I Bought It on Vbay...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth

 

I really liked all the ideas here. I've been trying to infuse a little more character into the faceless minions of supervillains and like the Radar O'Reilly-type character idea. We can always count on Hermit to come up with great ones.

 

Ah shucks Tweren't nothing.

 

Actually, if I came up with the "Great One" it should be Jackie Gleason as a Nest Leader

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Well, that depends. Physical Defense is often higher than Energy Defense for many supers, because of the difference in cost for buying up Strength compared to Constitution and deriving the Figured Defense Char. therefrom. Moreover, those blasters could be laser or other Killing Damage, which if against ED will usually be more effective than bullets. Heroes whose Missile Deflection only works up to bullets will be in trouble with blasters, as well.

 

Then we have the more exotic high-tech weapons based on NND or AVLD, which can bypass that Kevlar altogether. Speaking of which, since a Force Field has a lower Base Cost than Armor for the same Defense, you can often work the Advantages and Limitations on a FF so that it's more effective than Armor for the same cost, at least over the short term. For ex, does that Kevlar perchance have an Activation Roll?

 

I generally find that most PCs have PD and ED that are roughly comparable. Very few are like Obsidian with 30 PD and 20 ED. And when attacks are low relative to defenses such as agents vs supers, killing attacks become more valuable. 8-10d6 EBs have almost no chance of stunning the typical super, but I've been the victim enough 10 Body 50 Stun attacks from 2d6+1 RKAs in my gaming career. And the FN-FAL with +1 stun multiple is even worse. Also there is the chance of multiple hits with autofire attacks. Base 5 OCV for the agent, built in 1-2 from the assault rifle, and 1-2 CSLs from the agent and the chance for multiple hits isn't too horrible.

 

Very few PCs will stop with a 15 pt missile deflection in a Super campaign when for 5 pts more, they can start deflecting lasers and blasters.

 

As far as the exotic attacks go, those are generally the weapons that are cutting edge for Viper, not surplus. Viper may be willing to sell 10d6 blasters, but will they really be willing to sell off 5d6 NND neutrino blast guns?

 

Kevlar may or may not have an activation roll depending on whether the agent expects combat and whether he has a full suit including helmet and face plate.

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Hermit

Ah shucks Tweren't nothing.

 

Actually, if I came up with the "Great One" it should be Jackie Gleason as a Nest Leader

 

"One of these days...one of these days...BANG! ZOOM!...I'm destroying the moon, Alice!"

 

Sorry, had to be done

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

Very few PCs will stop with a 15 pt missile deflection in a Super campaign when for 5 pts more, they can start deflecting lasers and blasters.

 

Now that depends on whether your players alter the way they build their characters to fit their conception, or whether they alter their conception to the way they want to build their characters, doesn't it? I've seen plenty of 15 pt missile deflections in my time.

[MoonHunter]

VBay would have to be disguised

 

It would probably look like an online catalog for a "police seizure auction". Except there would be weapons for sale. It would allow bids by email. They would know if the person sending in the bid has the finances or was of an organization that might have the finances to buy things. It would be an invite only to be there for the auction, with a million or so, to be transftered as bond, to an account as an act of good faith.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

Now that depends on whether your players alter the way they build their characters to fit their conception, or whether they alter their conception to the way they want to build their characters, doesn't it? I've seen plenty of 15 pt missile deflections in my time.

 

In a completely unscientific study, I went through CKC. Out of 10 villains with missile deflection, 9 of them had it to all range attacks. Only Lodestone had it for bullets, and only ferrous bullets at that.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

In a completely unscientific study, I went through CKC. Out of 10 villains with missile deflection, 9 of them had it to all range attacks. Only Lodestone had it for bullets, and only ferrous bullets at that.

The real question is, out of the villains in CKC who had full missile deflection, how many had it where it didn't seem to be justified by the conception?

 

Figuring out whether the conception was tailored to the desired powers or the powers were tailored to the conception is difficult after the fact if the character's conception is one where min/maxing a particular power is warranted. It's a lot easier to spot cases where the conception does not really seem to call for min-maxing.

 

If my character can deflect bullets and energy beams with his hands, he'd better have super-tough skin/armour, and the defense powers to represent it. If he's a martial artist with normal skin, though, he probably shouldn't buy more than 10 points of missile deflection.

[Mr. Ooze]

Originally posted by Gary

Actually if I were a Hero, I would fear a standard assault rifle a lot more than a blaster. A FN-FAL or AK-47 is a lot better than a 8-10d6 energy blast. And 8/8 Kevlar is better than a standard 8/8 FF belt.

