Killing Damage in 6e

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

so how would you balance this with Heroic level where you don't pay points for your HKA?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. First, as a matter of clarity, you can still pay points for an HKA in a Heroic game. You might have a custom/signature weapon, or your character might have claws. For that matter, and more common across many heroic genres, you might have a martial maneuver that does HKA damage.

 

You don't pay points for equipment. Equipment would be built, behind the scenes, as 1d6 (for example) HKA (with the limitation that you need 8 STR to use it effectively; if you are under that level, your OCV and damage are reduced), +1d6 HKA requiring 5 STR above the 8 STR minimum per added DC be locked out (the same limit I posit for the clawed berserker who wants a higher HKA when he uses his STR behind it). I suspect these limitations would seldom be used in Supers games - the character will just buy his Killing Attack normally. In Heroic games, they would be much more common, but are built in to the weapon.

 

This also adds some flexibility. Some weapons might be able to benefit from more STR (perhaps they can triple their DC's) and others less so (maybe they can only add 2/3 their DC's). Some could even benefit faster (+1 DC per 4 SR) or slower (+1 DC per 7 STR) if desired.

 

the point is that all strength now can stack on a HKA

to limit is now an option instead of the other way around

IMHO the rule should have stood as it was and not changed

 

What was superior about the interim rule? The rule in 1e was that all STR could stack on a HKA. From 2e to 5e, it was capped at doubling the HKA. Now it's unlimited again. What makes one superior to the other? Why isn't a maximum 50% add, or a maximum tripling, more appropriate?

 

Why should a 30 SR character paying 30 points for an HKA do 4d6 HKA (and get all the benefits of the STR) when a 15 STR character paying 45 points for an HKA has the same killing attack, the same overall point cost, and less versatility because he lacks the benefits from that extra 15 STR? Why should STR enhance an HKA when no other attack powers in the game have a similar synergy bonus (writing HTH attack off as limited STR)? If I can buy a HKA that is augmented by STR, why not an RKA augmented by my Blast, or a Drain that is augmented by my Flash?

 

I would be OK with the d3 for stun multiplier

BUT you now get all your non-resistant def(pd or ed)to go against the stun also, is way to big of a nerf on KA's

 

You did in 5E too' date=' so long as you had a single point of applicable Resistant Defense.[/quote']

 

And everyone had a bit of rDEF, because not having it meant you were easy prey for KA's.

 

Whether this nerfs the KA depends a lot on the game. In my Supers games, rDEF tends to be pretty high, and KA's are nerfed. Initially, I thought that made the reduced multiplier a bad idea. But thinking on it, it's not. It's a reflection of the fact that, in my game, killing an opponent is not supposed to be at all common, so killing attacks SHOULD be nerfed. They should not get an ability to punch through a lot of extra STUN in order to make up for the fact that they can't effectively kill people. If I want a game where killing people is rare and dificult, then killing attacks should be neither common nor effective.

 

It occured to me during the argument that I would never send a bunch of agents with 6d6 Blasters up against the Supers. But I would send in a bunch of agents with 2d6 killing attacks, because those had a shot at getting some damage through. If both attacks cost the same, why would the one supposedly intended to kill the target be the clear and automatic choice to try to drop their STUN? I don't take a Flash to kill my opponents or KO them, I take it to blind them. If I'm buying a killing attack, it seems approproate its function is to kill, not to inflict ancillary Stun damage.

 

Other aproaches are certainly possible. The real advantage of the 5e killing attack was volatility of pre-defense damage, which got a lot of extra damage through after defenses. Changing the volatility is pretty easy. Change the KA to roll 1d6 per 5 points. Count the STUN and BOD like a normal attack, except that both 5 and 6 get 2 BOD (average per 3 DC's remains 3.5 BOD so 12 DC's still averages 14 BOD), and subtract half the number of dice from the STUN (average STUN from 12 DC's is now 36 instead of 37 1/3). You now have an attack that does a bit moe BOD and a bit less STUN, similar to the old KA, but lacks that volatility.

 

Or make normal attacks 15 points for 1d6. That 1d6 is the BOD roll, but you subtract 1 from the roll for every 2 dice, so a 12 DC attack averages 12 BOD (just like a 12d6 blast does now). Then roll a 1d6 Stun Multiple which will average 3.5 = 42 STUN, just like the average for a 12d6 Blast. Same average, but the old attack's volatility.

