Space fightercraft in RPGs.

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

I have two problems with drones

 

1) I don't think that people will ever totally trust truly intelligent AI's enough to allow them the kind of weapons that should be on a fighter/drone craft

 

2) Remote control drones face issues of jamming the control signals, hacking the controls, speed of light issues if drones missions take place too far away from the control transmitter.

 

There may be really good reasons that 1-2 seat fighters are used in a SciFi setting. Cultural reasons might overcome 'rational" reasons.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

The jamming/hacking issues are mitigated by the use of laser-based communications: they can't be jammed, and in order to hack the signal you'd have to intercept it, which would be next to impossible. The speed of light issue isn't so easy: if you go with laser-comms, there will be a light-speed delay.

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

The jamming/hacking issues are mitigated by the use of laser-based communications: they can't be jammed' date=' and in order to hack the signal you'd have to intercept it, which would be next to impossible. The speed of light issue isn't so easy: if you go with laser-comms, there [i']will[/i] be a light-speed delay.

 

of course there are LOS (Line of Sight) issues with laser coms. So the ships cant go behind objects or control is lost, and you need good tracking to keep the com lasers on target.

[dmjalund]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

in space other objects are scarce

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

in space other objects are scarce

 

ok, then the tactic becomes to put enough laser reflective crap between the carrier and my ships that the remote control becomes erratic. Depending on range that can be easy or hard

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

I would think that a Space Fighter would be accompanied by drones of its own that follow along with the fighter and give it defensive and offensive support. Laser comm all the way of course. With a full suite of sensor equipment for Recon purposes. And the ability to cloak to avoid detection. Small objects in space are easily missed.

 

I think the best use of fighters in space combat would be as defense for very large capitol ships that have the space to carry many of them. If the enemy gets too close (within a few hundred KM?) you drop fighters armed with Nukes and EMP bombs (to disable enemy craft of course) then use the fighters to keep away any fighters or drones your enemy throws at you.

[Cancer]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

ok' date=' then the tactic becomes to put enough laser reflective crap between the carrier and my ships that the remote control becomes erratic. Depending on range that can be easy or hard[/quote']

 

Actually, anything that's sufficiently optically thick at the wavelength of the laser will do. An incandescent explosion fireball will do it briefly (on a human timescale; this may not seem so brief on a data-transmission timescale), if the fireball intercepts the laser.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

"Nothing is fool proof to a persistent enough fool."

 

ANY device, gadget, tactic, theory, defense, offense, countermeasure, deterrent, or response can be outdone by the human mind. We could argue for hours about the plausibility of just about anything, as that is how our brains work; we solve problems.

 

So, in my campaign setting, and in my random in-expert thought experiments, I see drones as being constantly "human augmented" - AI programming but with constant human supervision.

 

How far away said drone could operate would entirely depend on mission parameters and "chance for SNAFU." Risk assessment and all

[Cancer]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

As is said in one of the Laws of Stupidynamics: The probability of predicting correctly in total ignorance is zero.

[austenandrews]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

There's no such thing as total ignorance. You can always find someone more ignorant than you previously thought possible.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

There's no such thing as total ignorance. You can always find someone more ignorant than you previously thought possible.

 

That's because the "i" in "ignorance" is actually the square root of -1.

[phookz]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

ok' date=' then the tactic becomes to put enough laser reflective crap between the carrier and my ships that the remote control becomes erratic. Depending on range that can be easy or hard[/quote']

 

That's an interesting idea, a form of chaff-like countermeasure. This of course has the downside that space is big, so getting enough out there to provide an effective block is going to be difficult. But assuming that there were a way to provide some blocking, at least for a limited area, this could be used tactically.

 

One way to get around this chaff would be to have relay nodes for the laser comms. I like the idea of this - cruisers dropping relay drones who's primary purpose is to provide a relay network to get indirect LOS with fighter drones. This becomes another tactical element of a larger deployment strategy. For well entrenched areas, like occupied systems and whatnot there would already be a mesh of relay drones in place just in case. This provides an advantage to the home team.

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

That's an interesting idea, a form of chaff-like countermeasure. This of course has the downside that space is big, so getting enough out there to provide an effective block is going to be difficult. But assuming that there were a way to provide some blocking, at least for a limited area, this could be used tactically.

 

One way to get around this chaff would be to have relay nodes for the laser comms. I like the idea of this - cruisers dropping relay drones who's primary purpose is to provide a relay network to get indirect LOS with fighter drones. This becomes another tactical element of a larger deployment strategy. For well entrenched areas, like occupied systems and whatnot there would already be a mesh of relay drones in place just in case. This provides an advantage to the home team.

 

Yeah, but it gets to the point where one has to ask. Isn't there a point where putting enough lifesupport for a couple of hours of operation and a cockpit be easier? I mean the pilots aren't going to spend weeks in their fighters, they don't need sanitary facilities. They just need enough atmosphere so they can operate. I guess one could argue that it would also require inertial dampeners (if available), though good training and G-suits could be good enough.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Yeah' date=' but it gets to the point where one has to ask. Isn't there a point where putting enough lifesupport for a couple of hours of operation and a cockpit be easier? I mean the pilots aren't going to spend weeks in their fighters, they don't need sanitary facilities. They just need enough atmosphere so they can operate. I guess one could argue that it would also require inertial dampeners (if available), though good training and G-suits could be good enough.[/quote']

 

The answer is, as usual, "It depends." How big/expensive is a laser comm relay node? If they're relatively small or cheap, then that's the way to go. They also tolerate G-forces quite well.

