Complete Newcomer to the System

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Greetings, Everyone,

 

First, I should start to say that I am a complete newcomer to the hero system. I've been using GURPS and D&D and West End and World of Darkness for some time now; but none of them truly capture what I'm wanting to do. Truthfully, GURPS is about as close to a universal system as I've messed with thus far. Unfortunately, for different levels of game-play there are different rule-sets that have, in essence, been bolted onto the system. So, the HERO philosophy of "the same building blocks and rules are used to build everything in the game" is very appealing to me.

 

The problem is that I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the paradigm. Is this a common problem for newcomers? Where would you suggest that I start in order to learn the system? If it works as I'm hoping it will, I'm going to want to teach it to my group and use it as my default cinematic system. Is this too ambitious of a goal?

 

Lastly, I was curious about power levels. I've read that many people believe that the Hero System breaks down at lower levels (normals) of game-play. Is this true?

 

Thanks for the help

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

I think there are several posters here that love using HERO for Fantasy with a wide range of points (anywhere from 50-250) and others that prefer supers/Champions in a wide range (200-750+). Similar spreads for Star Hero, Steampunk, (insert genre), etc... It all depends on what genre you and your group want to explore that you haven't been able to in a satisfying way with other hard-coded systems.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

all the games I run are low powered and gritty and i like it especially for that.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

What part are you having trouble with? GURPS and HERO have a lot of similarities, but also a few differences; maybe we can start by showing which concepts are similar and then proceed to how they're different.

 

For instance, both GURPS and HERO are point-based systems where you buy Characteristics (Attributes in GURPS), Powers, Skills, Advantages (Talents and Perks in HERO), and take Complications (Disadvantages in GURPS or HERO 5e) to get points back. In both systems you roll 3d6 less than or equal to a target number to succeed at a Skill or hit in combat, and if you hit you roll some number of dice for damage.

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

I think where I'm having the biggest issue is wrapping my head around the "building blocks build everything" concept. Maybe I should build a few characters and let you guys take a look and offer some critiques?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Sure, go ahead. We're all happy to help!

[dsatow]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

 

Lastly, I was curious about power levels. I've read that many people believe that the Hero System breaks down at lower levels (normals) of game-play. Is this true?

 

Thanks for the help

 

IMHO, yes and no. If you take the exact numbers for all the values and then compare them to real life situations, then yes it doesn't work out. The best example of this is a boxing match. In a championship bout both boxers are said to be the best in the world, but if you create two identical boxers, each relatively tough and equal in stats, the bout doesn't last 3 minutes, let alone for several rounds.

 

On the other hand, if you disregard a strict interpretation that a turn is 12 seconds and just go for the feel of the combat, the game takes on a movie style feel to the action. Each boxer has several options. Does he block the next blow or does he jab? Should he roll with the punch? Can he stay on his feet long enough or will that lucky blow take him down?

 

I would suggest, to get a feel for the mechanics, to first start a game at the heroic level with no hit locations. In this way, you will learn how the combat works, how movement works, the basics of how to build characters, how skills work, etc.

 

Another idea is to to create simple champions characters, using either premade characters or character kitted together from HERO books and supplements. This can be a bit costly and I don't recommend it when you aren't sure you are going to like the game. If you like how things operate from the previous paragraph, I will say the next step is to create powers.

 

Creating powers is what I think gives HERO is bad rap. This is because HERO has a great deal of diversity in its power based does let you do just about anything. Once you get a handle on it, you'll be amazed at how much fun it is using the system, but I think its a big step.

 

If you do want to plunge into creating powers, I would suggest getting Hero Designer. Its a software piece tool which is sold by Hero Games to help create characters. Always indispensable is a person who knows the system in the game. Most veterans are a great help.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

I'd also recommend picking up the Champions Powers book. Besides being a book full of prebuilt powers to choose from, it also includes a short prose description of each one. Those can be extremely helpful in figuring out "what does this list of game mechanics do?"

