Supers vs. Military

[Yansuf]

In the thread "Armor Wars" I posted the following:

 

"Obviously the real reason that armies don't have lots of power armored troops in comics (and the Champions Universe) is to keep the basic world from changing too much. But is it really totally unreasonable?

Let's talk Champions rather than DC or Marvel comics.

The Ultimate Vehicle gives the main gun of the Abrams tank 8d6RKA with various advantages; realisticly for the Sabot Armor Piercing round the +1/4 "partially indirect" should be +1/4 Armor Piercing.

Even without the armor piercing, the average damage for this weapon is 28 body and 84 stun (it has a +1 stun multiplier); this would not only KO Defender, it would leave him with negative body! With the armor piercing it would kill him.

Hardpoint would also be KO'd and requiring hospitalization after one hit, with the AP he would be in critical condition.

Armadillo would be in slightly better shape, but still at minus 18 stun and with 8 of his 15 body gone; with AP it would be minus 31 stun and negative 3 body.

The Abrams own armor, from the front, would "bounce" the average hit from its own cannon, even with the AP round. None of the three powered armor characters above have a weapon nearly as powerful as the Abrams main gun. In fact, none of them could penetrate the Abrams frontal armor even with a roll of ALL 6's!

Now I have the impression that the 3 power armor suits mentioned above are considerably better than any mass produced armor in the Champions universe. (If not, these three characters are NOT really powerful super-heroes and super-villains.) So any mass produced armor, even though still very expensive, would be SIGNIFICANTLY less capable.

In fact the most unreasonable position is that powered armor characters can defeat major military forces!

Using Champions rules, very few if any powered armor characters have a good chance of surviving a fight with conventional military "heavy" forces (much less winning), except in a city or other place where the military cannot bring its heavy firepower to bear without massive collateral damage. (I don't have Dr. Destroyer's specs at hand, but even Mechanon would be stunned by an average roll from one hit from the Abrams cannon, and 3 in close enough succession that he doesn't get a recovery between them would KO him.)

Personally, I have always taken the position that really powerful "weird science" items are devises (yes, spelled without a c) rather than gadgets (or devices), to use the terminology of Whately Academy. Otherwise the question of why similar but less powerful items are not in widespread use crops up all over!"

 

Markdoc replied:

"These are all good points - but it should be noted that these boards are peppered with complaints that because heroes can't trash regular military forces with near-impunity it's "not like the comics" - which is true, but IMO, a very smart design decision."

 

So lets talk about this.

 

It is true in some comics the major super-heroes and/or super-villains can defeat military forces in open field battle, but the characters that can do this are for all practical purposes too powerful to play in almost any Champions game.

 

Silver age Superman can survive inside a star, and is not even stunned by a direct hit from a (large) H-Bomb! Unless they can get kryptonite shells, no Earth army can stand against him.

But what kind of adventures did he have in the comics? Combat was not significant in them. He had to think up a way to stop the evil plot or whatever, he didn't fight the villain. (In general, almost none of his enemies had any chance of beating Superman in a fight.)

While I have seen some Champions campaigns where solving puzzles and mysteries, etc. is a major theme, I have never seen one where straight up combat was not also significant; and in most campaigns everything really revolves around the fights.

The unstoppable silver age Superman isn't a viable character in any Champions campaign I have seen except POSSIBLY a few VERY High powered ones.

A few years ago I played in a campaign with 1000 to 1250 point characters. (it was set in the future, with much SF technology.) Even so, I do not think that silver age Superman could be made on 1250 points. What level of rPD/rED is required to survive a direct hit from an H-bomb?

How many dice does his heat vision need to be able to melt a multi-ton mass of steel in a few seconds? Etc.

 

Almost all Champions campaigns are modeled more towards the 1960's Marvel Heroes. They had to fight and defeat their foes; but which of them could really defeat an army?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

I think the introduction of Damage Negation and setting appropriate levels of what exactly are the limits of mundane damage would go a long way to replicating many of the comic book aspects people expect.

