Supers vs. Military

[Clonus]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that there's a whole other axis along which the Marvel Universe is unrealistic: everything happens in New York. In a "real" Marvel Universe' date=' there would be counterparts to the Avengers or FF in Manchester, Munich, Milan, Cairo... And if the pace of events is equally frenetic, there would be a world-shattering crossover event every week, never mind every summer, and your gossipy friend would tell you that the world almost ended three times [i']yesterday[/i]. "

 

Well, in a "real" Marvel Universe, the odds of the Doctor Strange/ The Defenders, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, The X-Men, the New Mutants, The Young Avengers, and other teams who name escapes me all having operated out of New York State is low. In a more realistic version, the Sorcerer Supreme and allies he might gather might operate out of London (or Tibet), the Fantastic Four would have long since realized that it would be a good idea to base themselves somewhere, where Reed's mistakes wouldn't occur inside one of the worlds greatest metropolises, and Xavier's Academy would be in Oregon or something.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Well' date=' in a "real" Marvel Universe, the odds of the Doctor Strange/ The Defenders, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, The X-Men, the New Mutants, The Young Avengers, and other teams who name escapes me all having operated out of New York State is low. In a more realistic version, the Sorcerer Supreme and allies he might gather might operate out of London (or Tibet), the Fantastic Four would have long since realized that it would be a good idea to base themselves somewhere, where Reed's mistakes wouldn't occur inside one of the worlds greatest metropolises, and Xavier's Academy would be in Oregon or something.[/quote']

true the original writer's unfamiliarity with cities not the big apple is what you have to thank for that,later when writer familiar with other cities came abord this problem was somewhat alliviated

[Wanderer]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

In my opinion and experience, it is very much in genre to make high-power supers army-beaters, one or a small team of them easily able to crush conventional armies and effectively immune to their weapons, while remaining quite vulnerable to other supers of comparable powers. While there is not a simple way of accomplishing the former objective, and it needs to be done by carefully tinkering with the AP and Advantages of Attack Powers, or the GM accepting to tinker with world rules to make inanimate objects more fragile to super attacks than superhumans, the latter can be easily and effectively accomplished by giving such supers the following power, without having to buy obscene and unbalancing amounts of defense powers:

 

Invulnerable to Normal Weapons: Desolidification (affected by all attacks other than mundane real weaponry), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Mundane Real Weaponry (-1)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Or you can give the military vehicles a 2x vulnerability to superpowers, and give all superhumans half reduction vs. mundane weapons as an "every super" ability. With that, every super-powered brick or energy projector or martial artist has the capacity to do body damage to tanks, and is much more resilient against their attacks. If the half reduction isn't getting the job done, you can either up it to 75%, or keep it at 50% and throw in 6-12 levels of damage negation.

If you really want to make supers "super", make normals take 2x effect from superpowers as well(though you have to be really careful how this is done, so the heroes don't start splattering bank robbers against the walls), with "heroic" level normals taking 1.5x effect. And give the heroes half reduction vs. attacks by normals and 25% vs. attacks by heroic normals. That's if you want to have clear and unambiguous demarcation lines, or clearly separated tiers of power. Piggybacking on the power-armor thread, perhaps power armor in the hands of normals is somehow less effective, too.

[Utech]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Forgive me if this was addressed earlier in the thread, but I'm wondering why governments would bother with tanks and airplanes and all that at all. It seems much simpler to have a military composed of superhuman special forces who handle invasions and hot spots to be followed (if so desired) by lots and lots of normals trained to handle peacekeeping and reconstruction.

 

Why invest all that time and money into building aircraft carriers if Superman (or similar) can sink it at will?

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

if memory serves it was stated that the supers who'd inlist would has powers and abilties unfit for combat asignments

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Forgive me if this was addressed earlier in the thread, but I'm wondering why governments would bother with tanks and airplanes and all that at all. It seems much simpler to have a military composed of superhuman special forces who handle invasions and hot spots to be followed (if so desired) by lots and lots of normals trained to handle peacekeeping and reconstruction.

 

Why invest all that time and money into building aircraft carriers if Superman (or similar) can sink it at will?