[JmOz]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Okay, take a breath,

 

First things first, go buy the Hero system basic rules, this is the essence of hero, designed to help new players. It will help you ALOT

 

Second, make some characters, I would actualy recomend either some Fantacy characters, maybe with one or two signiture abilities (The Mage and Priest from D&D type games will help you create powers) or some early X-men style characters (Where you have cyclops has a simple Blast Power, and Angel can Fly, that's it). Then test them out in a couple of combat/training scenarioes. Once you have a few combats under your belt you will start to pick up on the simplicity of the system. AND ASK US FOR HELP AS YOU GO. We are extremly friendly and helpful around here, overall...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

IMO, the single most important trick to being successful w/ the HERO System is this:

 

Be able to reason backwards from what something DOES vs how it is DESCRIBED.

 

This is called "reasoning from effects". It is pretty much exactly the opposite of what almost every other game wants you to do.

 

If you can train yourself to buy into the idea that a mutant power blast, a gun, and an invocation of doom can all mechanically be exactly the same (or not if you prefer), you can use the system to run just about any kind of game with just about any kind of abilities or characters you like. That brings you to the second most important trick of the HERO System:

 

Know what it is you want and be willing to do the work to put it together yourself if need be.

 

If you have a vibrant imagination and the perseverance to put it all together, you can use the system to run just about any kind of game with just about any kind of abilities or characters you like. That brings you to the third most important trick of the HERO System:

 

Everything is relative; no model can be understood in a vacuum.

 

You can't really measure a given ability or character unto itself; it is only by seeing how it fits into a larger setting that you can really determine how effective it is. Conversely, as the GM, you need to know where you want the baseline, median, and ceiling to fall and then artfully arrange your campaign to make it so. If you can do this, you can use the system to run just about any kind of game with just about any kind of abilities or characters you like

[Checkmate]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Be able to reason backwards from what something DOES vs how it is DESCRIBED.

To expand on this some (because this really is the most important thing to wrap your head around when you're building characters), when you think about a character, don't just describe what the power or ability looks like or where it comes from, know what it does. For example, don't say "I want a character with really long hair that the character can control" That doesn't really help. I mean do they just make their hair stand on end, or are they able to grab things with it? If they can grab things, is it stronger than the arms? Can it be used as a whip? Think about what you want the power to accomplish, then think what mechanic will allow you to accomplish that.

Everything is relative; no model can be understood in a vacuum.

 

You can't really measure a given ability or character unto itself; it is only by seeing how it fits into a larger setting that you can really determine how effective it is. Conversely, as the GM, you need to now where you want the baseline, median, and ceiling to fall and then artfully arrange your campaign to make it so. If you can do this, you can use the system to run just about any kind of game with just about any kind of abilities or characters you like

This probably won't be a problem when you're first starting out, but it is something to keep in mind as you discuss with others. I'll tell you a story about how this point was driven home to me:

 

I've been playing Champions since the mid 80's and generally it was with the same group of people. A few years ago I started with a new group and we were creating characters. Mine was going to be a brick, we had a power armored character and a Medic type. I had the lowest Physical Defense and Energy Defense of the group, and a 4 SPD. In my experience, with the group I played with, I would have gotten creamed, and I was a little bummed that the GM made me stay like that (still think he should have let me lower the COM ). When we started playing though, I was the one that could probably take the most damage. With this group, the SPD's were generally lower, and my character had a high Recovery (20 to be exact). At one point I was down to 10 STUN, but the next Phase anyone acted on was Phase 12. My phase 12 action was to take a recovery, then I got my end of Phase 12 recovery, and just like that I was back up to 50 STUN.

 

So if you looked at my character by itself, low defenses low speed, you'd think he'd be a goner. However in that environment, where everyone had low SPD's allowing his high recovery to have a greater effect, he really was a tank.

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Ok... I think I'm good now to begin this journey. I bought the Designer, last night. Seems like a very complex and powerful piece of software... (excellent! ) A friend of mine, who's off in Japan for 6 months told me to use his hard drive which he has most of the rule books on PDF, until I decide if I want to make the investment... or he gets back from Japan. lol. It's 5th edition, tho. Hopefully it's not that critical to get 6th at this point.

 

So, let us begin.

[quozaxx]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Another suggestion you may think of doing is converting well-known characters over to Hero System.

 

For example: Take your favorite D&D/Gurp character and try converting them over to Hero System.

 

Another thing you could do is take a comic book character (if you like comic books) and try to covert them into Hero System terms. That method helped me a lot when I first started.

