Newbie Question

[Leminkainen]

Greetings all,

 

I am trying to decide on a core rules system for a low fantasy campaign, and have been comparing various candidates (d6 Classic, GURPS, d20, etc.). I also just bought the 5th Ed HERO System rules and, of course, there is much to recommend it. In fact, after a cursory review, I would consider it the present frontrunner.

 

One thing that puts me off a bit, however, is what I believe some call stat "granularity" -- that is, the way the HERO system rules tend to minimize differences in basic stats by

subjecting them to division for various purposes. STR, for example, is effectively divided by 2.5 for purposes of figuring base damage, and other characteristics are generally divided by 5 for purposes of figuring base skill values and 3 for purposes of figuring combat values. So on the one hand, just to take a random example, the difference between a DEX 10 character and a DEX 11 character seems to be pretty much lost -- or at least sharply diminished. And on the other hand, there seems to be a needless layer of complexity introduced between basic stats and game mechanisms. No doubt, much of this is necessary to handle Super campaigns, which I'm sure the HERO System does very well. Nevertheless, from my perspective, while this is clearly a very powerful system, it just seems to lack a certain ... well ... "elegance" on the lower end of the power scale.

 

Now, I imagine most of you will advise me either to take my petty gripes and go back to my kiddy games or to design my own system. Fair enough. I mean no offense. And I apologize if this has all been hashed out before. I was just wondering whether anyone else had similar petty hang-ups. And if so, how you get past them.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Leminkainen

[Law Dog]

Re: Newbie Question

 

Originally posted by Leminkainen

 

 

One thing that puts me off a bit, however, is what I believe some call stat "granularity" -- that is, the way the HERO system rules tend to minimize differences in basic stats by

subjecting them to division for various purposes. STR, for example, is effectively divided by 2.5 for purposes of figuring base damage, and other characteristics are generally divided by 5 for purposes of figuring base skill values and 3 for purposes of figuring combat values. So on the one hand, just to take a random example, the difference between a DEX 10 character and a DEX 11 character seems to be pretty much lost -- or at least sharply diminished. And on the other hand, there seems to be a needless layer of complexity introduced between basic stats and game mechanisms. No doubt, much of this is necessary to handle Super campaigns, which I'm sure the HERO System does very well. Nevertheless, from my perspective, while this is clearly a very powerful system, it just seems to lack a certain ... well ... "elegance" on the lower end of the power scale.

 

Now, I imagine most of you will advise me either to take my petty gripes and go back to my kiddy games or to design my own system. Fair enough. I mean no offense. And I apologize if this has all been hashed out before. I was just wondering whether anyone else had similar petty hang-ups. And if so, how you get past them.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Leminkainen

 

No, we are definitely not offended by this because most of us acknowledge that it is one of the weak points of Hero at the lower end of the game. You are going to find certain stat numbers are so efficient that PCs are going to gravitate towards them.

The other big sticking point you might notice once you start playing is that if you are not careful, the magic system starts playing like superpowers. It can quickly get lopsided when you have a few agent level characters (warriors/rogues) and then a few normals with devestating powers (mages/clerics). Since you are running low fantasy though, I imagine that you will keep a tight reign on what spells the PCs have access to, so that they don't become lightning projecting damage hoses.

What do I personally do to correct these problems? Well, I don't use Hero for these genres because I feel that their are other systems out there that emulate the genre much better. Some folks are going to swear by Hero for any genre, but I personally, although I do love the system, feel it's more of a "right tool for the right job" type of problem.

Note - GURPS has just the opposite problem. It seems to work real well for lower level games, but ultimately tanks when it comes to Supers.

[Talon]

Take your petty gripes and go back to your kiddy games or design your own system!

 

Seriously, the granularity issue you point out does exist -- but I haven't found it to be an issue in the low-fantasy games I run. One reason is skill levels -- sure, stat rolls only range from 11- to 14-, but once you start buying skill levels, the range increases greatly. As GM, I make sure the range is relevant (by applying penalties and the like in a realistic fashion), so the players are encouraged to buy up their rolls.

 

The biggest advantage to using Hero for fantasy is that you can model whatever magic system you want to come up with. The biggest problem is that you have to do the work to create it.

[Alibear]

Welcome. We're a pretty reasonable bunch around here, mostly, if you're polite, we love to help and talk about our beloved game.

 

So onto the discussion.

Low powered fantasy? How low powered are you taking here? First level D&D level? Okay, i'm going to assume that is in fact what you are talking about, roughly 25point characters with a maximum of 25 in disadvantages? That is just 50 points to spend, if half of those ponts go on skills(roughly speaking) that leaves 25 points for characteristics.

You are going to see some pretty average, or specialised characters and the difference between 10 and 11 dex might indeed be the difference between 2 characters.

10 dex guy has 3cv and 11 or less dex roll.

11 dex girl has 4cv and 11 or less dex roll.

 

guy hits girl on 10 or less.

girl hits guy on 12 or less.

 

That is indeed a big difference, especially if and when other factors come into play, like heavy armour, dodging, weapon etc.

 

Guy tries to hit dodging girl on 7 or less.

girl tries to hit dodging boy on 9 or less.