 

That's one of the problems I have with KA's currently. twenty or so agents with 2d6-1 autofire RKA's can flat take down most of any super team, with possible exception of the team brick, and even he is going to more than likely be con-stunned, and that's simply not to genre.

 

It gets even worse for characters who don't have a lot of reisistant defense, and count on missle deflection/high CV -- or the "not gettign hit" defense, as I call it. Sooner or later the dice are going to bite you in the ass, and off you go into negative body land...

 

It gets even uglier when you factor in millitary hardware, like the SAW or a Barrett "Light 50".

 

I think it's a bit strange when Superheros have no trouble taking out a team of super powered terrorists ( The Ultimates, in my current game.), yet they almost get completely wiped out by a group of Colombian drug runners with AK-47's and a couple of grenade launchers.

 

 

Threadjacking? What? Who? Me? ..... Oops.

[FenrisUlf]

Originally posted by winterhawk

"One of these days...one of these days...BANG! ZOOM!...I'm destroying the moon, Alice!"

 

Sorry, had to be done

 

ROFL!

 

And all this reminds me of a long-gone campaign where we had a pair of VIPER agents who were basically Laurel & Hardy in green.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Mr. Ooze

I think it's a bit strange when Superheros have no trouble taking out a team of super powered terrorists ( The Ultimates, in my current game.), yet they almost get completely wiped out by a group of Colombian drug runners with AK-47's and a couple of grenade launchers.

 

Yes, that would be incongruous. To be honest, I've never had that kind of situation occur. Mind you, I don't usually play Colombian drug runners and their ilk as fighting with military discipline and using coordinated tactics. Groups of agent-level soldiers with modern military hardware and tactical intelligence will be a credible threat to many supers, but I find it difficult to credit most criminals with that kind of savvy.

 

In any case, though, with the edge in Dexterity, Speed and often Movement that most supers have over normals, they can usually rip through several times their number of agent-level foes before they can get in that lucky shot if the supers use decent tactics themselves. I've had teams of Standard Supers pulverize tanks with coordinated attacks, avoiding their heavy but slow weapons through superior mobility.

 

As for bricks being Stunned by automatic weapons fire, I've found the Real Weapon Limitation useful for saying that these weapons just couldn't do that (and of course, the high-tech stuff lacks that Lim). Some GMs don't like to use it that way, though, and of course YMMV.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

The real question is, out of the villains in CKC who had full missile deflection, how many had it where it didn't seem to be justified by the conception?

 

Figuring out whether the conception was tailored to the desired powers or the powers were tailored to the conception is difficult after the fact if the character's conception is one where min/maxing a particular power is warranted. It's a lot easier to spot cases where the conception does not really seem to call for min-maxing.

 

If my character can deflect bullets and energy beams with his hands, he'd better have super-tough skin/armour, and the defense powers to represent it. If he's a martial artist with normal skin, though, he probably shouldn't buy more than 10 points of missile deflection.

 

Some villains, like Cheshire Cat, are fairly questionable. He deflects everything using a billy club.

 

It's just my experience that in a superheroic campaign, virtually everybody with missile deflection will buy it to the 20 pt level. CKC seems to agree with my experience.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Some villains, like Cheshire Cat, are fairly questionable. He deflects everything using a billy club.

 

Redefine it as an uncanny ability to dodge, or, for the character in question, teleporting out of the way at the last instant, and it makes a lot more sense. The billy club seems like a holdover from 1st Edition where missile deflection required a focus in its definition.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Redefine it as an uncanny ability to dodge, or, for the character in question, teleporting out of the way at the last instant, and it makes a lot more sense.

 

That's how I did it as well.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Mr. Ooze

That's one of the problems I have with KA's currently. twenty or so agents with 2d6-1 autofire RKA's can flat take down most of any super team, with possible exception of the team brick, and even he is going to more than likely be con-stunned, and that's simply not to genre.

 

It gets even worse for characters who don't have a lot of reisistant defense, and count on missle deflection/high CV -- or the "not gettign hit" defense, as I call it. Sooner or later the dice are going to bite you in the ass, and off you go into negative body land...

 

It gets even uglier when you factor in millitary hardware, like the SAW or a Barrett "Light 50".

 

I think it's a bit strange when Superheros have no trouble taking out a team of super powered terrorists ( The Ultimates, in my current game.), yet they almost get completely wiped out by a group of Colombian drug runners with AK-47's and a couple of grenade launchers.

 

 

Threadjacking? What? Who? Me? ..... Oops.

