DCV Drain

[Michael Hopcroft]

After seeing OCV drains in Powers, I was wondering just how devastating it would be if you could drain DCV and make your target easier (sometimes MUCH easier) to hit.

 

Is this the sort of power that GMs should outlaw as a matter of course? Is it too potent an ability to give to a PC? Would it truly wreck a game when used against PCs by a villain?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: DCV Drain

 

I can't really see why you'd ban it outright. There's still Power Defense, and I'm assuming Drain and DCV are sufficiently expensive that it would take multiple Drains to really hose someone's DCV. How much DCV would a 60 AP/12 DC Drain remove?

 

There's also the fact that characters with a low DCV probably don't care if you Drain it, and characters with a high DCV are hard to hit with the Drain in the first place, unless you use Area of Effect, which means their DCV doesn't get lowered that much.

[The Main Man]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Plus DCV counts as a defensive power/characteristic, so the Drain would have half effect as-is. You also can still Aid, Absorb to, and Heal DCV if you need to.

[prestidigitator]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Yeah. 60 Base Points of Drain would be 6d6 with an average effect roll of 21 and a maximum of 36, which is an average of 2 DCV and a maximum of 3 DCV. Not all that impressive, though if you could get a few hits in I guess it could build up to something notable.

[Fearghus]

Re: DCV Drain

 

In general I find drains to be very expensive with a low bang for your buck so to speak. for the same 60 AP you could build a 12d6 blast... an average of 42 stun and 12 body. granted most characters are going to be unaffected by the body but most of the stun will probably get through any character accept a brick.

 

Once you start draining characteristics and defenses and drain becomes even less effective. Just hit the guy. it will get you farther.

[casualplayer]

Re: DCV Drain

 

The best DCV Drains in the world are Grab and Entangle.

 

But sure, why not? There are weapons which "paint the target" for the follow up attack, which sounds like a DCV Drain to me. Some sort of missile lock? It's a tactic I've used in Battletech where a fast-footed beercan of a mech runs in and relays targeting info back to my Riflemen on the ridge.

 

I mean, I only have to drop you a smidge to cost you a full point of DCV against everyone. Could be a brutal VIPER weapon, chased with massed fire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DCV Drain

 

In general I find drains to be very expensive with a low bang for your buck so to speak. for the same 60 AP you could build a 12d6 blast... an average of 42 stun and 12 body. granted most characters are going to be unaffected by the body but most of the stun will probably get through any character accept a brick.

 

For 60 AP, I can Drain 6d6 STR. That's a 20 point drop from a marginally under average hit. Now your 12 DC Brick has 8 DC's, and many other archetypes are at or approaching 0 STR. That seems pretty effective.

 

How about CON? It's defensive, so that's 10 from a marginally below average hit. Many characters in that 12 DC game have 20 - 25 defenses and a 23 CON. Drop that CON to 13 and they are stunned by a typical hit.

 

INT? EGO? PRE? These drop by 20 on a slightly less than average hit, putting many characters to 0. A second hit has most characters with a stat below 0, very problematic.

 

DEX not so much, but that's largely because DEX is overpriced at 2 points.

 

PD or ED drop by 10. Similar effect to CON, except they take more STUN as well, at the cost of not helping all attacks. Not the best, but useful.

 

SPD? From 5 to 3 to 1 to 0 is pretty nasty.

 

REC? Average drop of 10 puts a crimp in PS 12 pretty fast - especially for those heavy END users.

 

END? 25 END lost for a below average hit seems like quite a bit.

 

STUN? About 20 lost (defensive at 1/2 point per), but your 25 REC doesn't help it come back faster. And with 20 - 25 defenses, that's about the same damage as a 12d6 Blast.

 

CV? Well, losing 4 OCV a hit is pretty painful.

 

DCV may be the worst bargain at 2 per, especially since (as noted above) the targets it's most effective against are the ones it has trouble hitting to get the ball rolling.

 

Drains aren't instant kills, nor should they (or pretty much any power) be. But useless/overpriced? No, I don't really think so. Not unless we let everyone in the game have some power defense, which kind of erodes the claim it is an exotic, rather than a universal, defense.

[Vulcan]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Given the effect of the bell curve, even a 2-point loss to DCV can be devastating to a high-DCV character. Characters with high DCVs tend to rely on not getting hit to survive. Once they are hit usually they are knocked out, if not dead outright.

 

A 2-point shift in DCV changes an 8- roll to a 10-. And those aren't good odds for a low-defense, DCV reliant character. He is pretty much required to dodge at that point just to survive. And frankly, once you are forced into a particular action, the enemy has the initiative and is likely to win. Eventually the odds catch up with you.