 

Huge difference!

 

Other posters are more eloquent than me so, I'll pass the ball to.....

[Monolith]

Re: Newbie Question

 

Originally posted by Leminkainen

So on the one hand, just to take a random example, the difference between a DEX 10 character and a DEX 11 character seems to be pretty much lost -- or at least sharply diminished.

When playing the Hero at the Heroic Level each stat point tends to have some value. Those values only diminish at the Super Heroic Level of the game. Take your DEX example. What is the difference between having an 11 or 12 DEX? Nothing in terms of CV, but in terms of who goes first in a Phase quite a bit. The reasons someone would pay the points in a Heroic Level game to have a 16 DEX character (even though it does not affect CV) is so they can go before 15 or lower DEX characters. Going first in any game is important. Some games accomplish this with iniative rolls, other with higher stats.

 

Now when you look at STR you get a slightly different effect. In Heroic Level games weapons have STR Minimums. So a player might buy a 12 STR to take advantage of a weapon which requires a 12 STR. Does that mean it is not better to just buy the 13 STR and gain all the other perks? Not at all, but the HERO System is ultimately based around being able to design and define a character as you feel you want it to be. If d20 had the ability to allow players to define their characters exactly as they wanted them to be, without limiting stat potentials, there would be few Fighters with less than an 18 STR.

 

Every game system has certain stat plateaus where once you achieve it you are fundamentally better. The difference is that most game systems follow a straight approach (point for point). The HERO System follows it's own path to achieve these same effects. The fact that you divide some stats by 5 and some by 3 really does not matter because those divisions are only done at character creation and once recorded on the character sheet require no more thinking than where to look on the sheet to find the information.

[Monolith]

Re: Re: Newbie Question

 

Originally posted by Law Dog

What do I personally do to correct these problems? Well, I don't use Hero for these genres because I feel that their are other systems out there that emulate the genre much better. Some folks are going to swear by Hero for any genre, but I personally, although I do love the system, feel it's more of a "right tool for the right job" type of problem.

The strangest thing about HERO System players:

You walk into a room with 10 Hero players who do not know each other. 5 of them well swear that the HERO System only works well for lower powed "NCM" games. The other five will swear that the game only works well for higher powered "superhero" games. You just cannot win.

[Guest Keneton]

Don't forget Encumberance. A little Strength can go a long way when you are wearing Big Armor in Fantasy hero!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton

Don't forget Encumberance. A little Strength can go a long way when you are wearing Big Armor in Fantasy hero!

Yeah, I forgot about Encumberance. Each point of STR adds more weight the character can wear/carry (especially under the new rules). Those a pretty substantial weight breaks when you are talking the difference between 18 and 19 (that point there would be 40kg of additional lifting/carrying capacity).

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

 

I'll chime in but I do not have a lot of new comments...

 

I've used Hero almost exclusively for heroic level campaigns. I've run lots of Danger International campaigns (agents, detectives, X-files, Alien Legion, etc.) and several Fantasy Hero campaigns set in Harn. I like the stuff from Columbia. Anyway...

 

Yes...there are breakpoints that are more cost effective. For most of the stats ones that end in 3 and 8 are breakpoints. For DEX the numbers runs a bit different but the concept is the same. Does this mean the system does not work for Heroic level games? Hec no.

 

I guess my reasoning for using Hero is kinda weird for those not used to playing it regularly. I think the strengths of Hero far outweigh this weakness. For example, one of the reason I use Hero for fantasy is flexibility and control during character creation. The point setups means you can easily mix warriors, rogue types, and wizards without much effort. It also makes it REALLY fun for the PC to make characters.

 

I also want to impose pretty harsh rules for magic in my games because I also want low magic type settings. (I also want to avoid the "mystically enhanced fighter syndrome" but that is another discussion topic. ) Oh yeah...you can make up your own magic system. Um...pretty flexible.

 

I think you get the idea. If you want to see the guidelines I have used for fantasy they can be found on my web page. The link is below. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Chris Goodwin]

Leminkainen -- in fact everyone who has posted here so far --

 

Read this article. It talks about stat breakpoints and granularity in Hero. For instance, in GURPS characters have stats in the 10-15 range, which is six breakpoints inclusive. In HERO, for DEX you've got either three breakpoints (10, 13, 18 for DEX rolls and skills) or five breakpoints (for CV; 10, 11, 14, 17, 20), or 11 breakpoints (10 through 20, inclusive, for initiative). For STR you've got half dice (10, 13, 15, 18, 20) for five, or STR rolls (10, 13, 18) for three. For CON you've got either three (10, 13, 18) for CON rolls and stats or 11 (10 through 20) for being Stunned. And so on.

 

http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

 

Plus (not from the article) you've got eight Primary and six Figured Characteristics. With that many different stats you've got lots of ways to differentiate characters.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Alibear

Welcome. We're a pretty reasonable bunch around here, mostly, if you're polite, we love to help and talk about our beloved game.

 

So onto the discussion.

