ET Stay Home

[tkdguy]

Aliens may or may not exist. If they do, should we make contact with them?

 

Stephen Hawking says no.

[dmjalund]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

He's just afraid he'll meet someone smarter than him

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

I read the article -- what a joke. The idea of 'aliens looting the cosmos for resources' didn't work in the original 'V' mini-series, and it's just as lame now.

 

I agree however, that alien contact could go very badly for us, as pointed out in The Killing Star:

 

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

 

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

 

2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

 

3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

 

We're better off alone in the cosmos. And for the exact same reasons, any alien species will consider themselves better off alone in the cosmos. Last species standing gets the Universe all to themselves.

[Rapier]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Unfortunately, I can't say I disagree. I think it might be very safe to assume that any alien encounter would involve the aliens having better technology than us, after all we can't leave yet leave the orbit of our planet (including that of the moon) with a manned ship. The aliens, by virtue of getting here, can leave their solar system.

 

Look at what the Dutch did to Africans, the Spanish did to the Aztecs or early settlers did to Native Americans. He who has the best technology subjugates/destroys/enslaves/wins.

[dmjalund]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

I will add this to the debate. There is very little resource-wise you can find on earth that you can't find and extract very easily from asteroids and moons.

 

the only exception is life related. The odds are that our biology will differ in crucial ways from theirs making our biology less than valuable for anything other than curiosity value. So as far as I can see, the only reason they would come here is to observe/interact with us.

 

(maybe that's why they're not here - we are just not that intersting)

[BobGreenwade]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Of course this all assumes that the ETs have not developed socially beyond the "us versus them" mentality, into the level of "us plus you."

[Cancer]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Well, we haven't seen them yet by their radio emissions or by the gamma-ray emissions of fusion-rocket or antimatter-rocket driven starships.

[RexMundi]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

That's because they took one look at us squabbling over which edition of HERO is superior and said...."Whoa.....those guys are Nuts! *Interdict and Blockade mode....*"

 

~Rex

[L. Marcus]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

... What book was it, where humans were considered some kind of combat monster because we have adrenalin?

[Cancer]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

I have been profoundly surprised before, but I don't think we'll find life that is clearly of non-Earth origin in my lifetime (and for those of you counting days, the over-under for that is 7/11/2031)*. We have enough data now to eliminate the "N is large" (referring to the N in the Drake equation) scenario. There is no longer any efficient but as yet untried search strategy; the brilliant idea of SETI@Home "parasitic" radio surveys has pretty much done it. It is quite possible to search deeper and better, but not in a way that's going to improve your examination of parameter space by several orders of magnitude in three to five years the way S@A did. A dedicated radio telescope array on the lunar far side is probably the installation that can help most at this point, and I don't expect full-time human residency on the Moon before 2050 now.

 

*OTOH, I am not going to bet more than beer on it either way.

[RexMundi]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

... What book was it' date=' where humans were considered some kind of combat monster because we have adrenalin?[/quote']

 

That sounds familiar, can't place it though. There is a Novel my W. Michael Gear though called StarStrike, that is pretty much the scenario I mentioned. Great read. Much like a few other people though, I don't expect to see a discovery of Intelligent Alien Life in my lifetime. maybe some evidence if we could have gotten a dedicated Large Array on the moons dark side or such, or other locations, but not now.....be lucky if we can get back into LEO on our own bus ticket at this rate.....

 

~Rex

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Isn't this all a tetch ...paranoid? It's not impossibly crazy to imagine meeting aliens and having mutually beneficial economic relations with them. It's even happened once or twice on Earth.

I'd pull up some historical precedents, but I need to get going with exterminating the Apoustopodolisses next door for their real estate.

[RexMundi]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Sure it's Paranoid, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and using the "On Earth Example", I bet there are more examples of Exterminate or Transloacte, then shake hands and live peaceable ever after while standing on someones Else's lawn.....For the most part, Folks that are different, Do Not Get along, so since we know THAT, now you ramp it up to ALIEN......REALLY not getting along just seems logical.

 

~Rex

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Of course this all assumes that the ETs have not developed socially beyond the "us versus them" mentality' date=' into the level of "us plus you."[/quote']

 

If they're enlightened enough to still be alive, they won't take chances on a newly encountered species being as 'peaceful' as they are. One mistake and they're toast. No species survives by betting its own survival on the kindness of complete strangers.

[McCoy]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

I have been profoundly surprised before, but I don't think we'll find life that is clearly of non-Earth origin in my lifetime (and for those of you counting days, the over-under for that is 7/11/2031)*. We have enough data now to eliminate the "N is large" (referring to the N in the Drake equation) scenario. There is no longer any efficient but as yet untried search strategy; the brilliant idea of SETI@Home "parasitic" radio surveys has pretty much done it. It is quite possible to search deeper and better, but not in a way that's going to improve your examination of parameter space by several orders of magnitude in three to five years the way S@A did. A dedicated radio telescope array on the lunar far side is probably the installation that can help most at this point, and I don't expect full-time human residency on the Moon before 2050 now.

