Presence power framework

[Patriot]

I will be starting up a golden age champions game in the near future.

 

I know one of my players will want to play a golden age batman type.

So what is the best way to write up impressive soliloquiy/presence attacks in a pool?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Presence power framework

 

I am probably not understanding what you are going for here, but why not just extra PRE? Or for flavor maybe a high Oratory roll to give an extra die or two of PRE attack? What else is he doing with his PRE that isn't an interaction skill or a PRE attack that you would need a pool for it?

[JmOz]

Re: Presence power framework

 

No framework is really needed, just extra Presence (Attack only?), and maybe some positive reputation. If you really want a MP, some Mind control might be appropriate

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Presence power framework

 

You could make some powers with amazing presence as a sort of special effect. For example, instead of just ordering someone to "Freeze!" it might be an Entangle with the Mental Paralysis options. Or Mind Control for other commands as JmOz suggests. Or you could make super-versions of Interaction Skills. Super-Persuasion or Super-Charm might be Mind Control. Super-Acting might (especially if the character also had great Disguise/Mimicry skills, as Batman would) be Shape Shift for at least Sight and Hearing, with the Imitation adder. Super-Conversation might be Telepathy. And so on...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presence power framework

 

I'm with Derek.

 

I think Impressiveness can be like any other special effect and you have to think what you want to be able to do, in game, using that special effect and then model that.

 

Using extra PRE is kind of blunt and leaves a lot of interpretation as to effectiveness of the power at hand. Useful for the fuzzy round the edges things but not for very specific game effects.

 

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Champions Powers has some ideas for PRE in the Hyper-Attributes section.

[Ice9]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Using extra PRE is kind of blunt and leaves a lot of interpretation as to effectiveness of the power at hand. Useful for the fuzzy round the edges things but not for very specific game effects.

Blunt, maybe, but Presence attacks have fairly definite effects that are quite effective. While you can get similar (and more customized) results with Mental Entangle and limited Mind Control, you'll probably end up spending 3x the points for the same or less effect.

 

For instance, a 60 PRE gives you a zero-phase attack with a giant selective area that automatically hits and is beyond most foe's chance to resist. While the results vary, the minimum (at full effect) is losing a turn and being at 0 DCV, and it could easily force a surrender right there. Try getting that for 25 points. If anything, the problem can be that really high levels of Presence become overwhelming.

[JmOz]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Personaly however in my games I have a house rule that PRE attacks don't work as well (half effect) vs named villains

[Chimera 12]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Blunt, maybe, but Presence attacks have fairly definite effects that are quite effective. While you can get similar (and more customized) results with Mental Entangle and limited Mind Control, you'll probably end up spending 3x the points for the same or less effect.

 

For instance, a 60 PRE gives you a zero-phase attack with a giant selective area that automatically hits and is beyond most foe's chance to resist. While the results vary, the minimum (at full effect) is losing a turn and being at 0 DCV, and it could easily force a surrender right there. Try getting that for 25 points. If anything, the problem can be that really high levels of Presence become overwhelming.

*checks book*

 

Um, doesn't a 60 PRE cost 50 points? (Granted, it has other benefits as well, including the potential for truly awesome Interaction Skill levels. Still, at this point we are talking about a fair-sized point investment...)

[Ice9]

Re: Presence power framework

 

The 25 points would be for Presence with the "for Presence Attacks only" limitation (-1, no defense vs Presence, no skills), as I was comparing it to a Mental Entangle/Mind Control.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Not all of these are Batman appropriate, but there are power builds that can use presence as a special effect.

 

Take the age-old pulp trope of the young woman hiking up her skirt to summon a taxi - Is it a Summon (with gestures, naturally)? A Contact (nearest taxi driver)? A special effect of an Area Knowledge roll?

 

You can also build some of the Presence Attack effects as powers, to get a more reliable or granular effect:

 

Take the ability to create a distraction by being the center of attention - Presence Attack? maybe. Or maybe it's a change environment with a penalty to everyone's PER roll.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Presence power framework

 

The 25 points would be for Presence with the "for Presence Attacks only" limitation (-1' date=' no defense vs Presence, no skills), as I was comparing it to a Mental Entangle/Mind Control.[/quote']

 

Is "For Presence Attacks Only" a -1 Limitation, though? "Only To Protect Against Presence Attacks" is, yes; but defenses are supposed to be cheaper than the attacks they protect against, presumably in part because you have less control over when they'll be actually useful. In this case, PRE only for Presence Attacks is arguably less limited than PRE only to defend against them because you can choose when to make a Presence Attack, but not when you're going to be exposed to one yourself.

 

I'd say PRE for Presence Attacks only (no defense, no skill boost) looks about like -1/2 -- based in part on the not too farfetched notion that you might, oh, be planning to use it for Presence Attacks at every suitable opportunity. So for +50 PRE bought as such we're looking at...33 points. Still cheap? At first blush, maybe. But then this character has only a PRE of 10 against the Presence Attacks of others, only a base PRE roll of 11-, and his admittedly awesome 12d6 Presence Attack (12-72 points, should by itself get PRE+20 on 'mere' Normals pretty reliably and PRE+30 more often than not) is still subject to a metric buttload of situational modifiers, all but requires him to deliberately draw (potentially hostile) attention, and loses effectiveness with repeated use against the same target(s).

 

(Interestingly, the rulebook never seems to say if and when that repeated-use penalty ever goes away again. Now, I'd assume that the intent is that it eventually does 'reset', if only to avoid the hassle of tracking each and every Presence Attack ever made complete with notes on attacker and target(s), but a more literal-minded GM could have fun with that on occasion: "After you've tried this trick five times during your previous three encounters, Doctor Felonious knows quite well what to expect from you by now. Roll at -5d6, please.")