 

That gives us three settings for volatility - high volatility (15 points per die and a stun multiple), medium volatility (5 points per die with no multiple) and no volatility (standard effect or, if you prefer, use the average rather than a rounded down average). Tools for the toolkit.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I think the change with STR stacking on KA is probably a good one, although one I wouldn't generally use. The reason is that the HERO system is set up to give you as much flexibility as possible. GMs make restrictions for particular genres or campaigns all the time (damage caps, limited powers, etc.), and the doubling rule on KA's would be another example. Personally I would be much less likely to ignore a rule that is obviously intended for balance than I would be to limit some power to give the right flavor to my own campaign.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

the point is that all strength now can stack on a HKA

to limit is now an option instead of the other way around

IMHO the rule should have stood as it was and not changed

 

I think the reason it was changed is that the rules for how much could be doubled became extremely complicated.

[slaughterj]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Well, only if the GM is a fool. Because if the GM is no fool, then they might limit the damage of a weapon to twice the weapon's damage. ;-)

 

6E2, page 99.

 

I've seen that in the book, but I think it is really overstating the situation. According to the system, 60 STR does 12D6 Normal damage, which is equivalent to 4D6 Killing damage. Converting from Normal to Killing damage should be a wash since the system considers 12 DCs of damage to be equivalent regardless whether Normal or Killing, so really all that is going on here is adding 1 DC of damage, not exactly game-breaking and certainly overstating things to call the GM a fool over it.

 

Further, if the PC actually paid points for 1 DC of killing and also for the 60 STR damage, then the PC paid the points for 13 DCs of damage, and in that case, it would arguably be penalizing the PC if they couldn't use it together since they paid for it (sure, it would be a cheap way for a PC to use their Normal damage for Killing, but they could have bought another 5 STR instead and done even more Normal damage than they would otherwise do). Part of the problem is the idiosyncracy of DCs of Normal and Killing damage don't "exactly" cost the same (5 STR is better than just 1D6 Normal damage).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Multipowers might be a good argument for why lots of Str should add to small KAs. But then again, if you had Str and a large KA in a Multipower and switched to the KA, you'd be an utter weakling for your Phase, and we all know the number of maneuvers and other side effects that would cause ("Yes. You suddenly find yourself weighed down by your 2 tonnes of equipment. You're encumbered. You're hit 17 times by the goons' laser pistols....").

 

Personally I'd rather the default in the system be that you can't pick up a fork and start mutilating people left and right just (about) as well as someone with a giant sword. Not unless you've bought a big power with an IIF or something (and I guess that is the default rule for anything with a Str Min--6E2 p. 199--which makes me feel a little better; still I don't think it's quite right to get even more bang for your Str-Buck in superheroic games either).

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Cost STR at 2 points per and get rid of the silly non-limiting lim on hand attacks(which is only there because STR is too cheap) and bingo! Problem solved. 60 STR will still add 12 DCs to a 1-pip HKA, since the rules state that each 5 points of STR equal a DC instead of each 5 character points, but the cost will be prohibitive enough that it's not abusive, and you'll no longer have to special case the END cost for STR in Heroic games.

 

PS. Although some people on this board have made the argument that INT & PRE are somehow worth half as much as DEX, I doubt anyone will make such an argument for STR.

[Hrimhari]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Cost STR at 2 points per and get rid of the silly non-limiting lim on hand attacks(which is only there because STR is too cheap) and bingo! Problem solved. 60 STR will still add 12 DCs to a 1-pip HKA, since the rules state that each 5 points of STR equal a DC instead of each 5 character points, but the cost will be prohibitive enough that it's not abusive, and you'll no longer have to special case the END cost for STR in Heroic games.

 

PS. Although some people on this board have made the argument that INT & PRE are somehow worth half as much as DEX, I doubt anyone will make such an argument for STR.

I'd make the argument. =) I'd never play a brick if STR costs were doubled. The arguments were compelling in 5th, but 6e, no, I'd play speedsters instead.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I thought the new kill attack stun multiplier was1/2D6+1 or 2 to 4

[Hrimhari]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I thought the new kill attack stun multiplier was1/2D6+1 or 2 to 4

6E1 242 indicates that it's a straight 1/2d6.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

the point is that all strength now can stack on a HKA

to limit is now an option instead of the other way around

IMHO the rule should have stood as it was and not changed

 

Well, yes and no. It turns out that if you're using STR Min (6e2 199) or Real Weapon (6e2 200), it's automatically assumed that you can only double "Base Damage", unless the GM rules otherwise. And in the case of doing more damage, the assumption is that the weapon will also take the same amount of damage done, meaning that it's more likely to break.

 

JoeG

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I've seen that in the book, but I think it is really overstating the situation. According to the system, 60 STR does 12D6 Normal damage, which is equivalent to 4D6 Killing damage. Converting from Normal to Killing damage should be a wash since the system considers 12 DCs of damage to be equivalent regardless whether Normal or Killing, so really all that is going on here is adding 1 DC of damage, not exactly game-breaking and certainly overstating things to call the GM a fool over it.