[Fearghus]

Re: DCV Drain

 

For 60 AP, I can Drain 6d6 STR. That's a 20 point drop from a marginally under average hit. Now your 12 DC Brick has 8 DC's, and many other archetypes are at or approaching 0 STR. That seems pretty effective.

 

How about CON? It's defensive, so that's 10 from a marginally below average hit. Many characters in that 12 DC game have 20 - 25 defenses and a 23 CON. Drop that CON to 13 and they are stunned by a typical hit.

 

INT? EGO? PRE? These drop by 20 on a slightly less than average hit, putting many characters to 0. A second hit has most characters with a stat below 0, very problematic.

 

DEX not so much, but that's largely because DEX is overpriced at 2 points.

 

PD or ED drop by 10. Similar effect to CON, except they take more STUN as well, at the cost of not helping all attacks. Not the best, but useful.

 

SPD? From 5 to 3 to 1 to 0 is pretty nasty.

 

REC? Average drop of 10 puts a crimp in PS 12 pretty fast - especially for those heavy END users.

 

END? 25 END lost for a below average hit seems like quite a bit.

 

STUN? About 20 lost (defensive at 1/2 point per), but your 25 REC doesn't help it come back faster. And with 20 - 25 defenses, that's about the same damage as a 12d6 Blast.

 

CV? Well, losing 4 OCV a hit is pretty painful.

 

DCV may be the worst bargain at 2 per, especially since (as noted above) the targets it's most effective against are the ones it has trouble hitting to get the ball rolling.

 

Drains aren't instant kills, nor should they (or pretty much any power) be. But useless/overpriced? No, I don't really think so. Not unless we let everyone in the game have some power defense, which kind of erodes the claim it is an exotic, rather than a universal, defense.

 

Whoa! Calm down there! First>>> I didn't say that drain was "useless". I just said I find it to be less effective than other relatively "conventional" (for lack of a better word) attacks. I have nothing against drain... I have just found it to be less effective in practice. It certainly has it's place... indeed there are many builds that can not be accomplished without it.

 

As for it being overpriced In 5th ed there is no doubt that it was overpriced... 6th ed has gone a long way to make the price more fair by making drain have a standard range rather than no range, but I didn't say it was overpriced either.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Its a valid ability, and one I've used at least once before. There are more efficient ways to accomplish a similar effect, but Drain vs DCV has the advantage of being straight to bare metal and it works against something everyone has so its an ability that is always useful.

 

Note however that Drains only become really effective when you leverage them with advantages, particularly delayed fade rate, and expanded effect. You need to be draining more points than you spent on the ability for it to be leveraged in your favor. And if your intent isn't just to kill the foe (in which case there are more combat-applicable and effective approaches), but rather to inconvenience them for a while then Drain w/ DFR is rises to the top as one of the best ways to accomplish that particular desire.

 

I often model curses and the like with Drains.

[prestidigitator]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Given the effect of the bell curve' date=' even a 2-point loss to DCV can be devastating to a high-DCV character. Characters with high DCVs tend to rely on [i']not getting hit[/i] to survive. Once they are hit usually they are knocked out, if not dead outright.

So which is worse, losing 2 DCV or being knocked out or outright dead? While losing 2 DCV might be significant for DCV-based characters, it's not nearly so bad as the other effects that might well come into play if they are hit with 60 Base Points worth of power.... I think you shot yourself in the foot with that argument.

 

Note that there's also an entry on the Change Environment table for, "Additional -1 to the Range Modifier (or, in the GM’s judgment, some other negative Combat Modifier)." If the GM allows it, you could cause that -2 DCV with a simple 6-point Change Environment (and at that value, pile on whatever kind of Area of Effect type Advantages to make sure it hits). Of course, that is Constant rather than being an Instant power with lasting effects and a Fade Rate, but that, too, can be fixed up....

[casualplayer]

Re: DCV Drain

 

I often model curses and the like with Drains.

 

The thing that immediately jumped to mind was those arrow-attracting cursed shields that D&D has because, hey, maybe the Drain is Invisible.

[The Main Man]

Re: DCV Drain

 

Given the effect of the bell curve' date=' even a 2-point loss to DCV can be devastating to a high-DCV character. Characters with high DCVs tend to rely on [i']not getting hit[/i] to survive. Once they are hit usually they are knocked out, if not dead outright.

