. Then, and only then, do package deals make sense for any purpose other than creating a class structure or a convenience for lazy players.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but package deals right now have been nerfed to in-utility.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Package Deals under 6E are called Templates. And it's because a Template is a list of attributes that one can expect from any given profession so characters across a campaign are consistent.

They wok the same way in 5E.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Package Deals?

 

the scientist skills/talent/perk allows a charcter to buy their science skills for 1 less point

for example Cobra might buy

3 Scientist

2 anatomy based on intelligence 14-

2 neurology based on intelligence 14-

2 physiology based on intelligence 14-

2 Genetic Design based on intelligence 14-

2 cybernetics based on intelligence 14-

2 Viral genetic alterations based on intelligence 14-

2 Zoology based on intelligence 14-

15 points

 

without the scientist ability, Cobra would have payed 18 points for 6 base 3 skills

 

I see no reason a similar Police Officer ability shouldn't exist

 

3 Police Officer

2 conversation (base on presence)

2 interrogation (base on presence)

2 deduction access the possible dangers in a situation (base on intelligence)

2 bureaucratics (base on presence)

2 criminology (base on intelligence)

2 knowledge skill: the law (base on intelligence)

 

 

3 Drawf

1 knowledge skill: gems 11-

1 knowledge skill: metals 11-

1 knowledge skill: stone 11-

2 cartography

2 weapon smith

2 navigation

2 concealment

2 Security Systems

2 Lock Smith

While a GM could certainly allow something like you suggest it completely ignores the fact that Characteristics and sometimes even Powers are often part of Package Deals/Templates, as are Disadvantages/Complications.

[dmjalund]

Re: Package Deals?

 

if you combine Templates with the option of not making characters pay for skills they are not likely to use in the game, you can approximately get something like 4e (for some templates)

 

and for racial templates, it may be the only way you can buy Powers and/or Characteristics as Powers (at least without being a wizard/cyborg/etc)

[Matt Holck]

Re: Package Deals?

 

While a GM could certainly allow something like you suggest it completely ignores the fact that Characteristics and sometimes even Powers are often part of Package Deals/Templates' date=' as are Disadvantages/Complications.[/quote']

 

Well, I wouldn't let a player buy Dwarf skills set without being short

nor the police officer skills without an appropriate background

nor the scientist skill without buying dyslexia (ok maybe scientists don't have to buy dyslexia).

 

The method presented does allow the the players to get points back for playing a package concept.

While statts are no part of the this list, a police officer would benefit from buying a higher presence more than someone without these presence based skills.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Package Deals?

 

The way packages are handled now in the game and seemingly by most GMs, where there is no bonus for taking one, is in my opinion an utter waste of points. If package deals are optional, then I will never take one. They are a lists of some things I 'do' want, and inevitably several things I do not want, things I believe are a waste of points, at least for my conceptions they are. Why would I pay points for things I do not want if there is no benefit to me in doing so? If package deals are 'required' (because if they are not required why on earth would anyone ever take one other than pure laziness in building a character), then they simply turn Hero games, that epitome of total freedom and flexibility, into just another class system, where the only flexibility is flexibility for the GM in defining their classes.

 

In the game I started recently I never so much as mentioned package deals to my players. And they never asked about them either. Why would they? "Please GM, would you give us a class structure so as to limit our freedom in character design?" I don't think so. "Please GM, would you give us lists of stuff we don't want for our characters, so we can pay points for that stuff, just because it is on your lists?" I don't think so.

 

The only way I would ever hand my players a list of package deals would be if the 'complications' reduced the cost of the package, so that stuff you 'didn't' want to pay for, is compensated for by the package. Then, and only then, do package deals make sense for any purpose other than creating a class structure or a convenience for lazy players.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but package deals right now have been nerfed to in-utility.

 

What you said is fine. one adavantage of a template though is making sure that a certain character has the skill (or whatever) you feel that a person should have, like a police officer. Now that being said, here is an ideas that came to mind which I think would make package deal better. You could give special skills or perks that you can't have by anyother source. And make sure it gets used once and awhile. You have a contact with a Captain in the Army. Also you could let someone with the package be able to take a higher skill roll than the campaigns limit. Say your limit is 13- Breakfall (heroic game) your pc can have a 15- roll to represent the special training he took as a Ninja. not saying that this is perfect, but a suggestion.

[The Suave]

Re: Package Deals?

 

I really like using Templates as impromptu NPC character sheets. Oh, this guy got talked into tagging along and needs to make an X skill roll? No problem I have a generic "write-up" right here!

[pinecone]

Re: Package Deals?

 

the scientist skills/talent/perk allows a charcter to buy their science skills for 1 less point

for example Cobra might buy

3 Scientist

2 anatomy based on intelligence 14-

2 neurology based on intelligence 14-

2 physiology based on intelligence 14-

2 Genetic Design based on intelligence 14-

2 cybernetics based on intelligence 14-

2 Viral genetic alterations based on intelligence 14-

2 Zoology based on intelligence 14-

15 points

 

without the scientist ability, Cobra would have payed 18 points for 6 base 3 skills

 

I see no reason a similar Police Officer ability shouldn't exist

 

3 Police Officer

2 conversation (base on presence)

2 interrogation (base on presence)

2 deduction access the possible dangers in a situation (base on intelligence)

2 bureaucratics (base on presence)

2 criminology (base on intelligence)

2 knowledge skill: the law (base on intelligence)

 

 

3 Dwarf

1 knowledge skill: gems 11-

1 knowledge skill: metals 11-

1 knowledge skill: stone 11-

2 cartography

2 weapon smith

2 navigation

2 concealment

2 Security Systems

2 Lock Smith

 

I think you sre thinking of Expert, my fav point reducer...Expert: Police work, Expert: Dwarven Paragon!....etc....only a small dose of handwavium required...

[pinecone]

Re: Package Deals?

 

What you said is fine. one adavantage of a template though is making sure that a certain character has the skill (or whatever) you feel that a person should have' date=' like a police officer. Now that being said, here is an ideas that came to mind which I think would make package deal better. You could give special skills or perks that you can't have by anyother source. And make sure it gets used once and awhile. You have a contact with a Captain in the Army. Also you could let someone with the package be able to take a higher skill roll than the campaigns limit. Say your limit is 13- Breakfall (heroic game) your pc can have a 15- roll to represent the special training he took as a Ninja. not saying that this is perfect, but a suggestion. [/quote']

Yeah, it can work as a "Must be this tall" sign, if you want Federal police powers you need to get through the academy. And to graduate you had to pass some classes....

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Package Deals?

 

I think you sre thinking of Expert' date=' my fav point reducer...Expert: Police work, Expert: Dwarven Paragon!....etc....only a small dose of handwavium required...[/quote']

 

Is Expert a new skill enhancer ? If so that's cool.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Package Deals?

 

it's elemental

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Is Expert a new skill enhancer ? If so that's cool.

 

Yes, page 45 of The Advanced Player's Guide.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Expert Skill Enhancers are also in The Ultimate Skill

[pinecone]

Re: Package Deals?

 

Is Expert a new skill enhancer ? If so that's cool.

 

Yep...Ulti-skill...I have a big meandering thread that is titled something like Trust me, I'm an Expert! It's mostly Ninja's and Pirates, but it's all about the Expert..