 

Another point: if you've got a 'fleet in being' dispersed through your local space, and each spacecraft is already equipped with laser comm receivers and transmitters, then it's capable of acting as a repeater, so the relay network is a 'sunk cost' to begin with -- it's already there, and failing to use it would be a waste of resources. A space fleet should have something like this for backing up its tactical comms channels, whether it needs to control any drones or not. That capability would be a bonus.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Yeah' date=' but it gets to the point where one has to ask. Isn't there a point where putting enough lifesupport for a couple of hours of operation and a cockpit be easier? I mean the pilots aren't going to spend weeks in their fighters, they don't need sanitary facilities. They just need enough atmosphere so they can operate. I guess one could argue that it would also require inertial dampeners (if available), though good training and G-suits could be good enough.[/quote']

 

The problem with that is that if you lose the carrier and don't have another place to land the fighter, the pilot (a valuable military asset, especially if he's experienced) is doomed. It's not like he can ditch into the ocean to be picked up later after the fighting is done.

 

You'll have to hope you have enough air to make it to a habitable planet in the system (and that the cockpit can survive re-entry) if you want any chance to survive at all.

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Point made, but of course Carriers are never operated alone. They always have a number of escorts along with them. It would stand to reason that if the Carrier cannot carry out recovery operations, that the escorts could.

 

Also just because someone on a Wet Navy carrier can ditch into the water, doesn't mean that there is someone available to rescue said pilot. The Ocean is a really big place. Also there more than one life form in the water that think that we are delicious or at least nutritious.

[phookz]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Why not both? How about semi-autonomous drones that have AI and advanced flocking algorithms - they are assigned a meatbag operated fighter to act as wingmen and support. The pilot can assign targets for the drones and/or keep them as his personal wingmen. I could imagine scenarios where pilots had several drones that normally flocked on him as lead unless assigned specific tasks. I would think they would work as both offense and defense for the pilot.

 

I like the idea. I think in the real world that long before we're that advanced AI will be to the point that drones would out-fly any human. I'm not sure that's what I'd want in my fiction or games, however.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

I think in the real world that long before we're that advanced AI will be to the point that drones would out-fly any human. I'm not sure that's what I'd want in my fiction or games' date=' however.[/quote']

 

Well, if you want to be realistic the AIs are probably the old ones who will be in space long-term in the first place. It's hard to find a case for sending a man to do a robot's job.

[Tasha]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Well' date=' if you want to be realistic the AIs are probably the old ones who will be in space long-term in the first place. It's hard to find a case for sending a man to do a robot's job.[/quote']

 

If we can get past cultural biases against "the other" enough to trust AI's with weapons then yeah.

 

I have to wonder what cost to our psychology would having AI that could run our wars with little to no human involvement will have. (I know that this question is off topic).

[phookz]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

In most fiction the human's don't seem to mind it as much as the AI

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

If we can get past cultural biases against "the other" enough to trust AI's with weapons then yeah.

 

I have to wonder what cost to our psychology would having AI that could run our wars with little to no human involvement will have. (I know that this question is off topic).

 

In a way, it's related to the topic. The main reason for having small space-fighters in a setting is mostly psychological anyway. Whether they're 'realistic' or not, people like stories about 'fighter jocks' in space. Stories about AI's fighting each other while their programmers sit in the command center and watch just won't grab the audience.

[Escafarc]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

If we can get past cultural biases against "the other" enough to trust AI's with weapons then yeah.

 

I have to wonder what cost to our psychology would having AI that could run our wars with little to no human involvement will have. (I know that this question is off topic).

Hopefuly it doesn't turn out like the Star Trek episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Hopefuly it doesn't turn out like the Star Trek episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

 

Was that the one where the AI's ran simulated attacks and people who were 'killed' in the simulation voluntarily turned themselves in for execution?

[Escafarc]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

Was that the one where the AI's ran simulated attacks and people who were 'killed' in the simulation voluntarily turned themselves in for execution?

 

Yes it is.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Space fightercraft in RPGs.

 

In a way' date=' it's related to the topic. The main reason for having small space-fighters in a setting is mostly psychological anyway. Whether they're 'realistic' or not, people [i']like[/i] stories about 'fighter jocks' in space. Stories about AI's fighting each other while their programmers sit in the command center and watch just won't grab the audience.

 

Well, true for TV / movies, I'm sure. But not so true - necessarily - for RPG's, or books.

 

In the case of RPG's, players like to "do stuff," "win," "outsmart the GM," "game the system," etc. I could certainly see a player having a ball with the AI Automaton Followers written down on his or her character sheet. In fact one of the characters in my short-lived run of my Star HERO Campaign wanted to work towards exactly that.

 

As for Carriers, laser comms, etc? Again, I would think light speed lag is your primary limitation for drones vs. manned craft. You would have to have some human controllers in relatively close proximity to the drones to do anything more complicated than what your AI is capable of, and / or what it is allowed to do. And while space is big, it will be difficult to hide the location of your fleet or even the drones themselves, so your enemy doing some maths to work out where your laser signals are traveling through should not be too difficult.

 

But this spawns another idea: Low albedo semi ballistic drones - fire them toward your target, they are inert and travel with minimal or no thrust to avoid detection, then they activate when near the target.