 

Further, if the PC actually paid points for 1 DC of killing and also for the 60 STR damage, then the PC paid the points for 13 DCs of damage, and in that case, it would arguably be penalizing the PC if they couldn't use it together since they paid for it (sure, it would be a cheap way for a PC to use their Normal damage for Killing, but they could have bought another 5 STR instead and done even more Normal damage than they would otherwise do). Part of the problem is the idiosyncracy of DCs of Normal and Killing damage don't "exactly" cost the same (5 STR is better than just 1D6 Normal damage).

 

So why can't I buy 1d6 of Blast and add it to my 6d6 6 Defense Entangle to do 13 DC's? I paid for 12 DC's and then I paid for one more, so you are penalizing me for not letting me use them together. I paid for both powers.

 

I can use them together - as a Multiple Power Attack, doing 1d6 Blast and 6d6 6 DEF entangle. And there is no reason I can't do the same with a 1 point KA and a 12d6 Punch.

 

The "value" of 1 DC is questionable. 5 points spent on Blast gives you 1 DC which you can spread, and use at range. 5 points spent on STR gives you 1DC with no range or spreading, and some ancillary abilities like Lifting and Grabbing.

[slaughterj]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

So why can't I buy 1d6 of Blast and add it to my 6d6 6 Defense Entangle to do 13 DC's? I paid for 12 DC's and then I paid for one more, so you are penalizing me for not letting me use them together. I paid for both powers.

 

I can use them together - as a Multiple Power Attack, doing 1d6 Blast and 6d6 6 DEF entangle. And there is no reason I can't do the same with a 1 point KA and a 12d6 Punch.

 

The "value" of 1 DC is questionable. 5 points spent on Blast gives you 1 DC which you can spread, and use at range. 5 points spent on STR gives you 1DC with no range or spreading, and some ancillary abilities like Lifting and Grabbing.

 

The Multiple Power Attack seems like another possible option. But the difference with STR and Killing attacks versus your example is the former are already able to stack in the system.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I'd make the argument. =) I'd never play a brick if STR costs were doubled. The arguments were compelling in 5th' date=' but 6e, no, I'd play speedsters instead.[/quote']

 

I should have realized that someone would take it as a challenge.

[Hrimhari]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

I should have realized that someone would take it as a challenge.

You're welcome. =D

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

So now in 6th edition, in everyone's opinion, is killing damage still superior to normal damage as was the conventional wisdom before?

[Vondy]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

My preferred solution, from the perspective of system purity, would be to eliminate STR adds entirely. Hand Attacks become + X STR, only for direct damage (-1/2) or + X STR, only to increase effects from combat maneuvers (-1/4).

 

You want a higher KA because you are strong? Buy a bigger KA.

 

And I model this in a heroic games how, exactly? This is my issue with most proposed solutions, actually. They are tailored to perceived problems in superheroic default settings, but may well introduce problems in heroic settings. The system should contain no such bias.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

So now in 6th edition' date=' in everyone's opinion, is killing damage still superior to normal damage as was the conventional wisdom before?[/quote']

 

In my (somewhat limited) experience, Killing Damage is neither superior nor inferior to Normal Damage when playing 6e.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

The Multiple Power Attack seems like another possible option. But the difference with STR and Killing attacks versus your example is the former are already able to stack in the system.

 

How the system presently works and how the system previously worked are not, in my view, persuasive arguments for how the system should work. The ability of STR to augment hand to hand killing attacks is an orphan mechanic. There are no other attacks which can augment a second, different, attack in the system. If the system should allow one attack to augment another, I believe that should be broader than just STR augments HKA's. If the system should not allow one attack to aument another, then this should be applied consistently.

 

Hand attack becomes STR only for damage, so it is the same attack, with a portion having a limitation. Hand attacks with advantages? You have to buy the advantage for your STR as well if you want the advantage on the whole attack.

 

And I model this in a heroic games how' date=' exactly? This is my issue with most proposed solutions, actually. They are tailored to perceived problems in superheroic default settings, but may well introduce problems in heroic settings. The system should contain no such bias.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure where you see a difficulty modeling this in heroic games. If I'm overlooking something, please highlight it for me.

 

Assuming I want an attack which is augmented by STR in heroic games (and I probably do - Conan swings his broadsword harder than a townsman), then I assume that the HTH weapons have "+x DC's, must be powered by STR in excess of the STR minimum on a 5 point per 1 DC basis". I don't need to cost that out - weapons are purchased with cash, not points.

 

I can also decide that certain weapons are more able to be augmented with STR (perhaps you can triple, rather than double, its DC's if you have enough STR), and some are less able (this one perhaps can be augmented only 50%). Perhaps some use STR more efficiently (4 STR over the minimum adds a DC, for example) and others less so (it takes 6 or 7 STR over the STR minimum to get an extra DC). I don't have to, but this option is added.