 

That being said, Defender is a 350pt character, IMO he should get his @ss handed to him by a direct hit from a M1A1 120mm cannon.

 

TB

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Actually, if you read old Iron Man, Hulk, Thor and Sub-Mariner stories, they were routinely trashing military hardware, including tanks, cannon and sometimes jets.

 

An H-Bomb--both the extended version, and the quick and dirty version--does about 20d6 KA, which would require around 60-80 rDEF to survive--that's in the ballpark of a 120-160 active point game. If you figure Supes is trying to melt, say, a vault door(16 DEF, 9 Body), somewhere in the ballpark of 5d+1KA, AP, or at most 10d6 KA(6th ed version?) is necessary to do the trick--again in the ballpark of 120-150+ active points.

According to the Ultimate Brick, planet-moving can be done with half the necessary STR to lift a planet, so long as the hero has a suitable pushing point, and some means of movement. So maybe Supes could have a 180 STR and still be capable of moving planets, if he pushes and uses his superflight to help him along.

I don't know how many points it would take to come up with a respectable Superman "clone" in Champions, but my guess is 1500 or more, basing it on around 150-200 active point powers, with stats scaled accordingly.

[wick]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

double post

[wick]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Supes is broken. Especially in his last movie. "So he is picking up an island of kryptonite and flying it into outerspace....wow that stuff really kicks his butt *sarcasm*" And his nemisis is just a normal human..wow. That is like watching a Professional wrestler beat up a 6 year old.

[torchwolf]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

I think it was more early Bronze Age that began to consider semi-realistic weaponry versus superpowers.

 

In any case, what would the question be:

1) Should a superhero campaign attempt to model comics reality or not?

or 2) Should superpowered characters exceed real-life weaponry and armor in destructiveness and protection?

or 3) Should characters or real-life capabilities be adjusted?

or 4) something else?

 

Any of those could be addressed, but answers would be different (many threads on this) and YMMV.

 

I think the introduction of Damage Negation and setting appropriate levels of what exactly are the limits of mundane damage would go a long way to replicating many of the comic book aspects people expect.

I agree, Damage Negation is pretty much perfect for simulating limited, up to full, invulnerability.

 

Supes is broken. Especially in his last movie. "So he is picking up an island of kryptonite and flying it into outerspace....wow that stuff really kicks his butt *sarcasm*" And his nemisis is just a normal human..wow. That is like watching a Professional wrestler beat up a 6 year old.

That very movie is seriously broken in so many ways, plus excruciatingly long.

[Squall]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

The problem with trying to model comic book reality is that...well...comic book reality varies wildly, and not even Age to Age, or even month to month, but just title to title. Writers are far from consistent, even with the same character(s). So many of them power their characters to exactly the level the plot needs, there's very little you can do to mimic "comics" just right. Sometimes Batman holds his own against Karate Kid, sometimes Batman gets whacked in the head by one of Penguin's lame umbrellas. Sometimes Wolverine heals himself from a few scraps of meat left on a skeleton (in just a few panels), sometimes he flounders and struggles against a large number of mundane ninja.

 

Individual issue? Individual story arc? Sure, maybe. I'm all for grabbing Winter Soldier or Batman: Year One as a stand alone, and trying to settle down to make a character. But when you try to do the same thing with all of Cap or Batman's history -- including crossovers and team titles where their power level fluctuates even more as they suddenly hang with guys like Thor and Superman -- is when it gets pretty teeth-gnashingly impossible.

 

Better to stick to a single example of a character you like, one good fight scene, a few specific feats or fights, IMHO.

[Yansuf]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Actually, if you read old Iron Man, Hulk, Thor and Sub-Mariner stories, they were routinely trashing military hardware, including tanks, cannon and sometimes jets.

 

An H-Bomb--both the extended version, and the quick and dirty version--does about 20d6 KA, which would require around 60-80 rDEF to survive--that's in the ballpark of a 120-160 active point game. If you figure Supes is trying to melt, say, a vault door(16 DEF, 9 Body), somewhere in the ballpark of 5d+1KA, AP, or at most 10d6 KA(6th ed version?) is necessary to do the trick--again in the ballpark of 120-150+ active points.