 

Again, this is a suspension of disbelief thing. Imagine there are about 10,000 superhumans of significant power(40+ active points, 300+ total points) on the whole planet. Imagine at least 1000 law-abiding superhumans reside in the US. If one superhuman can do the job of 100 cops or 100 soldiers, why not pay them 100x as much to do that job for you? If you could pay a criminally-inclined supervillain to NOT commit crimes, and instead to do some kind of part-time work that benefits society, and more than half of them would be willing to forgo bank-robbing etc. in exchange for a hefty payday, how much would that be worth? Suppose, of those 1000, you had 250 enlisted in the military/federal govt., with another 250 enlisted by the states(as a sort of superhuman national guard), 250 employed by local city governments, and the remaining 250 work in the private sector or as "indie" crimefighters. 500 superhumans might be as effective as a million soldiers--heck, they might be more effective, because they can concentrate their firepower more carefully, are far more mobile, and tend to be very durable and resilient.

 

But if you did that, you begin to remove the "human element" from the equation. Think of the exchange between Ursa and Zod in Superman II: "He cares for them...Like pets." Normals become the superheroes' pets and the supervillains' toys(some of them playing more roughly with their toys than others). Humans would break down into a few camps: those who regard supers as akin to gods(and treat them with awe, admiration and even sycophantic submissiveness); those who regard them as arrogant and dangerous; and those who regard them with a mix of awe/admiration/sycophancy and resentment/fear/suspicion. The first group would form fan clubs, turn into groupies or even start cults; the second would start political movements, form secret societies and even potentially perpetrate terrorism against supers; the third would probably be influenced according to whatever the trend in the news was.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

true the original writer's unfamiliarity with cities not the big apple is what you have to thank for that' date='later when writer familiar with other cities came abord this problem was somewhat alliviated[/quote']

 

You can tell superhero comics were invented by New Yorkers, they think swinging from building to building is a good way to get around town.

(not original with me)

Having lived in Los Angeles, San Diego, and visited New York and Chicago, I can say that only in New York can you go anywhere swinging building to building.

In Los Angeles, I suppose you could go from downtown down Wilshire Blvd to West LA, but that's about it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

You can tell superhero comics were invented by New Yorkers, they think swinging from building to building is a good way to get around town.

(not original with me)

Having lived in Los Angeles, San Diego, and visited New York and Chicago, I can say that only in New York can you go anywhere swinging building to building.

In Los Angeles, I suppose you could go from downtown down Wilshire Blvd to West LA, but that's about it.

 

There was a Spidey comic once where he was outside of NYC, and he made this very observation.

[Clonus]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Forgive me if this was addressed earlier in the thread, but I'm wondering why governments would bother with tanks and airplanes and all that at all. It seems much simpler to have a military composed of superhuman special forces who handle invasions and hot spots to be followed (if so desired) by lots and lots of normals trained to handle peacekeeping and reconstruction.

 

Why invest all that time and money into building aircraft carriers if Superman (or similar) can sink it at will?

 

Well first of all, even in the DC universe, Superman equivalents aren't that common. And they're so very powerful that nations have no real control over them. At best, they can ask Ultraguy for favours. Governments kind of like people they can give orders to. There's also the problem of sphere of control. Which is to say, it's difficult to deploy a single individual, no matter how powerful, so that he can be more or less continuously watching, say, the entire Arabian ocean. Superman himself has nigh-omniscience but he's virtually unique on that score even in his universe (most characters in his weight class who are non-Kryptonian don't have the enhanced senses to match their punch), and quite frankly he has better things to do than watch an ocean 24/7. Even someone like that who was fully under Presidential authority would be better deployed patrolling space for alien invaders and large asteroids on collision courses with Earth when he wasn't being called on to defeat rampaging monsters from the deep and bald-headed attitudinally-challenged scientists. An aircraft carrier doesn't have something better to do because that's pretty much all it can do.

[Utech]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

An aircraft carrier doesn't have something better to do because that's pretty much all it can do.

OK. But the money spent on an aircraft carrier could sure do a whole lot more good somewhere else. If it's just a matter of watching things, you don't need aircraft carriers. Or tanks. Or lots of other military black holes.

