New advantage idea: Permanent

[megaplayboy]

I've noticed a lot of powers have time limits on them, like adjustment powers, summon(number of tasks), transform(subject can recover), etc.

What would be the appropriate value of an advantage which rendered, say, an adjustment power permanent? I'm thinking in the ballpark of +2, but could be persuaded slightly higher or lower.

Or Summon? That also seems like a +1 or +2 would capture it pretty well, imo.

[Greywind]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Push it down the time chart and use the appropriate modifier until it is virtually "forever".

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I've noticed a lot of powers have time limits on them, like adjustment powers, summon(number of tasks), transform(subject can recover), etc.

What would be the appropriate value of an advantage which rendered, say, an adjustment power permanent? I'm thinking in the ballpark of +2, but could be persuaded slightly higher or lower.

Or Summon? That also seems like a +1 or +2 would capture it pretty well, imo.

 

Push it down the time chart and use the appropriate modifier until it is virtually "forever".

 

100 years should cover it. It's +1 to bring the increment to 1 Minute, and +1/4 for each of the 12 levels to bring it to the century mark, for a total of +4. If you think that making the interval a full year will be enough, it's still +3.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

At that point, it's nothing more than a justification for a character to spend XP on increasing his attributes/powers. A permanent summon is a Follower.

[Lucius]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

At that point' date=' it's nothing more than a justification for a character to spend XP on increasing his attributes/powers. A permanent summon is a Follower.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily, in either case.

 

First, "Adjustment Power" does not necessarily mean "Aid, to myself." It could be Aiding someone else, or Draining someone else, for example.

 

Second, a permanent Summon may be, but does not have to be, a Follower. It might not even be a Contact. In fact, it could become a Hunted! "You called me into this world, and you don't know how to get me back? What were you thinking? You'll pay for this!"

 

In fact, I think there should be an option for Summon that doesn't involve being able to compel the being to do "tasks" - more of a "you asked for it, you got it, now forcing/persuading it to do what you want is a seperate problem."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Permanent Palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Indiana Joe has the right number; +4 to put it down far enough on the time chart to exceed the campaign and/or Character lifetime limit in most circumstances.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

At that point' date=' it's nothing more than a justification for a character to spend XP on increasing his attributes/powers. A permanent summon is a Follower.[/quote']

If a Follower dies, what happens to the points spent on them? If you don't get them back, then there would be a definite advantage to a Summon that never disappears…

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

If a Follower dies' date=' what happens to the points spent on them? If you don't get them back, then there would be a definite advantage to a Summon that never disappears… [/font']

 

You can get another follower (or, I'd say, respend them if you don't want one). Batman respent Jason Todd's points on Tim Drake, after all.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

That's a comic reference, not a rules reference, so it's not really at all helpful. I don't have my book with me. Anyone have an actual answer for what happens if a Follower dies. (Actually, meaning RAW).

[the fox]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Lucius, who said adjustment powers are aid to oneself? Of course if your able to buff/ debuff others only, that makes you more powerful. Powerful is not nec. CHAR, I would hope we all know this.

 

Megaplayboy, according to the rules, a +2 advantage only makes an adjustment fairly long-term, to make it 'virtually permanent'. Tell us how long-term +2 is, and allow us to decide if this is 'virtually permanent'. Then I'll call it 'permanent', since this value makes it vritually so. If your gonna fix the rules, at least tell us where your getting your numbers!

 

Follower die? Be the cold-blooded GM and treat this, point-wise, like vehicles and other equipment. If the character isn't going to be resurrected or replaced, re-spend the points.

Extra Lives, at 4 pts. apiece, was a 2nd edition power that stated how the points are 'lost', or 'permanently spent', everything else can presumably be re-spent, subject to GM's approval, of course.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

If I recall correctly, the rules don't actually say what happens, they leave it up to the GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

First' date=' "Adjustment Power" does not necessarily mean "Aid, to myself." It could be Aiding someone else, or Draining someone else, for example. [/quote']

 

Permanent Aid to someone else should have a cost simialr to Usable by Others which would be Persistent and not end regardless of what happens to the character who granted the power. A permanent Drain could be simulated by enough steps up the time chart, as already noted, or by a Transform (target to target with less stats).

