I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

[casualplayer]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Pure Goodman School. If you got down to figured characteristics and were interested in raising 2 or more of ED, REC, END or STUN then you went back upsheet and bumped your CON. Back in the day. Not sorry to see that go the way of the dodo but, in all honesty, I did it an uncountable number of times.

 

The only way to prove to people that going first isn't All That and A Bag of Chips is to whup them with a wizened white eyebrow sifu with a DEX of 8 who spent those DEX-sink points like Hugh suggested. Or use Kung Fu Panda. Agile, certainly when food was on the line. But fast? Nope. Resilient and tenacious won the day.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Current Health would determine stun threshold.

A wounded character would be easier to stun.

Poison would be handled by a health roll.

 

It is my intent to make the game more open to characters taking body(health)

I would expect characters to have more body to take if it is linked to their stun threshold.

This sounds horrible to me. I wouldn't play it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Pure Goodman School. If you got down to figured characteristics and were interested in raising 2 or more of ED' date=' REC, END or STUN then you went back upsheet and bumped your CON. Back in the day. Not sorry to see that go the way of the dodo but, in all honesty, I did it an uncountable number of times.[/quote']

 

I don't see that as problematic. The fact is, prior to 6e, CON meant "healthy", which meant hard to stun, hard to KO and didn't tire easily. In 6e, it means "hard to STUN" and you buy the other abilities separately.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Taking a look at all the Characteristics;

 

STR: Strength Roll, Damage, Lift

DEX: Dexterity Roll, Agility Skills, Combat Order

CON: Constitution Rolls, Stun Threshold

INT: Intelligence Roll, Intellect Skills, Perception Roll

EGO: Ego Roll, Mental Effect Threshold

PRE: Presence Roll, Interaction Skills, Presence Attacks, Presence Defense

 

If you believe the system places a higher preference on combat related capability; e.g. that Agility Skills and Combat Order are of greater importance - then you need to fully place emphasis on combat related aspects such as Damage (STR) and Stunning Threshold (CON). Otherwise, what you're really saying is "The highest importance is on Agility Skills and Combat Order" not "On Combat." If it's the case that combat and physical aspects are more important then STR and CON should also likely reflect that in price. Of course there's the whole can of worms about Damage and 5pts/D6 and that can of worms I'll simply ignore.

 

If you don't believe the system places (or should place) a high emphasis on combat related vs non-combat related abilities, then why should any Characteristic be priced above another. In theory they're all equal until Campaign Parameters are applied. Only then will you realize that one may have greater importance than another.

 

Just my two cents - I'm unhappy that the Universal Toolkit has already decided for me what has greater emphasis in my game - even if it does 3 out of 5 games that's my choice on play. Not the Toolkit's.

[Greywind]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

yes but are both rolls really necessary

No rolls are really necessary. In fact' date=' in a lot of cases, going outside and tossing a frisbee or baseball around might actually be more preferable.

 

Champions was created to build a character around 8 characteristics

 

Calculate characteristic were just that

Constitution's primary function was to determine endurance, stun and recovery.

Constitution's primary function was to prevent STUN effects. Which is why the three things you listed are Secondary or Figured.

 

really ?

people bought up Stun. Endurance and Recovery ?

Quite regularly if the concept didn't call for a high CON score.

 

Current Health would determine stun threshold.

A wounded character would be easier to stun.

Poison would be handled by a health roll.

 

It is my intent to make the game more open to characters taking body(health)

I would expect characters to have more body to take if it is linked to their stun threshold.

Nothing personal, but I agree with Bigby on this. Sounds like it would suck unless the intent is a really simplistic game.

[Matt Holck]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

ehh

I really don't see the necessity of separating con and body

sure I could come up with a character that may have a good reason to

as of now, I'm annoyed that I have to spend points on stun threshold

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

I have characters make Con rolls to avoid some diseases and during periods of long exertion (the LTE rules just never quite cover it well enough). I know plenty of big, meaty dudes who get sick at the drop of a hat and would have a heck of a time jogging all the way around a city block. To me, general health and fitness have little to do with overall body mass and physical toughness.

 

The plain vanilla system may not do much with Con, but I personally like the fact that the characteristic is still left there for GMs to play with. So polish up those old Mental Powers Based on Con and keep those players on their toes!