 

A 2-point shift in DCV changes an 8- roll to a 10-. And those aren't good odds for a low-defense, DCV reliant character. He is pretty much required to dodge at that point just to survive. And frankly, once you are forced into a particular action, the enemy has the initiative and is likely to win. Eventually the odds catch up with you.

Unless he has Aid DCV. But at least their opponent isn't using Aid OCV, which gets faster results.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: DCV Drain

 

In the games I've been in we rarely use drain and find that it is not very effective. To explain this I should give some background on my group's habits.

 

I play with a group where nearly all characters have Power Defense equal to about half of their physical/energy defense. This would translate to about 12 power defense in a 12 DC game. That means 6d6 drain (21 average) only does 9 points of drain. That's not enough to strip off a single point of DCV.

 

What I've found to wreck people is dispel. You need to grab a friend for this one. Fight the other guy and figure out how his defenses are built. Probably with resistant protection but he might have some DN or DR on that. Wait till he acts (this probably requires you going on a DCV dropping maneuver the previous phase so that he wants to attack before you get an action, assuming his dex is higher than yours, otherwise you can force him to abort just by attacking). Once he's acted and cannot abort, then you hit him with the biggest Dispel (Defense) you can.

 

Dispel isn't resisted by power defense, and it isn't an adjustment power so it doesn't take twice as much to dispel a defensive power. It is all or nothing though, so you need to both roll well and put your levels in damage. If you succeed, your friend immediately hits them, usually for massive damage. If you let them abort, they will abort to reactive the defense, plus any additional defensive slots, plus some dodging, so don't let them do that.

 

I've only pulled it off once in a campaign but it was pretty devastating. Great for the long shot, last ditch, combine attack.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: DCV Drain

 

The best DCV Drains in the world are Grab and Entangle.

 

But sure, why not? There are weapons which "paint the target" for the follow up attack, which sounds like a DCV Drain to me. Some sort of missile lock? It's a tactic I've used in Battletech where a fast-footed beercan of a mech runs in and relays targeting info back to my Riflemen on the ridge.

 

 

I agree that Grab and Entangle are the most effective way to skunk someone's DCV, although the sfx might argue for a Drain.

 

The "paint the target" approach to me sounds like Combat Skill levels, only useable after the target is "painted" though. That is cheaper, but it only works for allies that can use the paint to their advantage.

[dmjalund]

Re: DCV Drain

 

In the games I've been in we rarely use drain and find that it is not very effective. To explain this I should give some background on my group's habits.

 

I play with a group where nearly all characters have Power Defense equal to about half of their physical/energy defense. This would translate to about 12 power defense in a 12 DC game. That means 6d6 drain (21 average) only does 9 points of drain. That's not enough to strip off a single point of DCV.

 

What I've found to wreck people is dispel. You need to grab a friend for this one. Fight the other guy and figure out how his defenses are built. Probably with resistant protection but he might have some DN or DR on that. Wait till he acts (this probably requires you going on a DCV dropping maneuver the previous phase so that he wants to attack before you get an action, assuming his dex is higher than yours, otherwise you can force him to abort just by attacking). Once he's acted and cannot abort, then you hit him with the biggest Dispel (Defense) you can.

 

Dispel isn't resisted by power defense, and it isn't an adjustment power so it doesn't take twice as much to dispel a defensive power. It is all or nothing though, so you need to both roll well and put your levels in damage. If you succeed, your friend immediately hits them, usually for massive damage. If you let them abort, they will abort to reactive the defense, plus any additional defensive slots, plus some dodging, so don't let them do that.

 

I've only pulled it off once in a campaign but it was pretty devastating. Great for the long shot, last ditch, combine attack.

What is the Special Effects behind all these Power Defenses?

 

(Inquiring Minds want to know)

[The Main Man]

Re: DCV Drain

 

What is the Special Effects behind all these Power Defenses?

 

(Inquiring Minds want to know)

 

Also, Power Defense does affect Dispel.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: DCV Drain

 

What is the Special Effects behind all these Power Defenses?

 

(Inquiring Minds want to know)

 

As an usual player in the same games Roy is in, I think I can answer this. It's generally assumed that power defense and mental defense needs about the same level of justification as regular and resistant defenses. So if you can have "Tough Body 10rPD/10rED" you can have "Tough Body II 5 PowD" or "Mental Combat Training 5 MD." We also sometimes have PowD and MD treated more like base characteristics like PD and ED in some of more recent games (very high powered urban fantasy and high fantasy with a special metaphysical framework). Special effects range from "I'm a god", "I'm an alchemical iron golem", "I'm the Embodiment of the Romantic Movement," "I'm a psychic whose powers are aided by a mystic artifact from Atlantis," to "I'm an alternate universe Gordon Freeman."