According to the Ultimate Brick, planet-moving can be done with half the necessary STR to lift a planet, so long as the hero has a suitable pushing point, and some means of movement. So maybe Supes could have a 180 STR and still be capable of moving planets, if he pushes and uses his superflight to help him along.

I don't know how many points it would take to come up with a respectable Superman "clone" in Champions, but my guess is 1500 or more, basing it on around 150-200 active point powers, with stats scaled accordingly.

 

The examples you gave did often destroy tanks, but I do not recall any of them defeating a large group of tanks, just one or two. (It has been a long time, I may be mistaken.)

But that is a problem many comics have had, the power of a character varies widely from issue to issue. When facing soldiers, etc. the character seems much more powerful than when facing another "super."

 

Per the Advanced Player's Guide (pg. 9), a STR=200 can lift 25 Gigatons. I get that the Earth has a volume of about one trillion cubic kilometers. That should mass roughly 5.5x10^20 tonnes, or about 22 million times 25 Gigatons. So how strong must Superman be? I get around 325 strength.

 

I don't know where you got 20d6 RKA for an H-bomb, but that seems awfully low to me.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

The tank shoots at Defender, misses, then Defender flips it over and on to the next tank. Tanks aren't designed to hit man-sized flying objects, or defend against them. I say 9 times out of 10, Defender outmaneuvers the tank and uses superstrength to disable it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

The examples you gave did often destroy tanks, but I do not recall any of them defeating a large group of tanks, just one or two. (It has been a long time, I may be mistaken.)

But that is a problem many comics have had, the power of a character varies widely from issue to issue. When facing soldiers, etc. the character seems much more powerful than when facing another "super."

 

Per the Advanced Player's Guide (pg. 9), a STR=200 can lift 25 Gigatons. I get that the Earth has a volume of about one trillion cubic kilometers. That should mass roughly 5.5x10^20 tonnes, or about 22 million times 25 Gigatons. So how strong must Superman be? I get around 325 strength.

 

I don't know where you got 20d6 RKA for an H-bomb, but that seems awfully low to me.

 

Hero System Almanac(4th edition), and Star Hero(5th ed.)--Nuclear Space Missile. 20d6 KA is enough to instantly destroy an M1 tank frontally. It's also enough to instantly turn an aircraft carrier into flaming wreckage headed to the bottom of the sea.

It should be around 385 STR, actually. 5.98 x 10^21 tons. But with the optional rule in Ultimate Brick, you can get it done with half that. The old 1st ed. DC Heroes pre-Crisis Supes had a 50 STR in that system, which if converted directly equates to a 250 STR in Hero.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Supes is broken. Especially in his last movie. "So he is picking up an island of kryptonite and flying it into outerspace....wow that stuff really kicks his butt *sarcasm*" And his nemisis is just a normal human..wow. That is like watching a Professional wrestler beat up a 6 year old.

 

Try Superman the animated series (TAS) and the rest of the Timmverse stuff. That is a Supes that's not broken. A much better power level. Note Doomsday does trash tanks but it does take some effort. Heavy caliber weapons at least do some stun the Superman also. Much better version than the stupid movie. Although the airplane scene was pretty nice.

 

such characters can destroy military hardware but it is a challenge. kind of like the latest Hulk movie. That's the power level I look for.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Also, even in the comics, there are only so many people who command that level of power. For every Superman or Thor, there are dozens of Green Arrows and Spider-Men. I admit that DC is a little over the top. Everyone of any consequence has access to 60+ points of STR on top of whatever else they can do, but still most of them would not be able to deal with a light infantry platoon single handedly, much less a mechanized formation.

 

Champions allows you the option to build the JLA, but most games are meant to be more like The Teen Titans or X-Men.

[Clonus]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Now I have the impression that the 3 power armor suits mentioned above are considerably better than any mass produced armor in the Champions universe. (If not, these three characters are NOT really powerful super-heroes and super-villains.) So any mass produced armor, even though still very expensive, would be SIGNIFICANTLY less capable.

