The Batman Option

[Steve]

On page 137 of the new Champions genre book, there is a discussion of mixing characters of different point totals and even different point and effectiveness ceilings. What caught my eye was in the last paragraph, comparing the difference in Total Points between the characters with the most points and those with the least. The difference is then made up by buying Heroic Action Points for the lower-total PCs, or what I'd like to call The Batman Option.

 

If someone wants to build a 700-point powerhouse but someone else wants to build a 300-point skill-based character, this idea of using HAPs to make up the point difference struck me as a great idea to mix characters of different point totals into a superteam.

 

Has anyone tried using this in a campaign?

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I discussed Haps but failed to assign points for my last game

 

so far

I'm allowing the points to be made for rerolls

 

 

http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_1343_1350&osCsid=b3e22f540222148e44d1184334a81226

[Checkmate]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I'm not sure what HAP's are, but it has been my experience that no one wants to be the Zandar to another player's Buffy.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I actually addressed the issue a different way in my current 6e campaign. No one pales in the shadow of the Mary Sue with the way I have it set up. May get around to getting the campaign set up in the blog function if I can every free up some time. Initial GM set up for my campaign structure requires a bit of paperwork but so far in game play it has worked out beautifully. It's all a matter of scale in the end.

 

~Rex

[Steve]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I'm not sure what HAP's are' date=' but it has been my experience that no one wants to be the Zandar to another player's Buffy.[/quote']

 

I believe HAPs were first introduced in Pulp Hero. Characters can use them to add to rolls or spend a set amount to have fortune favor them in some way. In my original example, you can have a 300-point skill-based superhero who has several hundred HAPs available to spend each session, increasing damage, turning misses into hits, and otherwise making a less physically powerful superhero into a credible threat. When I think of someone making every skill roll and having just the right bit of luck to turn the tide of a battle, I tend to think of Batman, hence I call this approach to character building The Batman Option.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

It's a good Option as well. I use HAPs in my set up.

 

~Rex

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Batman Option

 

Actually, my group is currently playing a Unisystem game with a similar setup. One character is a Hero/Chosen (Buffy Style) and has 5 times better physical stats, but has slightly less skills and only half the number of Drama Points (much like HAPs) as teh rest of the team. It works well in certain groups. We happen to playing with a very story oriented GM though, and we all play nice, so it works out. Not every campaign, even within this group, works this way.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I don't use HAPs; if characters want luck they can buy Luck.

 

However, here is my approach to running a campaign featuring the typical comic book JL / Avengers power level disparity:

 

Costumed Crimefighters Collective

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I toss out HAPs in two forms really. One, as a benefit, similar to Savage Worlds. It's Handy, and all critters like treas tossed to them. Also, I give them out Instead of XP sometimes, as an option (ie: "You can have, 3 XP, or 6 HAPS....). Real Luck, always trumps a HAP in my current set up, because I believe if you want to be Lucky you should pay for it. HAPS to me, are an "On Any Given Sunday...." sort of thing. Not real luck. They get burned up fast in my game to since it's scaled to full starting Super Hero level yet the PC's only have High End Heroic on their sheets. I've also found them useful in other ways, mostly as a "savior frame" (Only bikers will understand that...) for self inflicted stupidity. Keeps the booters (military folk will understand that term) alive.

 

~Rex

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I think this sounds like a neat option, but I'm not sure that you could make up a 400 point disparity between a cosmically powerful hero and what is essentially a skilled normal. When I am trying to mix hero types like that, typically the skill guy has lots of little abilities, gadgets, and powers that in sum put him on a more equal footing with the powerful mutants and such. For instance he will have Martial Arts, probably with a couple extra DC, and some kind of weapon to give him a few more dice of damage (possibly electrified or powered in some way), and then maybe a "critical hit" or "sharpshooter" ability that pushes his attacks into the same league as more powerful heroes. He will never match them in combat (he is just a skilled normal after all), but he can face the same villains without feeling useless. Plus, in noncombat situations, he shines.

 

And on an unrelated note, my OC brain insists I point out that Buffy's sidekick was not Zandar, but Xander (a version of Alexander).

[Escafarc]

Re: The Batman Option

 

This idea seems to rear it's head every so offen over the years. In my experience it rarely works out. It always reminds me of a really bad time I had with the first version of the Marvel Super-Hero Game. We had Thor, Siver Surfer, Dr. Strange, the female Captain Marvel, Black Widow, and I had the Shroud. Even with the Hero Pts the Widow and I sat on the sidelines the whole time.

In order to challenge the higher powered PCs put the two of us out of our league.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I'm actually playing, in a 6e game, the Non Super Powered, no real Super Gadgets either PC, in a game of all starting 400 point Super Heroes. Got normal Human Characteristic maxima on the guy, and he's built on the same points as everyone else. And he regularly smokes the entire party, who as I like to joke with the guys playing, are basically, the X-Avenger League Authority!.....