 

"Permanent" is one of those absolutes that the system tends to avoid wherever possible. However, it would seem easy enough to establish a number of steps purchased up the time chart where the GM says "if you buy it that far up, it's permanent".

 

Second' date=' a permanent Summon may be, but does not have to be, a Follower. It might not even be a Contact. In fact, it could become a Hunted! "You called me into this world, and you don't know how to get me back? What were you thinking? You'll pay for this!" [/quote']

 

Can you provide an example of what a permanent Summon may be which does not already have a mechanical equivalent? You can buy a follower or a contact, and you can take a Hunted (or have one arise in play, in which case it has no point value).

 

In fact' date=' I think there should be an option for Summon that doesn't involve being able to compel the being to do "tasks" - more of a "you asked for it, you got it, now forcing/persuading it to do what you want is a seperate problem."[/quote']

 

I thought this was already available as a limitation, but I could be misremembering. In any case, it's a simple matter to use "limited power" and set this limitation.

[Lucius]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Lucius' date=' who said adjustment powers are aid to oneself? [/quote']

 

I read Crosshair Collie's comment as implying that. I may have misunderstood.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that being misunderstood by Lucius Alexander is not an uncommon experience.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Megaplayboy' date=' according to the rules, a +2 advantage only makes an adjustment fairly long-term, to make it 'virtually permanent'. Tell us how long-term +2 is, and allow us to decide if this is 'virtually permanent'. Then I'll call it 'permanent', since this value makes it vritually so. If your gonna fix the rules, at least tell us where your getting your numbers![/quote']

 

By the RAW, +2 would only set the adjustment period to 6 hours. While that would definitely be a problem if you were in an adventure that took place in a short period of time, it's hardly permanent.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Follower die? Be the cold-blooded GM and treat this, point-wise, like vehicles and other equipment. If the character isn't going to be resurrected or replaced, re-spend the points.

Extra Lives, at 4 pts. apiece, was a 2nd edition power that stated how the points are 'lost', or 'permanently spent', everything else can presumably be re-spent, subject to GM's approval, of course.

I'm confused. How, exactly, is allowing the points to be re-spent, being "cold-blooded"?

[Escafarc]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I'm still waiting to get 6E and I don't have Fred on hand right now. But the cases where pts are lost permantly were using the Independent limitation, a dead Dupe, and I believe when you use up a Favor. Unless the GM rules otherwise you can respend other points.

[Lucius]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I'm still waiting to get 6E and I don't have Fred on hand right now. But the cases where pts are lost permantly were using the Independent limitation' date=' a dead Dupe, and I believe when you use up a Favor. Unless the GM rules otherwise you can respend other points.[/quote']

 

There is also the "Charges do not recover" Limitation, but yes, permanent loss of points situations seem to be few and far between.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is less Independent than it might like to be.

[torchwolf]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I'm still waiting to get 6E and I don't have Fred on hand right now. But the cases where pts are lost permantly were using the Independent limitation' date=' a dead Dupe, and I believe when you use up a Favor. Unless the GM rules otherwise you can respend other points.[/quote']

Independent is gone in 6E, and there seems to be a general shift throughout the 6E rules about the "lost points" issue; in the case of Favors, Contacts and some other Perks in particular, the points spent are no longer officially "lost" (as they were described to be as of 5ER RAW) but can be reallocated (unless the GM decides otherwise of course).

I think this also relates partly to what is described under the expanded "you only pay for what you get to use" sections - including Complications (6E1 10, 417; 6E2 270; etc.).

 

The 6E Limitation Charges That Never Recover examples are exclusively from Heroic campaign examples, and I don't think these are actually intended for use in Superheroic games any more than the Independent Limitation was (excepting such things as plot-device items that the players might get to use occasionally rather than pay points for).

[Greywind]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Favors should be given by the GM, IMO, and the player should not have to spend points on them. Once they are used, they are gone, unless the favor becomes a contact. If they become a contact, then the player needs to spend the points.

