Acheiving a re-roll function

[Doc Democracy]

There are a number of meta-game powers with in-game justifications in Savage Worlds. One of them is getting to re-roll an attack. It set me to thinking how to achieve it in HERO.

 

I was thinking of doing auto-fire limited to only one target and only one hit per target. That means I could accomplish with a few penalty skill levels (not sure if these still exist in 6th) the ability to try to hit several times before admitting defeat.

 

Thoughts? Alternatives?

 

 

Doc

[Chimera 12]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

The Advanced Player's Guide includes a few options for letting players use their characters' Luck to gain a number general-purpose re-rolls (either entire rolls or individual dice) or alternatively earn points that, much like HAPs, can be spent to add to or subtract from rolls throughout that session. A given re-roll that doesn't achieve a better result than the original may be repeated for free until a better result does come up.

 

This does still ultimately limit the number of re-rolls you can get per session, mind. If you're looking for something along the lines of a special attack that always lets you roll twice and use the better result, Luck may not be the way to model that. But as a sort of luck-in-battle power that simply lets you re-roll a few crucial attacks each session, a version of this with a suitable Limitation applied to the character's Luck strikes me as one way to go.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

How about making an attack with the trigger advantage? Not quite sure what limitation would be appropriate-no conscious control? Or maybe charges?

 

Just a thought.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

Heroic Action Points. 6E2 page 287, nice meta-gamey thing.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

Typical HERO response - lots of different ways to achieve the same end.

 

I suppose each of them would be slightly different in play and reflect different SFX quite readily.

 

Thanks for responding...

 

Doc

[Ragnarok]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

...I'm not sure it's what you're looking for, but in our current DC game we use a luck chit system. Every session, each of us draws a token from a bag. Depending on the color of the token, it does different things, like rerolling or moving the hit location defensively, then offensively, etc. It's use it or lose it, and the GM also draws chits for the opposing NPCs to keep things in line. It works pretty well.

 

I don't have the electronic version, but I'm sure Killer Shrike or Manic Typist could help you out.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

It was idle thinking Ragnarok. Am sitting at work waiting for the end of the day to come and things like this go through my head.

 

Also the forums feel slow (at least the parts I participate in) and I was hoping to drum up some business!

 

Doc

[etherio]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

It was idle thinking Ragnarok. Am sitting at work waiting for the end of the day to come and things like this go through my head.

 

Also the forums feel slow (at least the parts I participate in) and I was hoping to drum up some business!

 

Doc

 

I first read this as "...waiting for the end of days to come..."

 

Perhaps the name 'Ragnarok' preceding it colored my perception.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

That brought a smile to my face. It is a very Tolkeinesque phrase though isn't it? "Waiting for the end of days..."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

I've long used a couple of fan-created mechanics in my heroic-level games, for this purpose and more. Jesse Zwerling, on his pulp-era campaign website Thrilling True Tales, offered a mechanic he calls "Action Points!" allowing for automatic roll successes, maximum damage from attacks, and "dramatic editing" of in-game events. I found that last element to be dealt with a little superficially, though. So I expanded this area of Action Points! with the more detailed dramatic editing guidelines from Donald Doepke's Amazing Adventures campaign website, which adapts several rule elements from White Wolf's pulp RPG, Adventure! to Hero. The combination has added quite a bit to my games, and can be grafted onto normal Hero System mechanics without changing anything else.

 

I copied the relevant sections of Jesse and Donald's websites to a Document file, and since they were both offered for free on the Internet, I don't think those fine gentlemen will mind if I post that here:

[Lucius]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

How about making an attack with the trigger advantage? Not quite sure what limitation would be appropriate-no conscious control? Or maybe charges?

 

Just a thought.

 

Why would there be a Limitation?

 

I'd say +2 OCV Limited, only with "Cover" manuever.

 

and a Naked Trigger Advantage, trigger is "missing an attack roll when Covering."

 

Using the Cover manuever prevents you from spending END or Charges with whatever Attack you are using. The OCV might even have a Limitation that even though it's technically a Cover, you have to follow through if the attack actually hits.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Uncovering a palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

Why would there be a Limitation?

 

I'd say +2 OCV Limited, only with "Cover" manuever.

 

and a Naked Trigger Advantage, trigger is "missing an attack roll when Covering."

 

Using the Cover manuever prevents you from spending END or Charges with whatever Attack you are using. The OCV might even have a Limitation that even though it's technically a Cover, you have to follow through if the attack actually hits.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Uncovering a palindromedary

 

Quite honestly, I just threw it out. Not sure why I suggested the limitations. Between working third shift and three little kids, I'm happy if I'm able to responed to a question. Asking for it to be coherant is alittle much isn't ? ; )

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

Talent: REROLL, allows a reroll once per turn as +1 SPEED, only to reroll a failed roll before something happens (-1). If the failed roll costs END, END must be paid again to allow a reroll. Only when Serving the God's Purposes (-1/2) will only drop the cost of the reroll talent to 4 per +1 SPD. Only one reroll is allowed per character per phase.