 

But then mass-produced powered powered armor isn't intended to be a substitute for tanks. It's really intended to substitute for infantry and it would do an excellent job at that, at least as long as the batteries held out. They should have enough armor to shrug off carbine fire, frag grenades, anything short of squad support ordinance. Superhero universes _have_ super-substitutes for tanks and they aren't power armour. They're giant robots, spidermechs, war wheels, kaiju and hovertanks with blast cannon. You see it in Bubblegum Crisis. The protagonists are in horrendously advanced hard suits but they were still totally overmatched versus less advanced mecha that were intended to fill the tank role. Of course tanks are already very expensive. Their comic book equivalents would be orders of magnitude more expensive.

 

Almost all Champions campaigns are modeled more towards the 1960's Marvel Heroes. They had to fight and defeat their foes; but which of them could really defeat an army?

 

The Hulk, Silver Surfer, Namor, Thor and Iron Man (Red and Gold armor which is where his power growth plateau'd for a long time). I say the Hulk because he actually kept beating up the American military, and Namor because he'd do the same thing to the German World War II military and the others because they are in the same weight class. Now to be sure they were depicted as defeating about a company of armor at a time, but in fact it wouldn't be very practical to engage a human sized target with more than that anyway.

 

Of course there are two considerations here. The first is that they never actually would get hit with heavy ordinance. This is explicable in game terms. While in superhero games, military ordinance often does outgun characters, PCs usually have an edge in combat values, a massive one if they are highly experienced. As for the armor on the vehicles, they relatively rarely attack it. The two most typical moves are to bend the tank cannon's main gun into uselessness or simply toss the tank, something which produces a mission kill and can be easily accomplished by anyone strong enough to lift it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Just to echo what the others said, in our "Iron Age before Iron Age existed" game, the PCs actually did go up against military forces. With an OCV of 5, an Abrams is hitting many of these heroes maybe 1 time in a 100, and the Heroes are missing about the same. One on one, my Brick (the Warden) with his force field amped up had a hardened 60 rPD. He can laugh off small arms fire, with a DCV of 10 has little chance of being hit by a tank - and will survive if he does - odds are good it won't even stun him, even using AP ammo. Just going through flipping tanks over or smashing Bradleys and Humvees, he can destroy an armoured platoon in about 20-30 seconds, an armoured company in a minute or two. And with supersonic flight, by the time command has realised they've just lost a company and are ordering forces to converge - he's already sitting on a hill 20 kilometres away taking a breather.

 

Now, admittedly those "heroes" were built on 450-500 points (I think the Warden was about 470, IIRC) - and most of us weren't spending a lot on non-combat skills. It'll certainly cost more to build to that level under 6E. It's also true that a really lucky shot from a tank would have KO'ed pretty much any of the the PCs in that group and would certainly have killed a few - but seriously, 3 or 4 guys descend out of the sky on an armoured division and 30 seconds later the battlefield is littered with burning vehicles, bodies and upside down tanks, while the attackers are unharmed and obviously just getting warmed up. What do you think happens next? I'm envisaging a fair degree of running away myself, mixed with a lot of "Oh please god don't kill me, I have a wife and kids at home!"

 

What do you think happens to nearby divisions when the survivors start radioing through that 3 guys just trashed them in less than a minute, and headquarters has suddenly gone off the air because "Something just came up out of the ground!" and then there was a lot of screaming? When suddenly there's no air support, but they can see a big plume of smoke on the horizon just about where the airbase should be? What happens to divisional artillery when a guy who can take a hit from a tank gun and throw an artillery piece like a baseball, suddenly drops out of the sky? You think they're gonna take him on with sidearms? What happens on an aircraft carrier when a guy who can tear a bulkhead door off its hinges and throw it like a frisbee, comes up from underneath, tears a hole in its hull and starts ripping his way down the length of the ship through all the waterproof bulkheads? I 'm thinking you won't stop him with an M16 or a shotgun .....