[Utech]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Again' date=' this is a suspension of disbelief thing.[/quote']

Fair enough. I'm all for suspending disbelief.

 

But this thread doesn't seem (to me) to be about that. Many posts seem to be considering seriously how superfolks would actually interact with the military as we know it. My point was that they probably wouldn't.

 

If the thread is just about suspending disbelief, I'm cool with that and over and out.

[Prestige]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Forgive me if this was addressed earlier in the thread, but I'm wondering why governments would bother with tanks and airplanes and all that at all. It seems much simpler to have a military composed of superhuman special forces who handle invasions and hot spots to be followed (if so desired) by lots and lots of normals trained to handle peacekeeping and reconstruction.

 

Why invest all that time and money into building aircraft carriers if Superman (or similar) can sink it at will?

 

The same reason we still have normal infantry...destroyers...etc. A super being...even one such as Superman can't not win a war single handly. I mean criminals get away with thing under his watch...now you expect him to defeat a wide spread organized attack by himself? Plus not to mention the fact...he is not part of the military.

 

Personaly I think every military would develope tactic and technologies to deal with super humens...not so much to deal with the home grown guys who fight crime but to deal with enemy foriegn power super beings. They almost have to.

[Yansuf]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Forgive me if this was addressed earlier in the thread, but I'm wondering why governments would bother with tanks and airplanes and all that at all. It seems much simpler to have a military composed of superhuman special forces who handle invasions and hot spots to be followed (if so desired) by lots and lots of normals trained to handle peacekeeping and reconstruction.

 

Why invest all that time and money into building aircraft carriers if Superman (or similar) can sink it at will?

 

That was the main question in the original "Armor Wars" thread.

[Utech]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

A super being...even one such as Superman can't not win a war single handly.

Superheroes don't seem to have much trouble handling invasions from other worlds and other dimensions without the aid of aircraft carriers, tanks, destroyers, nukes, etc. These invasions feature advanced alien technologies that put our conventional forces to shame and/or supernatural abilities far beyond the ken of our best military science. Why would superheroes have trouble handling an invasion from a conventional military?

[Prestige]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Superheroes don't seem to have much trouble handling invasions from other worlds and other dimensions without the aid of aircraft carriers' date=' tanks, destroyers, nukes, etc. These invasions feature advanced alien technologies that put our conventional forces to shame and/or supernatural abilities far beyond the ken of our best military science. Why would superheroes have trouble handling an invasion from a conventional military?[/quote']

 

Actualy not entirely true I remember vaguely some invasions you do see the military units in action. Mostly in the background. It has been awhile since I last read a comic. Though do remember a comic focus on the main character...so you see such a small side of the conflict.

[Clonus]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Superheroes don't seem to have much trouble handling invasions from other worlds and other dimensions without the aid of aircraft carriers' date=' tanks, destroyers, nukes, etc. These invasions feature advanced alien technologies that put our conventional forces to shame and/or supernatural abilities far beyond the ken of our best military science. Why would superheroes have trouble handling an invasion from a conventional military?[/quote']

 

Hunh? I'm not sure what alien invasions you are thinking of. Unless the attack force is quite small, or is equipped with the kind of convenient achilles heel that lets you mess up one computer and incapacitate everything, I see them having a lot of trouble with alien invasions.

[Utech]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Hunh? I'm not sure what alien invasions you are thinking of. Unless the attack force is quite small' date=' or is equipped with the kind of convenient achilles heel that lets you mess up one computer and incapacitate everything, I see them having a lot of trouble with alien invasions.[/quote']

Guess we've read different comics. I haven't read any in quite some time now, but I definitely remember alien and/or transdimensional invasions in X titles, Avengers, Rom, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, etc. The attacking forces were often immensely powerful and vast in number. The supers always pulled things out in the end and I don't remember them needing help from the military.

 

Having an Achilles heel is standard comic book stuff. As true for invading alien forces as it is for Superman, Wolverine, Batman, etc. Naturally it was a part of these comics.

 

I apologize for my hyperbolic statement that "Superheroes don't seem to have much trouble handling invasions form other worlds and other dimensions". That was clearly an exaggeration. The superheroes definitely had a hard time -- thus conflict, excitement, story... On the other hand, I really don't remember them needing aircraft carriers, tanks, destroyers, nukes, etc. Clearly others have different memories. Probably reading different comics.