[jtelson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Otherwise' date=' what you're really saying is "The highest importance is on Agility Skills and Combat Order" not "On Combat."..[/quote']

 

I think the systemic emphasis is on Action and Combat. So a characteristic that determines Acrobatics, Breakfall, Climbing, Driving, Stealth, etc and has an arguably significant influence in combat, having a being more expensive supports that thoguht without necessitating a higher cost for other stats.

 

Just my two cents - I'm unhappy that the Universal Toolkit has already decided for me what has greater emphasis in my game - even if it does 3 out of 5 games that's my choice on play. Not the Toolkit's.

 

I used to complain the movies based on books weren't true to the source material until I saw the first Harry Potter movie. The movie was as true to the book as any I've seen and I walked away utterly dissatisfied. Granted, I'm not really a fan but that's a different conversation.

 

Anyway, and I can only speak for myself on this one, I'm not sure I'd want a system that was truely an unbiased toolkit (FUDGE, I suppose is more of one - Set your own stats even). I can understand being unhappy about systemic presumptions (Lord knows I've complained about them in the past) but I think I want a little more flavour even in my generic systems.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Quite regularly if the concept didn't call for a high CON score.

 

So a character who is tough, hardy and tireless, but not very healthy? Sounds like that would be pretty uncommon.

 

Of course, this depends on what we consider "CON" to actually represent. To me, a stat that fed into STUN, END and REC was a stat that indicated the character's overall level of fitness.

[Matt Holck]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

A character with a high recovery will endure penalties to that statt due to sickness better than a character with a low recovery.

 

 

I have characters make Con rolls to avoid some diseases and during periods of long exertion (the LTE rules just never quite cover it well enough). I know plenty of big, meaty dudes who get sick at the drop of a hat and would have a heck of a time jogging all the way around a city block. To me, general health and fitness have little to do with overall body mass and physical toughness.

 

The plain vanilla system may not do much with Con, but I personally like the fact that the characteristic is still left there for GMs to play with. So polish up those old Mental Powers Based on Con and keep those players on their toes!

 

fair enough

would these meaty people also stun easily?

 

 

 

I think the systemic emphasis is on Action and Combat. So a characteristic that determines Acrobatics' date=' Breakfall, Climbing, Driving, Stealth, etc [i']and[/i] has an arguably significant influence in combat, having a being more expensive supports that thought without necessitating a higher cost for other stats.

 

I've seen calls for tactics, paramedics, gadgeteering and analyze style during combat not to mention perception.

I've also seen calls oratory, acting and persuasion.

I would make climbing strength based.

[jtelson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

I've seen calls for tactics, paramedics, gadgeteering and analyze style during combat not to mention perception.

I've also seen calls oratory, acting and persuasion.

I would make climbing strength based.

 

Again Combat and Action but even if it was just combat (again which it's not) I've seen calls for City Knowledges, Survival, Lipreading and Systems Ops - If I lumped all of your random list and all of my random list together and multiplied by 10 it would still be less than the number of times I've seen Breakfall called for in combat so I'm not certain I understand your point.

[RexMundi]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

My last session ended up with (Party Inflicted, sometimes players are going to try weird things....) no less then 22 Breakfall rolls, 18 Acrobatics, 30 stealth checks, 2 analyze rolls, 8 persuasion attempts (on other party members....go figure. Oh. 5Perception rolls.....Wasn't even a fight session. Believe there were 2 Chineese Medicine rolls as well.....Dex at 2 points.....keeps it real. Otherwise everyone would go at the same time when it is a fight scene, and we would live in a world of Ninja Acrobats.

 

~Rex

[Matt Holck]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Superman finds this completely unrealistic

 

Again Combat and Action but even if it was just combat (again which it's not) I've seen calls for City Knowledges' date=' Survival, Lipreading and Systems Ops - If I lumped all of your random list and all of my random list together and multiplied by 10 it would still be less than the number of times I've seen Breakfall called for in combat so I'm not certain I understand your point.[/quote']

 

being prone should be a -2 DCV penalty not half

[jtelson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Superman finds this completely unrealistic

 

My understanding is he's gearing up to play Mutants and Masterminds these days.