 

And given that quite a lot of high-powered bricks have substantial flight, all of that could happen in a few hours over an area where the incidents are separated by hundreds of kilometers. The thing about supers is not just their raw power, but that - often - they have mobility that no conventional force can hope to match.

 

So yeah, even with Champions rules and moderate to high points, a group of typical supers could indeed make life very, very rough indeed for conventional military.

 

cheers, Mark

[Netzilla]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

My way of handling this, assuming I'm running a campaign where heroes should be capable of withstanding anti-tank fire, is the following house rule:

 

Supers vs Tanks (aka Kaiju vs Tanks or Alien Tripods vs Tanks, etc)

 

Any attack built with the Real Weapon Limitation, automatically counts as having Reduced Penetration vs any defense not built with the Real Armor Limitation.

 

Conversely, any defense built with the Real Armor Limitation counts as 1/2 value vs any attack not built with the Real Weapon Limitation.

 

It allows me to have supers, etc. able to take on real world military without having to go higher than I'm comfortable with DCs, DEF & point values.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Thoughts. Not about the actual game mechanics of military hardware, more about organization and mindsets.

 

Say (or post) 'Supers Vs Military', and we tend to picture something like Hulk demolishing some tanks, and scaring off some PBIs. Or variations thereof. Very often, in comics and the movies, there seems to be this thing rather like a Jackie Chan fight scene going on - a crowd trying to beat up on the one guy, with most of them basically queueing up and then waiting to take a turn at fighting.

 

"First we will whomp him with machine guns and, if he doesn't fall down, we'll send in a couple of guys with flamethrowers and, if THAT doesn't work, we'll send in a tank. If that doesn't work, we'll send in a couple more tanks with air support .... ".

 

Which, in terms of basic military tactics, is both unrealistic and downright ridiculous. One of the most fundamental principles is that dispersing your strength (such as by only using a little bit of it at a time) is one of the worst errors that can be made. One major reason why the more competent militaries spend so much time training - it isn't merely about remembering which button launches which missile, it's about learning to coordinate attacks from various different units and systems, and/or how to defend against same.

 

Which means that an uppity super-type who gets into a fracas with someone's armed forces should have a ... very interesting time. Whether a ground unit, or a fleet, or aircraft, or combinations thereof, they should be doing their best to coordinate attacks as much as possible. Not a nice obliging setpiece battle with one weapon type being used at a time, as one sees in entertainment, but all-at-once-and-every-which-way-but-loose. Leaders and other key people will probably have various relevant skill levels to this end and, unless they know nothing about supers (unllikely in a standard superheroic world, IMO), they will be at least competent at it.

 

Which also raises what else a military could bring to the party. It isn't just raw combat power, most have built-in intelligence / investigatory branches, especially important now with the growing emphasis on dealing with international terrorism. To really worry a super, you don't necessarily need an Armoured Divison or the SAS, just a few very savvy investigators or analysts could do it (crack Secret IDs, track down those Swiss bank accounts, etc.). Add in the really nifty surveillance stuff that sizable militaries now have (satellites, spy planes, UAVs, specialists "on the ground", and networks to speedily analyze and disseminate all this data). Heck, some militaries are now assembling Cyber-warfare units - specialists to safeguard their own increasingly important computer networks, and possibly to attack those of an opponent.

 

Yeah, Mr Super may have had a great old time yesterday beating up a company of tanks. Unfortunately, they now have a better idea of his capabilities - and he better start being VERY careful about where he sleeps, or whom he talks to, or places he visits, or even where / how he checks his e-mail.

 

Kind of rambling, I guess. The point I am trying to make is that an adequately-led military force (even a small one) should pose not just one but several problems for any Super. Far more than many might realize.

 

I'll be quiet now, you may resume normal programming

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

I think a Superman type still is a nightmare for any military, though--superstrength(enough at least to flip over tanks and rip wings off airplanes), nigh-invulnerability(only the strongest hardware really hurts), superspeed(much faster than human reflexes, can even dodge or deflect missiles), flight(fast enough to keep up with jet fighters), energy projection(good enough to strafe from the air, or hit targets hundreds of yards away), and enhanced senses(to detect concealed units and spot ambushes). Even the Hulk, with his miles-long leaps and relative agility, is a problem, because he can always leap to safety when things get too intense.