 

RKA's can also be augmented by STR. This bow is designed for a person of incredible STR, and can add up to 3d6 KA if the weilder has the 45 extra STR to fully draw the bow. A weaker character can use the bow (no OCV penalty), but can't draw it fully, so it does less damage. RKA's currently require a kludge of either "it's really a HKA with Range" or buying extra DC's with the same limitation. This simply makes a HKA a Killing Attack, No Range.

 

And if I want my CatMan character to have 1d6 HKA claws that inflict 2d6 when I add my 15 STR, then I need to buy 1d6 Killing Attack, No Range (15/1.5 = 10 points) and +1d6 KA, No Range (-1/2), Locks Out 15 STR (calll that -1/2) and pay another 7 points. For 17 points, I have a 2d6 HKA, but if my STR is reduced to 5, my KA drops to 1d6+1. If I want it to combine with normal damage from STR, and not be affected if my STR ios reduced, I pay the full 20 point cost of a 2d6 KA, No Range. A Short Sword that does 1d6 Killing Damage is purchased exactly the same way, except for the addition of a Focus.

[dmjalund]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

suggestion

HKA

STR does not add (-1/2)

STR adds up to half DCs (-1/4)

STR can double DCs (-0)

STR can Triple DCs (+1/4)

STR can add completely to DCs (+1/2)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

suggestion

HKA

STR does not add (-1/2)

STR adds up to half DCs (-1/4)

STR can double DCs (-0)

STR can Triple DCs (+1/4)

STR can add completely to DCs (+1/2)

 

That is not a bad idea, except that with a 60 STR and a 1 pip KA, I can go from a 1/2d6 KA (5 pts) to a 4d6+1 KA (7pts) for the cost of 2 points, which is trivial.

 

Obviously STR was somewhat broken in 5e. Does STR cost too little still? I don't think so. 5 points will buy you 1 DC of Blast or 1 DC of punching damage. Blast has range, but STR gives you lifting and grabbing utility, so I think that is reasonably balanced. Ternaugh highlights the key problem which is real weapons differ from cinematic ones. Realistically it would be ridiculous to be able to kill someone with a toothpick, but in a supers game you could envision a Brick Trick of throwing the toothpick with such velocity it worked like a flechette round. And as pointed out earlier, from a cost perspective buying a small KA to get massively boosted by STR isn't much different from putting two big attacks in a Multipower. So really I think it is a matter of ruling it to match the realism level of your game.

[slaughterj]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

One other comment to throw in, there is already an optional maneuver, Club Weapon, which basically converts Killing DCs to Normal. This is yet further evidence of their equivalence, which makes it questionable to have to blow a bunch of points into both Killing and STR to have the option to do both equivalently.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Hmm. I've never really seen this one proposed before. What if you could NEVER do damage with straight Strength? What if you HAD to add it to a Hand Attack (now upgraded to include squeezing and other traditionally un-HA forms of combat damage!) or Hand Killing Attack? We'd have to upgrade the Everyman abilities to include 1d6 HA, obviously. How would a max-doubling change things then? Hmm. Intriguing. I might even be happy with Str costing 1 per point in that context....

[Vanguard]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

One possible problem I see with the hit location chart not conforming to the default damage rules is that in games that use hit locations, most attacks will get the benefit of hit locations, but area effects generally won't, so effectively they are relatively weakened versus other attacks in games which use hit locations.

 

Similarly, it seems that non-damaging attacks (Drain Stun, etc. etc.) are also relatively weakened versus regular damaging attacks.

 

My answer may have already been touched on later in the thread but I thought I'd comment anyway . ..

 

In our Heroic level games, we use a blanket x1 Body x2 (since the stun mod has been modified, before it was x3) Stun multiple for AoE attacks. Doing it that was seems to work out relatively well.

[Vanguard]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

 

 

I think it comes down to a judgment call, "is what the player is asking for overpowering?"

 

Or, i think more to the point, "Is what the player asking for so full of cheese you'll never get the smell of limburger out of your living room". In the cited example, it's obvious the brick player is trying to play the system and is metagaming for all they're worth . . . in which case, they deserve to get smacked down for it.

[Hrimhari]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Hmm. I've never really seen this one proposed before. What if you could NEVER do damage with straight Strength? What if you HAD to add it to a Hand Attack (now upgraded to include squeezing and other traditionally un-HA forms of combat damage!) or Hand Killing Attack? We'd have to upgrade the Everyman abilities to include 1d6 HA' date=' obviously. How would a max-doubling change things then? Hmm. Intriguing. I might even be happy with Str costing 1 per point in that context....[/quote']

Or you could roll Strength in with Body; if strength isn't providing damage, maybe body can provide lifting?