This isn't necessarily bad genre, of course, particularly for darker games. 20 or so skilled agents is a lotta points value, after all. And the +2 OCV from M-16s really does help. However, any halfway decent superhero in that kind of setting is gonna be able to bump their DCV above 10 while attacking, unless they have the PD to suck it down. And even bricks with 40PD? Yep, they can get stunned - bullet hits them in the eye, does no damage, but makes them go 'Ow!' and grab their eye for a bit in pain, losing an action. That's con-stunned. And generally, if less tough heroes get hit by bullets, they often just go down, unless they have armoured costumes. And then, they'll often be stunned.

 

However, bullets end up being more powerful than energy blasts in a few cases, and that's bad genre. They should remain dangerous, unless you have the stats to ignore them, but they shouldn't be /better/ than blasters. For me, the problem here is not the stats for guns, but the stun multiplier. I hate the 1-5 stun multiplier. In superhero games, I use a flat x2 multiplier for killing attacks. If you wanna stun someone, use an energy blast. Some other GMs use a x2 or x3 stun multiplier, decided by a 1-3 or 4-6 roll.

 

So, an FN-FAL does at most, in my game, 39 points of stun (+1 stun multiplier, 13 damage maxed out). This'll do some BODY damage to a regular not-tough hero, and even a buncha STUN. But in a game where the average defences are 25 or so, a high-CON hero won't even be stunned.

 

Not unless there are coordinated attacks, that is. Which you could expect if you get a special forces group going after heroes. But that 39 STUN is a rare thing. An average result (8 BODY, 24 STUN) would bounce off an average hero's defences. So, under half of the attacks penetrate, and prolly well under half of the attacks hit... so suddenly, only 5 of those 20 troops are actually doing damage to the heroes. Whereas 8-10d6 blasts will be a lot better.

[Mr. Ooze]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Yes, that would be incongruous. To be honest, I've never had that kind of situation occur. Mind you, I don't usually play Colombian drug runners and their ilk as fighting with military discipline and using coordinated tactics. Groups of agent-level soldiers with modern military hardware and tactical intelligence will be a credible threat to many supers, but I find it difficult to credit most criminals with that kind of savvy.

 

In any case, though, with the edge in Dexterity, Speed and often Movement that most supers have over normals, they can usually rip through several times their number of agent-level foes before they can get in that lucky shot if the supers use decent tactics themselves. I've had teams of Standard Supers pulverize tanks with coordinated attacks, avoiding their heavy but slow weapons through superior mobility.

 

As for bricks being Stunned by automatic weapons fire, I've found the Real Weapon Limitation useful for saying that these weapons just couldn't do that (and of course, the high-tech stuff lacks that Lim). Some GMs don't like to use it that way, though, and of course YMMV.

 

It was a bad day all around.

 

First, The PC's made a few tactical errors. Nothing insanely bad, but enough to put them into catch-up mode from the start.

 

Then the dice went really cold for them.

 

Then the bad guys started getting very good rolls. One of the bad guys with the grenade launcher

took out the MA with one grenade.

 

It irks me when a combat goes from "winable" to "I hope we get out of here with our skins" due to a couple of bad rolls. I hate that when It happens to me as a player, so I can understand how annoying it is for everyone when I'm GM'ing.

 

But. What can you do? Dice are supposed to be random.

[Lord Liaden]

I can only tell you what I do on those occasions: fudge the lousy rolls.

 

It's an infrequent occurence, mind you, but if my players are running their characters well, tactically and in roleplaying, and they're in a situation that they should handle relatively easily from a game mechanic and genre perspective, I won't let the random quirks of the dice get in the way of that. If they've played really well and earned a hard-fought win, I'll sometimes fudge a great roll by the villains that would snatch that victory from them. OTOH, if the game has built up excitingly to the climactic confrontation with the Big Bad, and someone rolls a phenomenal Damage total that will cream him and spoil the climax of the game, I'll give the villain some impromptu "plot defense" to reduce the damage.

 

I typically roll behind a screen, so the players can't tell when I'm cutting them a break or diffusing their flukey luck, although I've explained to them that I'll do so on rare occasions when I think it's warranted. My players trust that I'll only do it when it will enhance the enjoyment of the game, which may make me a lucky GM.

[Supreme Serpent]

I've been considering trying out a house rule of "If your applicable resistant defense is 2x or more the body rolled on the KA, the KA does no damage, regardless of STUN rolled."

 

That way, light KA's can still put a hurt on lightly armored characters, but the Thing can ignore small arms fire without having to buy extra defenses "only vs bullets" or such.

 

I know there's issues in the mid-defense range, but I just want a way to limit the effect of the stun lottery.