I think this use of +SPD falls into the realm of house rules. What does the "Only when Serving the God's Purposes" limitation have to do with acheiving a re-roll function?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

I think this use of +SPD falls into the realm of house rules. What does the "Only when Serving the God's Purposes" limitation have to do with acheiving a re-roll function?

 

It provides the context for why Volcilord would allow the ability into his game. He could have indicated that, if you wanted to reduce the cost then you could do it by requiring the PC doit for a special purpose, like serving God.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

Talent: REROLL, allows a reroll once per turn as +1 SPEED, only to reroll a failed roll before something happens (-1). If the failed roll costs END, END must be paid again to allow a reroll. Only when Serving the God's Purposes (-1/2) will only drop the cost of the reroll talent to 4 per +1 SPD. Only one reroll is allowed per character per phase.

 

The way this is written (that is paid for) I think that you only get one reroll per turn (it is bought as an extra action per turn). To get an extra action per phase you would have to purchase the characters SPD in addition to his current SPD. Then you have bought the option of having twice as many rolls per turn.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

I was also thinking of a guaranteed success where you purchase +10 overall levels, usable once per adventure (I'm giving +5 for this) in an overall cost of 20 points. This can be invoked once during an adventure to achieve a successful roll.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Acheiving a re-roll function

 

I was also thinking of a guaranteed success where you purchase +10 overall levels' date=' usable once per adventure (I'm giving +5 for this) in an overall cost of 20 points. This can be invoked once during an adventure to achieve a successful roll.[/quote']

 

It's all house rule territory. It seems very expensive for one automatic success per adventure, although how long "an adventure" might be is subjective. It's one charge, with potentially a very long recovery period. I assume it can't be used if the task is impossible (what if penalties mean I need a -1 to succeed?), and you can't decide to use it after seeing the attempt failed (although, time permitting, you could attempt the task again and use it at that time).

 

I like the "bonus speed" approach. That would also be pretty expensive, say 40 AP for a 4 SPD character. I'd say a greater limit applies for "only to reroll a failed action", especially since many actions one could otherwise take have no failure chance (movement; take a recovery; shift levels from OCV to DCV; Dodge) and it's pretty common to have a 50/50 chance, or better, for those that do have a chance of failure. At a -1 limitation, it's 20 points. Even a -2 limitation costs 13. I'm not sure 13 is an unreasonably low cost to get a second roll when the first one fails.

 

Backing up to reason from effect, the effect of a reroll is a reduced probability of failure. If I have a 50% chance, then I have a 25% chance of blowing the first and second roll. +2 levels would mean I need a 12- rather than 10-, a 74.07% chance of success, almost identical possibility of failure.

 

if I need 11-, 2 levels means a 16.2% failure chance and a reroll is a 14.1% failure chance.

 

hmmm...sticking with 2 levels, if I need:

 

3- two levels means 95.4% failure; reroll means 99.1%

4- two levels means 90.7% failure; reroll means 96.3%

5- two levels means 83.8% failure; reroll means 91.0%

6- two levels means 74.1% failure; reroll means 82.3%

7- two levels means 62.5% failure; reroll means 70.2%

8- two levels means 50% failure; reroll means 54.9%

9- two levels means 37.5% failure; reroll means 39.1%

10- two levels means 25.9% failure; reroll means 25.0%

11- two levels means 16.2% failure; reroll means 14.1%

12- two levels means 9.2% failure; reroll means 6.7%

13- two levels means 4.6% failure; reroll means 2.6%

14- two levels means 3.4% failure; reroll means 0.9%

15- two levels means 1.4% failure; reroll means 0.2%

16- two levels means 1.4% failure; reroll means 0.03%

17- two levels means 1.4% failure; reroll means 0.002%

 

The spread between the two is pretty minor at all levels, although the odds vary more at the edges than in the center of the curve. Still, +2 overall levels, cannot improve result, only improve chance of success (call that -1/2; often, just succeeding is quite adequate) seems like it has a similar mechanical effect (decreasing the probability of failing the roll). What's that in 6e? 12 points x 2 levels /1.5 = 16. That's about the same as the "double speed" approach with a -2 limitation and a 5 SPD.

 

The levels aren't precisely the same mechanically, of course, but it seems reasonable to price the ability similar to the price of achieving a similar result in another mechanical way, so I suggest 1 reroll per phase could reasonably be priced at 16 points.