 

And this doesn't even get into what, say, a Masters of Evil, Eurostar/Crowns of Krim/7 Horsemen, or Injustice League could do...multiple supers with complementary powers, some meleeing with the heavy hardware while others are taking down supply and command and control...

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

As mentioned, it is all about the power level of the game you want to play. Give the players points to build characters respectively. If you want a cosmically powerful group of heroes, go for it. From a GM viewpoint, I much prefer lower-level campaigns, because it gives me a much wider array of adversaries that can prove challenging to the heroes. Beyond that, it requires the players to out-think rather than out-fight the opposition more often. If your supers can take a hit from an H-Bomb and punch through a vault door in a single blow, how many foes are really going to be a challenge for even one member of the team, much less a whole group? That is a recipe for boring.

[Markdoc]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Right - and although Ian makes some good points, that cuts both ways. Any powerful super who finds himself or herself targeted by the military probably knows where the seat of government and major military headquarters are.

It's precisely these sorts of discussions why it's best not to talk about "realism" in a comic-book universe. If a powerful bunch of supers finds itself at war with (say) the US, it's unlikely to content itself with beating up tanks on the battlefield - they'll teleport or drop in from orbit into the White house or the Pentagon or Cheyenne Mountain and start tearing stuff up. This sort of threat is precisely why the government would be wanting to deploy battlesuits in the military - and cost be damned. Tanks aren't much use when the supers are in ur base killing ur doodz.

 

cheers, Mark

[DusterBoy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Humans can go up against alien tripods too. . . does anyone remember this TV show from the '80s?

 

'Cos face it, a tripod with long spindly legs is very unstable.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

I'd think the government would hedge their bets and not go "all in" on just one kind of metatech--they'd invest in armor suits, robots/androids/cyborgs/replicants, super soldiers, maybe some espers ala Firestarter or Scanners, maybe even a few sorceror "consultants". Any major government which didn't invest or at least form one "official" superteam would rapidly discover it no longer had a monopoly on the use of force...

 

One thing I'd point out is that most superteams are likely to be heavily focused on fighting crime, both superhuman and normal human crime. As such, they don't butt heads with the military as frequently, and the military is strongly disinclined to get involved in fighting crime...unless the criminal in question is doing so much damage as to constitute a national security threat, or be beyond the ability of the heroes and the appropriate federal agency(PRIMUS,e.g.) to deal with.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

can someone swing the reptonfa at megaplayboy?thanks

a well said post megaplayboy

[Yansuf]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

The point I am trying to make is that an adequately-led military force (even a small one) should pose not just one but several problems for any Super. Far more than many might realize.

 

Absolutely true.

[Yansuf]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

I'd think the government would hedge their bets and not go "all in" on just one kind of metatech--they'd invest in armor suits, robots/androids/cyborgs/replicants, super soldiers, maybe some espers ala Firestarter or Scanners, maybe even a few sorceror "consultants". Any major government which didn't invest or at least form one "official" superteam would rapidly discover it no longer had a monopoly on the use of force...

 

One thing I'd point out is that most superteams are likely to be heavily focused on fighting crime, both superhuman and normal human crime. As such, they don't butt heads with the military as frequently, and the military is strongly disinclined to get involved in fighting crime...unless the criminal in question is doing so much damage as to constitute a national security threat, or be beyond the ability of the heroes and the appropriate federal agency(PRIMUS,e.g.) to deal with.

 

Much as I hate to agree with Megaplayboy (grin) I have to here.

[BLHarrison]

Re: Supers vs. Military

 

Of course one way to deal with high DCV supers is artillary, massive amounts of AOE attacks are hard to dodge. Granted the character who can go from 0 to mach 1 could get away, but assuming you have time to prepare, that's what unmarked mine-fields are for.