 

To stay on topic, I've played a character with Change Environment used to decrease combat values, it wasn't pretty. It is especially bad when you can also make summons that have penalty skill levels against said Change Environment. Really allowing you to just drain combat values directly makes the whole process so much cleaner and more balanced.

 

Draining DCV is usually a sucker's game. There's better ways to affect a target's DCV (grabs & entangles especially).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: DCV Drain

 

So which is worse, losing 2 DCV or being knocked out or outright dead? While losing 2 DCV might be significant for DCV-based characters, it's not nearly so bad as the other effects that might well come into play if they are hit with 60 Base Points worth of power.... I think you shot yourself in the foot with that argument.

If we're talking about Draining 2 DCV on average with one hit, than it is your argument that is faulty. How many attacks built out of "60 Base Points worth of power" KO or kill someone with one hit? Your not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously being dead is worse than losing 2 DCV, but losing 2 DVC can sure help lead to being dead.

[prestidigitator]

Re: DCV Drain

 

If we're talking about Draining 2 DCV on average with one hit' date=' than it is your argument that is faulty. How many attacks built out of "60 Base Points worth of power" KO or kill someone with one hit? Your not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously being dead is worse than losing 2 DCV, but losing 2 DVC can sure help lead to being dead.[/quote']

I was replying to a statement that high-DCV characters tend to rely on not being hit, and when they are hit, tend to be knocked out or killed. Well, the Drain has to hit, right? And if you hit with the Drain, you could have just as easily hit with an attack that would've been devastating to the target, at least according to the post to which I was responding. Yes, the Drain will make it easier for future attacks to hit, but you're still taking an extra action to make that damage happen. I'm not saying the Drain is ineffective, but it's probably not the end of the world (especially given the possibility of the Change Environment I go on to point out later).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DCV Drain

 

I'm surprised that no one has brought up an ability that can have a bigger direct affect on a targets DCV than a Drain: Entangle.

 

If it is constructed with ideal Advantages for a specific target it can have a good chance of hitting and still be hard to destroy immediately (and inflicting 1/2 DCV on the target unless I'm mistaken).

It can even be built with Advantages that keep external attacks from damaging it thus making it function as a means of making the target easier to hit and damage.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: DCV Drain

 

I'm surprised that no one has brought up an ability that can have a bigger direct affect on a targets DCV than a Drain: Entangle.

 

If it is constructed with ideal Advantages for a specific target it can have a good chance of hitting and still be hard to destroy immediately (and inflicting 1/2 DCV on the target unless I'm mistaken).

It can even be built with Advantages that keep external attacks from damaging it thus making it function as a means of making the target easier to hit and damage.

At least two people have mentioned Entagles (and Grabs), they just didn't go into the details...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DCV Drain

 

At least two people have mentioned Entagles (and Grabs)' date=' they just didn't go into the details...[/quote']

 

Ah.. my bad.

I hadn't been following the thread that closely.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DCV Drain

 

As an usual player in the same games Roy is in' date=' I think I can answer this. It's generally assumed that power defense and mental defense needs about the same level of justification as regular and resistant defenses. So if you can have "Tough Body 10rPD/10rED" you can have "Tough Body II 5 PowD" or "Mental Combat Training 5 MD." We also sometimes have PowD and MD treated more like base characteristics like PD and ED in some of more recent games[/quote']

 

I'd interpret the pricing of adjustment powers to be based on the assumption that power defense is not common, and certainly not universal. If the game changes those assumptions, of course it will change the value of adjustment powers. Flash is pretty useless of everyone has 12-15 Flash Defense in a 60 AP game too. If power defense is nearly universal, perhaps adjustment powers should be repriced on the basis that power defense is as common as PD/ED (basing this on the usual steps between PD and Power Defense, or rDEF and Power defense, on the AVAD chart).

[prestidigitator]

Re: DCV Drain

 

I'm surprised that no one has brought up an ability that can have a bigger direct affect on a targets DCV than a Drain: Entangle.

 

If it is constructed with ideal Advantages for a specific target it can have a good chance of hitting and still be hard to destroy immediately (and inflicting 1/2 DCV on the target unless I'm mistaken).

It can even be built with Advantages that keep external attacks from damaging it thus making it function as a means of making the target easier to hit and damage.

0 DCV, actually. So as long as it is strong enough to overcome Casual Strength, it'll leave them quite open for at least a moment (unless the GM allows Aborting to an attack for purposes of breaking out).