 

My guy is basically a blend of my personality, combined with equal portions of Evel Knievel, The Human Fly, Johnny Blaze (w/out Ghost Rider and Hellfire shotguns), and many more out of one various Motorcycle flick of the day from Hell Ride backwards.....so, vigilante motorcycle stunt hero with a lot of odd knowledge. He rules, and apparently his job is to save the rest of the party once a month or so when I get to play......Super Powered folks don't like it when the normal guy shows them up, heh.....

 

~Rex

[Doc Samson]

Re: The Batman Option

 

There were two posts that came up recently here or the general forum that really changed the way I look at this issue (for the better I think). If someone knows the posts please link them. In summary, my group is back to making character generation the same for all characters and letting the players work out the details.

 

1. The first was a small but effective debate about Batman and Superman being on the same team. The message I took away from the discussion is..."Why does everyone think Batman is less powerful or built on less points than Superman when Superman has lost every battle between the two?"

 

2. The other was on the "Hidden Archetype". The simple idea was that characters who stack game mechanics (like Batman) are often more powerful than archetypical characters and for less points.

 

For example: a 20 STR character with 10 pts. of Martial Arts, 4 DCs, and a 4d6 HA bought through a focus (i.e. a weapon) can hit as hard as a character that can lift 100 tons (60 STR) and for less points.

 

The same type of stacking works for Defenses (normal PD/ ED + Combat Reflexes + OIF Resitant Protection (i.e. armor)) and Combat Values (base OCV/ DCV + Skill Levels + Martial Maneuvers).

 

This type of character also could also be considered "non-powered" by SFX if the player so chooses.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

True, True....and I've always wondered why folks continually think that No Powers means less points. Then again, I always got that warm fuzzy feeling inside, when my guy I mentioned above, Lays out the Team's Mind Controlled by the badguy, Thor/Apollo/Colossus clone. Not all Super Heroes have to come with Super Powers.....

 

Now the Marvel Heroes one......1st Ed was pretty bad for leaving folks on the sidelines. Advanced cleaned that up a bit, and the Ultimate Power book generated more impressive spreads (Gone was Typical Man, Defender of the Typical!).......then again, that used to be my main gig in the schlepping for T$R days.......so as a Marvel GM, I was always really good, at making sure, that the guys like the Shroud got as much go time as the Thor Class folk......it was doable but rough in the first edition though.

 

~Rex

[Escafarc]

Re: The Batman Option

 

True, True....and I've always wondered why folks continually think that No Powers means less points. Then again, I always got that warm fuzzy feeling inside, when my guy I mentioned above, Lays out the Team's Mind Controlled by the badguy, Thor/Apollo/Colossus clone. Not all Super Heroes have to come with Super Powers.....

 

Now the Marvel Heroes one......1st Ed was pretty bad for leaving folks on the sidelines. Advanced cleaned that up a bit, and the Ultimate Power book generated more impressive spreads (Gone was Typical Man, Defender of the Typical!).......then again, that used to be my main gig in the schlepping for T$R days.......so as a Marvel GM, I was always really good, at making sure, that the guys like the Shroud got as much go time as the Thor Class folk......it was doable but rough in the first edition though.

 

~Rex

 

I agree with you that it can work. But even in your example above all the characters were built on the the same points. PCs bulit using different point totals just makes it that much harder to keep thing balanced.

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I don't believe the gadgetry should buy extra-damage classes

rather they should rig their way to an effective attack

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Batman Option

 

What?

[Squall]

Re: The Batman Option

 

1. The first was a small but effective debate about Batman and Superman being on the same team. The message I took away from the discussion is..."Why does everyone think Batman is less powerful or built on less points than Superman when Superman has lost every battle between the two?"

While I'm readily admitting that I haven't got enough experience with Champions to have valuable advice to offer as to the merits of running a game based on different point values...I'm enough of a DC fanboy that I just have to ask how many "every battle between the two" instance folks are trying to reference, here, particularly outside of Miller's DKR series (which isn't canon, and, in fact, isn't even really the same characters). I've got no real dog in this fight, as far as Superman versus Batman being built on near-equal points values are concerned (they've both done enough ridiculous fiat-driven stuff, all based on whose comic it is and who's writing it that month, that I'm fine with almost ANY points-value interpretation of either character), I'm just idly curious as to what fights people are referring to when they talk about Batman like he regularly kicks Superman's butt or something.

 

I can think of two times in recent publications that Superman and Batman have clashed. One was in a Batman comic (advantage: Bats, because it was his title) where Superman was under Poison Ivy's control, and it largely consisted of Batman scrambling away and trying not to die. The other was -- potential spoiler warning, I guess, even though it's several years old by now -- during the lead up to Infinite Crisis, in a Superman comic (advantage: Supes, because it was his title), where Superman was hallucinating, thought he was attacking Darkseid or someone, and was instead casually murdering Batman without even knowing he was there, while the entire Justice League was trying to stop him.