[megaplayboy]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I picked +2 as a baseline ballpark guess for a fair value, for a couple reasons:

1) a +2 advantage is generally a BIG advantage--a Killing NND, a large Megascale AoE, Cumulative x 64, Continuing attacks that cost no END, etc.

2) I'm guessing most Players and GMs don't buy huge amounts of time delay for adjustment powers, extra task multipliers for Summons and so forth, and a +2 is going to be fairly expensive.

 

I had not realized the delayed return advantage had been modified in 6th at the time of posting, which, yes, means it'd be more expensive to make a Drain or Aid or Absorption effectively permanent. I would point out that pegging Permanent (or "effectively permanent", following the guidelines suggested for the Absolute Effect rule) at +4 would make a 1d6 permanent Drain cost 50 points, a 1d6 permanent Aid would cost 30 points, and Absorption would cost 5 points per point of BODY absorbed. A permanent severe Transform would cost 75 points per d6 (presumably this would be one that could only be undone via another Transform, or a powerful Dispel type effect).

Is +4 appropriate for a Summon? The base number of tasks to be performed by the summoned creature is equal to EGO/2, so "default" would be 2 tasks. The length of time of a task, suggested on p. 289 of Volume 1, is a phase of combat or a day of more mundane service. So, let's take 2 combat phases/ days of service as the baseline, with each level of advantage doubling it. +3 in advantages gets you something like 8,192 combat phases/days of service (about 22 years). In the case of a slavish(+1) summoned being, the default would be 5x as long(or 110 years). So, I think an appropriate value of a permanent summon might be more like +3 rather than +4.

 

What other effects/powers might a "permanent" advantage(or the equivalent) be appropriate or useful for?

[ghost-angel]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Transform does not have to be healed back "normally" - it is perfectly acceptable, and in many of the books done this way, to define a specific condition like "another application of Transform."

[Fearghus]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

I've noticed a lot of powers have time limits on them, like adjustment powers, summon(number of tasks), transform(subject can recover), etc.

What would be the appropriate value of an advantage which rendered, say, an adjustment power permanent? I'm thinking in the ballpark of +2, but could be persuaded slightly higher or lower.

Or Summon? That also seems like a +1 or +2 would capture it pretty well, imo.

 

A permanent summon is a FOLLOWER

Permanent personal adjustment powers are pretty much unreasonable. If you want to aid your Body... just spend points on body

Permanent adjustment attacks are also pretty much unreasonable. Would you really want to face a villain that could drain your Dex down to 1 and leave you there permanently? Essentially stealing dozens of character points from you?

 

I am with Indiana Joe on this one. If you want it to be long lasting buy it on the time chart make it last years or even centuries for a +3 or +4. even then as a GM I would probably not allow it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Well, I don't think a properly priced permanent personal Aid is all that unreasonable--in fact, it would probably be prohibitively expensive compared to just buying the stat outright. But a permanent Aid to others' stats, perhaps combined with a transform--isn't this pretty much what Galactus does when he creates a new herald? Or what the Super-soldier serum does? Point being, there are certainly circumstances or instances where it might make sense.

A long-term adjustment attack could still be offset by the proper Heal, or by regen usable with other characteristics. It would, of course, be a more fearsome power than one which only drained someone for the duration of 1 combat. But I'd expect the costing to reflect that. In combat, 5d6 of drain is likely to be far more useful than 1d6, and harder to defend against.

[Matt Holck]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

permanent threads on the board that will never be deleted

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New advantage idea: Permanent

 

Well' date=' I don't think a properly priced permanent personal Aid is all that unreasonable--in fact, it would probably be prohibitively expensive compared to just buying the stat outright.[/quote']

 

Then why wouldn't you just buy the stat outright?

 

But a permanent Aid to others' stats, perhaps combined with a transform--isn't this pretty much what Galactus does when he creates a new herald? Or what the Super-soldier serum does? Point being, there are certainly circumstances or instances where it might make sense.

 

Those are plot devices.