 

*OTOH, I am not going to bet more than beer on it either way.

Humm, if you had said intelligent/tech using life, I would agree with you. I'm not ready to give up on Mars, Titan, or Europa yet.

 

Still, what are the odds of getting something there to look for microbes in the next 21 years? About the same as ET coming to call?

[McCoy]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

It's even happened once or twice on Earth.

Let's see, Marco Polo opening the Orient to Europeans and -- what's the other one?

[RexMundi]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Seriously, I've always thought that the entire "Well they evolved PAST silly things like War and Domination/Extermination......." was one of the silliest bits of hippie wishful thinking ever. We've only got one comparative baseline to look at. Us. And "Us" really isn't that friendly. Like the Movie said...."We come in Peace..." *ZZOOOOOTTTT!!!* *Lots of screaming and chasing*....

 

~Rex

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Y'all worry too much.

Now, where can I hide around here? Old Greek ladies are way tougher than they look!

[Chimera 12]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

While I don't know what any aliens' reaction to us might be any better than the next person (and yeah, if life on Earth is any example, there's not much reason to be too optimistic), I'm not sure that the alternative of sticking our heads into the sand and hoping nobody out there sees us is particularly feasible, either. It's not like space will just go away if we ignore it, and anything with the technology to get here within an interesting timeframe probably has the technology to discover us whether we actively try to make contact with it or not.

[Cancer]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Humm, if you had said intelligent/tech using life, I would agree with you. I'm not ready to give up on Mars, Titan, or Europa yet.

 

Still, what are the odds of getting something there to look for microbes in the next 21 years? About the same as ET coming to call?

 

There's some chance of getting samples from Mars. (The outer planets' satellites ... not in 20 years, I'm afraid.) I suspect, however, that because we know there has been transport of material from Mars to Earth (and I expect from Earth to Mars) over the history of the Solar System, that when we find signs of biology on Mars it will be very hard to tell it from exotic forms of terrestrial life.

 

The furor raised by ALH84001 was thrilling, but at the end of the day the consensus is that the microstructures in that Martian meteorite aren't biological in origin, but we might get another sample that had some. Even absent bacterial fossils, ALH84001 is an amazing rock, ~3.5 Gyr old with undoubtable signs of hot water seepage and mineral deposits? And that from Mars? Even if it were of Earth origin, that'd be a remarkable mineral specimen.

 

Between the terrestrial planets, I think it's possible they infected each other early on. That seriously complicates the question of detecting life that is indigenous to Mars and being sure it's not of Earth origin, unless you take a full analytical biochemical lab there, complete with human staff. And since I don't think we'll have humans on Mars in 21 years, that sort of closes out that possibility, too.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

While I don't know what any aliens' reaction to us might be any better than the next person (and yeah' date=' if life on Earth is any example, there's not much reason to be [i']too[/i] optimistic), I'm not sure that the alternative of sticking our heads into the sand and hoping nobody out there sees us is particularly feasible, either. It's not like space will just go away if we ignore it, and anything with the technology to get here within an interesting timeframe probably has the technology to discover us whether we actively try to make contact with it or not.

 

We don't necessarily need to 'stick our heads in the sand'. But sending signals into space and deliberately shouting 'here we are' might turn out to be counter-productive in the long run. We still don't know why we haven't detected any signals from other, more advanced civilizations. It's possible the answer is: because they know better.

[Badger]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

I will add this to the debate. There is very little resource-wise you can find on earth that you can't find and extract very easily from asteroids and moons.

 

the only exception is life related. The odds are that our biology will differ in crucial ways from theirs making our biology less than valuable for anything other than curiosity value. So as far as I can see, the only reason they would come here is to observe/interact with us.

 

(maybe that's why they're not here - we are just not that intersting)

 

Observe still covers a lot of things. Being a lab rat might be worse than being exterminated in many ways.

[Badger]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

That's because they took one look at us squabbling over which edition of HERO is superior and said...."Whoa.....those guys are Nuts! *Interdict and Blockade mode....*"

 

~Rex

 

5th ed. by the way. *runs*

[Badger]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Sure it's Paranoid, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and using the "On Earth Example", I bet there are more examples of Exterminate or Transloacte, then shake hands and live peaceable ever after while standing on someones Else's lawn.....For the most part, Folks that are different, Do Not Get along, so since we know THAT, now you ramp it up to ALIEN......REALLY not getting along just seems logical.

 

~Rex

 

and we also have cases of "peace now, but when things go bad, we need more land, sucks to be you"

[tkdguy]

Re: ET Stay Home

 

Maybe the aliens are purposely staying away after they first studied us.

 

 

Edit: Here's another take, with parts of the dialogue not in the other one.