[Clonus]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

 

Having an Achilles heel is standard comic book stuff. As true for invading alien forces as it is for Superman, Wolverine, Batman, etc. Naturally it was a part of these comics.cs.

 

But it usually isn't part of a modern conventional military force. Although I did come up with a timeline for X-Wives which included an aborted World War II because Paragon just flew into German and grabbed Hitler. That worked because his generals were pretty lukewarm anyway.

[Prestige]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Guess we've read different comics. I haven't read any in quite some time now, but I definitely remember alien and/or transdimensional invasions in X titles, Avengers, Rom, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, etc. The attacking forces were often immensely powerful and vast in number. The supers always pulled things out in the end and I don't remember them needing help from the military.

 

Having an Achilles heel is standard comic book stuff. As true for invading alien forces as it is for Superman, Wolverine, Batman, etc. Naturally it was a part of these comics.

 

I apologize for my hyperbolic statement that "Superheroes don't seem to have much trouble handling invasions form other worlds and other dimensions". That was clearly an exaggeration. The superheroes definitely had a hard time -- thus conflict, excitement, story... On the other hand, I really don't remember them needing aircraft carriers, tanks, destroyers, nukes, etc. Clearly others have different memories. Probably reading different comics.

 

Actualy I read alot of the same titles you did...and I remember seeing the military force fighting in some of the backgrounds...but then again it will of course focus on the super heroes actions.

 

I mean the title is the X-Men not Army. Though I would consider that a weakness in the story.

[OddHat]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

There are times when the most powerful Heroes or Villains are written as being completely immune to the most powerful conventional forces, throwing moons and planets around, and other times when a good smack on the back of the head will knock out the same characters.

 

It's a matter of what you want in your campaigns, and what you like in your comics.

 

Personally, in my campaigns, the military includes Super Soldiers. These aren't the most powerful Supers in the setting, but they're powerful enough. The vast majority of NPC Supers can't stand up to military forces on the battlefield, but a few of the most powerful can. Most Giant Monsters can be driven off or killed by the military, but a very small number of the most powerful are immune to anything short of a Nuke, and one or two would survive that.

 

The PCs, depending on the campaign, might range anywhere from guys in masks who have to worry about being shot up to top end Silver Age Cosmic Heroes who can fly into the heart of the Sun and emerge unharmed. The top end Supers in top end games are meant to be more powerful than any non-Supers they might face; as a GM, I let them be.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Almost all Champions campaigns are modeled more towards the 1960's Marvel Heroes. They had to fight and defeat their foes; but which of them could really defeat an army?

 

The Hulk, routinely. Thor, easily. The Fantastic Four, with a little more difficulty and coordination. Iron Man, with about the same ease that he takes out tanks in the current movies. Spider-Man, not so much.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Also' date=' even in the comics, there are only so many people who command that level of power. For every Superman or Thor, there are dozens of Green Arrows and Spider-Men. I admit that DC is a little over the top. Everyone of any consequence has access to 60+ points of STR on top of whatever else they can do, but still most of them would not be able to deal with a light infantry platoon single handedly, much less a mechanized formation. [/quote']

 

Actually, don't discount Green Arrow. He used to carry around a nuclear warhead arrow, after all.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Dr. Strange did something similar during his first decade' date=' except it involved memory-wiping [b']the entire planet.[/b] Actually, it might be kinda fun to play around with that conceit, where you have a campaign setting with a long back story, and there were a number of instances where reality was altered/Dr. Destroyer temporarily mind-controlled the whole planet for, oh, weeks(this one is actually "canon" in the CU, at least the 5th ed. version)/etc. What sort of odd side-effects might all that mind-frackery lead to?

 

Oh, you can have a whole campaign where the PCs start off thinking they're the first superheroes ever, but eventually find out there's a rich superhero history going back decades or even centuries, until somebody accomplished a nice big mindwipe however long ago.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

The contractors who build the carrier and the congresscritters who got the appropriations for building it in their state would probably not agree. ;-) Sometimes the weapons that get built have very little to do with what will be most useful.