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Is "For Presence Attacks Only" a -1 Limitation' date=' though? "Only To [i']Protect[/i] Against Presence Attacks" is, yes; but defenses are supposed to be cheaper than the attacks they protect against, presumably in part because you have less control over when they'll be actually useful. In this case, PRE only for Presence Attacks is arguably less limited than PRE only to defend against them because you can choose when to make a Presence Attack, but not when you're going to be exposed to one yourself.

 

I'd say PRE for Presence Attacks only (no defense, no skill boost) looks about like -1/2 -- based in part on the not too farfetched notion that you might, oh, be planning to use it for Presence Attacks at every suitable opportunity. So for +50 PRE bought as such we're looking at...33 points. Still cheap? At first blush, maybe. But then this character has only a PRE of 10 against the Presence Attacks of others, only a base PRE roll of 11-, and his admittedly awesome 12d6 Presence Attack (12-72 points, should by itself get PRE+20 on 'mere' Normals pretty reliably and PRE+30 more often than not) is still subject to a metric buttload of situational modifiers, all but requires him to deliberately draw (potentially hostile) attention, and loses effectiveness with repeated use against the same target(s).

 

(Interestingly, the rulebook never seems to say if and when that repeated-use penalty ever goes away again. Now, I'd assume that the intent is that it eventually does 'reset', if only to avoid the hassle of tracking each and every Presence Attack ever made complete with notes on attacker and target(s), but a more literal-minded GM could have fun with that on occasion: "After you've tried this trick five times during your previous three encounters, Doctor Felonious knows quite well what to expect from you by now. Roll at -5d6, please.")

 

I would definitely say that PRE for attacks only would never be a -1 Limitation. Given how powerful a PRE attack can be, I would even argue that PRE for attacks should only be -¼. Considering that in 6e the HTH attack is bought as STR with a -¼ limitation, I don't think it is a stretch to say that the same value should apply to PRE as well.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Presence power framework

 

I know one of my players will want to play a golden age batman type.

concealment

stealth

ventriloquism

psychology

slight of hand

 

Take the age-old pulp trope of the young woman hiking up her skirt to summon a taxi - Is it a Summon (with gestures, naturally)? A Contact (nearest taxi driver)? A special effect of an Area Knowledge roll?

 

posing?

acting

[Sociotard]

Re: Presence power framework

 

I once had a "super presence" character who used an EGO Attack to simulate her ability to leave people quivering in a puddle of their own urine.

[Ice9]

Re: Presence power framework

 

In this case, PRE only for Presence Attacks is arguably less limited than PRE only to defend against them because you can choose when to make a Presence Attack, but not when you're going to be exposed to one yourself.

Actually, that sounds like the reverse. Presence Only for Defense is less limiting than Presence Only for Attacks because you can choose to never use Presence Attack, but you can't stop foes from using it on you. Also, there's the skill-boosting part of Presence, so theoretically each "usage" is only 1/3 of the total, but that can probably be ignored - people who wanted to be good at those skills wouldn't be buying Presence that didn't add to them.

 

So for +50 PRE bought as such we're looking at...33 points. Still cheap? At first blush, maybe. But then this character has only a PRE of 10 against the Presence Attacks of others

And this is different than someone who bought Mind Control how? I didn't say that buying all your Presence for attack only was the most effective idea, just the one most similar to using mental powers for similar purposes.

 

Given how powerful a PRE attack can be, I would even argue that PRE for attacks should only be -¼.

Presence Attacks are powerful because they are powerful, not because of a hypothetical limitation. Limited Power (Power Loses Less than 1/3 of its Effectiveness) is -1/4. Are you really saying that ability to defend against the admittedly powerful PRE attacks (plus skills, of course) is "Less than 1/3 of its Effectiveness"?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Presence Attacks are powerful because they are powerful' date=' not because of a hypothetical limitation. Limited Power (Power Loses Less than 1/3 of its Effectiveness) is -1/4. Are you really saying that ability to defend against the admittedly powerful PRE attacks (plus skills, of course) is "Less than 1/3 of its Effectiveness"?[/quote']

 

Yes, simply because high level PRE attacks are so powerful. The attack function for a hero with a really high PRE is a game-changer; sure the defense and skill boost are nice but when you can effectively take out an entire platoon of agents or even supers with a single 0 PHA, 0 END action, that is far and away more useful than just about anything else PRE can do (or almost any other power). For a moderate PRE this might not be the case, but if you are buying PRE specifically for attacks then your PRE isn't going to be mid-level is it?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Presence power framework

 

Mind Control 12d6, vs. PRE not EGO(probably actually a -1/4 limitation in most campaigns, because PRE is usually higher than EGO, though PRE defense is less common than mental defense, so perhaps it's a wash), AoE 4m radius, no range--75 active points, 43 or 50 real cost(?) would probably do a pretty nice job of simulating the effects of a powerful PRE attack--indeed, the possibility exists that it might be more lasting. A PRE attack is basically an AoE 32 m radius (i.e., combat map) MC vs. PRE or EGO, no range, single command/emotion. Sean Waters would no doubt still dislike that equation, but that's roughly how I see it.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Presence power framework

 

so how could I translate that to being usable communications media?

 

 

 

I was also thinking about building a

"fan base power"

some sort of spiritual transform with incantations over media

The intent of the incantation would be understandable.

They would reveal what the power does.

 

for example

A fan Base would have a common nick name like

muffins, monsters, freaks , posers or heroes

And part of the indoctrination of the transformation

would be the inclusion into the group.

If a person interacts with the group,

they are given the label.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Presence power framework