[Southern Cross]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Actually, with the abolition of Figured Characteristics, what about splitting Dexterity into two Characteristics: Dexterity , representing hand-eye coordination,and Reflexes, representing the characters reaction ability? All DEX-based skill rolls would be split into either Dexterous skills, and based on Dexterity, whilst Agility skills would be based on Reflexes. All skill levels (including OCV and DCV ) would cost 3 points each.

[Escafarc]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Actually' date=' with the abolition of Figured Characteristics, what about splitting Dexterity into two Characteristics: Dexterity , representing hand-eye coordination,and Reflexes, representing the characters reaction ability? All DEX-based skill rolls would be split into either Dexterous skills, and based on Dexterity, whilst Agility skills would be based on Reflexes. All skill levels (including OCV and DCV ) would cost 3 points each.[/quote']

 

This is suggested in the book under Toolkitting the Price of DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Actually' date=' with the abolition of Figured Characteristics, what about splitting Dexterity into two Characteristics: Dexterity , representing hand-eye coordination,and Reflexes, representing the characters reaction ability? All DEX-based skill rolls would be split into either Dexterous skills, and based on Dexterity, whilst Agility skills would be based on Reflexes. All skill levels (including OCV and DCV ) would cost 3 points each.[/quote']

 

So we would now have two characteristics, each with a small set of skills (smaller than INT or PRE) based on them, one which also dictates combat order, costing the same as INT (all INT skills + PER rolls) and PRE (all intereaction skills + PRE attacks and defense). This just heightens the excessive cost of DEX, in my view.

 

I assume by "all skill levels", you include INT and PRE skill levels and enhanced perception.

 

Are your "OCV and DCV" skill levels intended to be in the nature of +1 OCV (or +1 DCV) only in certain circumstances, as opposed to the current model of combat skill levels?

[Southern Cross]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Actually,I always thought that 5 points per +1OCV or +1DCV was too high a cost. Ditto 5 points per +1 to a CHAR-based DEX roll. Since it cost 9 points to gain +1 to both OCV & DCV (and .3 points of SPD) in previous editions, 3 points seemed a better fit.

[JmOz]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

Actually' date=' with the abolition of Figured Characteristics, what about splitting Dexterity into two Characteristics: Dexterity , representing hand-eye coordination,and Reflexes, representing the characters reaction ability? All DEX-based skill rolls would be split into either Dexterous skills, and based on Dexterity, whilst Agility skills would be based on Reflexes. All skill levels (including OCV and DCV ) would cost 3 points each.[/quote']

 

this idea is in the APG, no mention of skill levels however it does split the skills (Most are dex, while a couple are for reflex

[Ragitsu]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

In my opinion, there is a ridiculous amount of controversy over Dexterity in FAR TOO MANY SYSTEMS!

 

In D&D, it is called an "uber stat". In Spycraft 2.0, it can make a character very formidable, very fast. In Mutants and Masterminds, it got divorced from Defense and chance to hit with ranged attacks so it wouldn't be "overpowered". It generates a lot of heated debate amongst New World of Darkness fans. It, along with IQ, cost twice as much as ST and HT in GURPS, and it too is often scorned as being unbalanced. In the HERO system, Dex costs more than other Attributes.

[Southern Cross]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

The problem is, I think, the fact that DEX, in most game systems, represents two things: hand-eye coordination and overall reaction times and body coordination. While these ARE related, if games can split intelligence into INT,EGO and PRE, it should be possible to split DEX into two separate (but related) Characteristics.

[pawsplay]

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

 

The problem is' date=' I think, the fact that DEX, in most game systems, represents two things: hand-eye coordination and overall reaction times and body coordination. While these ARE related, if games can split intelligence into INT,EGO and PRE, it should be possible to split DEX into two separate (but related) Characteristics.[/quote']

 

I can't speak for the current HERO writers, but from my own experience, this isn't done, because PCs are so often engaged in doing hand-eye coordination while simultaneously engaging in other kinds of coordination. It's easy to put lockpicking at one end and acrobatic jumps at the other, but in games you so often have situations like picking a pocket in the middle of combat, moving stealthily, picking locks stealthily, breaking falls while holding objects, etc.