[JmOz]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

look on your friend's harddrive for a book called "Sidekick" it is the 5th edition version of Basic. Everything I said above goes for it (in the 5th edtion enviorment). Realise that Hero Designer does support 5th, but you need to make sure you are on the right template. Also look at the genre books, near the back should be a group of sample characters that can be used as starting points for you.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

I want to agree with all the people suggesting you build some sample chars and post them. Also remember that every group has their own "style" of HERO so people are only posting from their own experiences and styles.

 

For example: I've found at low point heroic games, that most characters tend to be built in a rather similar fashion. Most end up investing a majority of their points in Characteristics, have a little combat luck to not die, and rely on equipment to attack and defend (you better believe I'd like my sword and armor in a fantasy world, or my gun and kevlar vest in a dark champions one).

 

Because of this, be mindful when creating equipment. If you make a single weapon significiantly better than the others (or just more useful), expect to see several players want to use it. An example of this is that I played a Low Fantasy world where the Halberd was slightly better than any other weapon in the game (highest damage by 1 DC and it has 2m reach), as a result half the party used halberds while the other half used swords because they weren't strong enough to exploit the halberd (and didn't want to pay the points to generalize CSLs when they were strong enough).

 

Basically at low point totals, characters can be built very similar, and if a varity of equally good weapons is required if you want them to all use different ones. That's my only observation with low powered HERO.

[Susano]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Another suggestion you may think of doing is converting well-known characters over to Hero System.

 

For example: Take your favorite D&D/Gurp character and try converting them over to Hero System.

 

Another thing you could do is take a comic book character (if you like comic books) and try to covert them into Hero System terms. That method helped me a lot when I first started.

 

Or, take a look at how others did it: http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/archive.html

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

This probably won't be a problem when you're first starting out, but it is something to keep in mind as you discuss with others. I'll tell you a story about how this point was driven home to me:

 

I've been playing Champions since the mid 80's and generally it was with the same group of people. A few years ago I started with a new group and we were creating characters. Mine was going to be a brick, we had a power armored character and a Medic type. I had the lowest Physical Defense and Energy Defense of the group, and a 4 SPD. In my experience, with the group I played with, I would have gotten creamed, and I was a little bummed that the GM made me stay like that (still think he should have let me lower the COM ). When we started playing though, I was the one that could probably take the most damage. With this group, the SPD's were generally lower, and my character had a high Recovery (20 to be exact). At one point I was down to 10 STUN, but the next Phase anyone acted on was Phase 12. My phase 12 action was to take a recovery, then I got my end of Phase 12 recovery, and just like that I was back up to 50 STUN.

 

So if you looked at my character by itself, low defenses low speed, you'd think he'd be a goner. However in that environment, where everyone had low SPD's allowing his high recovery to have a greater effect, he really was a tank.

 

Wow, I hope the GM of that game is as humble as he is awesome, cuz otherwise he might get a big head

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Honestly, I'm overwhelmed by the outpouring of help and suggestions that you guys have shown in just the last 12 hours. Even if Hero isn't perfect, the support community more than makes up for it, and turns out to be a GREAT selling point for adopting the system, in and of itself.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Honestly' date=' I'm overwhelmed by the outpouring of help and suggestions that you guys have shown in just the last 12 hours. Even if Hero isn't perfect, the support community more than makes up for it, and turns out to be a GREAT selling point for adopting the system, in and of itself.[/quote']

 

We have our good days and our bad days, but over all we're a pretty agreeable crowd here in HERO land.

[Lethosos]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Even if Hero isn't perfect' date='[/quote']

Shhh! Don't let Steve Long hear you say that!

 

Granted, there's no such thing as perfection incarnate--but you can certainly model it very well in HERO!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Shhh! Don't let Steve Long hear you say that!

 

Granted, there's no such thing as perfection incarnate--but you can certainly model it very well in HERO!

 

...and there's always Extra-Dimensional Movement for all other cases.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

...and there's always Extra-Dimensional Movement for all other cases.

 

Must restrain....fist....of.....DEATH!!!!!!!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

Must restrain....fist....of.....DEATH!!!!!!!

Always happy to light up peoples' day

/ftr I am with you Killer - EDM as a solution other than EDM feels like a cop-out.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

You forgot Transform.

[Lucius]

Re: Complete Newcomer to the System

 

You forgot Transform.

 

In order to form a more perfect....: Severe Transform 10d6 (Imperfections into Perfections) (150 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4), No Range (-1/2) Real Cost 35

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I perfect each other