Low powered fantasy? How low powered are you taking here? First level D&D level? Okay, i'm going to assume that is in fact what you are talking about, roughly 25point characters with a maximum of 25 in disadvantages? That is just 50 points to spend, if half of those ponts go on skills(roughly speaking) that leaves 25 points for characteristics.

You are going to see some pretty average, or specialised characters and the difference between 10 and 11 dex might indeed be the difference between 2 characters.

10 dex guy has 3cv and 11 or less dex roll.

11 dex girl has 4cv and 11 or less dex roll.

 

guy hits girl on 10 or less.

girl hits guy on 12 or less.

 

That is indeed a big difference, especially if and when other factors come into play, like heavy armour, dodging, weapon etc.

 

Guy tries to hit dodging girl on 7 or less.

girl tries to hit dodging boy on 9 or less.

 

Huge difference!

 

Other posters are more eloquent than me so, I'll pass the ball to.....

 

I just wanted to add to this comment a little. And that is to say that if guy uses the 3 points that it would have cost him for that +1 DEX and puts them into STR, now he hits with 2 1/2 d6 or the optional 3d6-1 instead of 2. This may not seem like much of a difference, but then figure guy gets +1 pd for having 13 STR, and +2 STUN, and +1 REC. And since we're talking about a Fantasy game, you need to consider STR minimums on weapons. If they both use the same weapon and it requires 13 STR Min, then girl is at -1 because she isn't strong enough. It all comes out in the wash.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Chaosliege

I just wanted to add to this comment a little. And that is to say that if guy uses the 3 points that it would have cost him for that +1 DEX and puts them into STR, now he hits with 2 1/2 d6 or the optional 3d6-1 instead of 2. This may not seem like much of a difference, but then figure guy gets +1 pd for having 13 STR, and +2 STUN, and +1 REC. And since we're talking about a Fantasy game, you need to consider STR minimums on weapons.

And then the guy with the 11 DEX goes first, rolls a head or vitals shot, and Stuns, and then kills, the character before it can even draw its weapon.

[Lord Liaden]

One suggestion I've found to be useful in adding value to every point applies to Skill vs. Skill rolls: there's no mechanism given in the core rules to resolve ties, so in that case you could give the win to the character with the higher applicable Characteristic.

[Old Man]

Use Hero whichever Hero system Hero you Hero want.

 

heheh

 

Seriously, as long as you don't go the d20 route, you and your players will be happy. d20 is easier to learn but leaves that not-all-the-way-satisfied feeling in your gut. Especially when there is not a real difference at all between a stat at 8 and the same stat at 12.

[Leminkainen]

Wow! Thank you all for your thought-provoking replies. This board is a lot more active than I expected.

 

It's probably going to take me some time to digest everything you've written, but it clearly justifies a closer reading of the rules.

 

By the way, this afternoon I was actually contemplating grafting the HERO System powers system onto the d6 attribute and skill systems. d6, after all, appeals to me precisely because of the linear die progression -- there are no break points. On the other hand, that seems like an awfully perilous undertaking. And frankly, I'm tired of tinkering with rules. So thank you. You've given me hope that I may have finally found an RPG home.

 

Leminkainen

[Mole]

You guys are awesome! One of the reasons why I love HERO so much is its base of players. Eventhough I sometimes find myself cursing aloud while silently reading the Non-Gaming discussions, every Hero player I've met and everyone on the boards are pretty stand-up guys and gals. And situations like this prove every word. Thanks, guys.

 

Reward yourselves

http://web.mit.edu/patil/www/media/video/yatta.asf

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Mole

 

Reward yourselves

http://web.mit.edu/patil/www/media/video/yatta.asf

 

ok, i'm now very scared!!! be very careful, when you click on the link above....

[coach]

One thing that everyone forgot to mention is that the fact that the stats are not very granular is nearly immaterial to the gaming. For example, let's take one of the most common set of CHA:

 

STR 13

DEX 18

CON 13

 

Now these are all great numbers and extremely common. But so what. It just doesn't matter if everyone has the exact same numbers. I mean, who cares if one person can list 5 pounds more or less than another. It's just not that relevant.

 

Take those three stats above. They work equally well for a nice combat-mage, a great archer, or an amazing thief. They would also be fine for a master fencer. So, just because those four different characters all have the same STR, DEX, and CON, are they all the same? Of course not, they'd be totally different.

 

And really, if you think about it, that simulates real life pretty damn well. Minor physical differences between people are almost totally irrelevant. Think about it. I would guess that for most of you, strength-wise, you are able to lift within 15 pounds or so the same amount as the vast majority of your same-gender friend group. Of course, there's always a few who can lift more or less, but, I would bet that nearly everyone you hang out with of the same gender can lift nearly the same amount. Does this make you all the same person, or "character" as we say in gaming? Of course not.

 

So, my suggestion would just to be to ignore the "granularity".

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer

ok, i'm now very scared!!! be very careful, when you click on the link above....

 

OMG.. I wish I had read this warning before opening the link...

[ShadowRaptor]

Originally posted by Chaosliege

OMG.. I wish I had read this warning before opening the link...

 

me too...that was weird.

[Chaosliege]

It's kinda like a train wreck. The funny thing is, by the time it was over I was actually finding myself enjoying the song. I know, I need help....