 

It's just the nitpicky comics fan in me wondering what other instances they're talking about, when folks reference Batman winning these kinds of fights. Please don't take it as me disagreeing with your general post -- particularly your second point, where you show quite ably that "normal" humans can still be quite effective with a few skills, martial arts, and powers -- but if you could toss up a link to the original post, or something like that, I'd appreciate it.

[Zeropoint]

Re: The Batman Option

 

You know, just because Batman isn't bulletproof and can't punch through a reinforced concrete wall, it DOES NOT follow that he's built on fewer points than the rest of the Justice League. I'd be willing to bet that a "proper" writeup of the Dark Night would require MORE points. He's got a HUGE list of skills, most of them at high levels. He's got a base, vehicles, followers, contacts. He's got martial arts skills and a gadget-based Variable Power Pool. He's the World's Greatest Detective.

 

Now, it does take a certain amount of intelligence and creativity to play a character like this effectively; it's much easier to play a brick or a blaster. If the GM creates adventures which are combat heavy, and doesn't allow for much flexibility, then most of the points spent on a Batman-style character would be wasted. I'd say that's a GM/campaign issue rather than a character problem, though.

[assault]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I'm actually playing' date=' in a 6e game, the Non Super Powered, no real Super Gadgets either PC, in a game of all starting 400 point Super Heroes. Got normal Human Characteristic maxima on the guy, and he's built on the same points as everyone else.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm glad it's working for you, but I would personally never allow a PC to take NCM in a superheroic game.

 

The problem is simple: most superhumans in the source material aren't smarter, faster, stronger or fitter than a normal human being trained to the same level. (That is, of course, unless the superhumans are super-smart, super-fast, super-strong or super-fit). So why should normal humans have to pay more points to match them?

 

The most critical issue in the game is Speed, of course. Usually the "normal" either ends up as the slowest member of the group, or else they pay a premium cost to stay competitive with everyone else. That is, of course, unless everyone is effectively restricted to NCM levels too, which hoses them instead...

[assault]

Re: The Batman Option

 

You know' date=' just because Batman isn't bulletproof and can't punch through a reinforced concrete wall, it DOES NOT follow that he's built on fewer points than the rest of the Justice League.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. He's a massive point sink.

 

On the other hand... the "rest of the Justice League" includes people like Green Arrow, Aquaman, Hawkman and the Atom. With Batman, that's half of the early/classic membership.

 

Batman is closer to the average power level of the Justice League than to the bottom!

[dmjalund]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I had considered starting all characters with NCM as a base where they can buy off parts of it if it fits the character

 

e.g. Speedster = NO NCM on SPD, DEX, DCV, Running (or Swimming)

Brick = No NCM on STR, CON, PD, ED or Leaping

Mentalist = No NCM on INT, EGO, DECV, OECV

 

people theoretically could buy more than one of the above (with GMs permission)

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

Well, I'm glad it's working for you, but I would personally never allow a PC to take NCM in a superheroic game.

 

The problem is simple: most superhumans in the source material aren't smarter, faster, stronger or fitter than a normal human being trained to the same level. (That is, of course, unless the superhumans are super-smart, super-fast, super-strong or super-fit). So why should normal humans have to pay more points to match them?

 

The most critical issue in the game is Speed, of course. Usually the "normal" either ends up as the slowest member of the group, or else they pay a premium cost to stay competitive with everyone else. That is, of course, unless everyone is effectively restricted to NCM levels too, which hoses instead...

 

It works well for him though. Without that point sink he would dominate the party completely, as it is he only dominates them about half the time.

 

~Rex

[Peregrine]

Re: The Batman Option

 

I had considered starting all characters with NCM as a base where they can buy off parts of it if it fits the character

 

e.g. Speedster = NO NCM on SPD, DEX, DCV, Running (or Swimming)

Brick = No NCM on STR, CON, PD, ED or Leaping

Mentalist = No NCM on INT, EGO, DECV, OECV

 

people theoretically could buy more than one of the above (with GMs permission)

 

IOW, use the toolkit to build D&D-style "character classes".

[RexMundi]

Re: The Batman Option

 

My current 6e Campain that I am running, is a full fledged Super Hero game, but, has NCM as a campaign benchmark. Rooted deeply in Pulp Styling along the lines of, oh, The Incognito comic would be a good example. The Bad Guy with the 40 Str....is absolutely TERRIFYING to the party. My games built along the ideas of, More Hugo Danner, more Wildcat, More Captain America, Less Superman, Less all Powerful Mutant of the Day......In about 3 more sessions I planned to post the outline and the characters plus the campaign rules......just not sure if I want to thread it or blog it.....Either way....NCM....has been the chief component of some amazingly well balanced PC's.

 

~Rex