Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

[gojira]

What would you charge to make Roll With the Punch a purchasable Martial Arts maneuver?

 

I pretty much pulled a number out of my hat and said "4 points." Anybody see a problem with that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Does it add anything above the standard Roll With A Punch? Like Martial BLock changing the modifiers to +2/+2.

 

I assume you're trying to purchase it to allow for Martial CSLs to be used with it then? Since anyone can try and Roll and with no other added benefit, I'd actually place the cost at 3 Points.

[gojira]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Since anyone can try and Roll and with no other added benefit

 

 

No, RwtP is an optional maneuver. Anyone can't use it unless the GM says "this is available to anyone in my game." I'm saying, "Hey, how about I make it a martial arts maneuver that you have to pay for."

 

I'm trying for a low powered modern game, and rolling with the punch sounded like something you'd have to actually be trained to do. Untrained folks just get slugged hard and have to take it.

 

So assuming that you can't get it without paying for it, what's it worth? I realize I'm quibbling over one point giver or take, but I thought I'd just ask as the discussion is sometimes interesting.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

If I remember correctly, Roll with the Punch must follow either a dodge or a block maneuver. All it does is reduce the damage from a Normal Attack (mainly hand to hand attacks, i.e. Punches and kicks) so its fairly limited in scope. I would probably charge 3pts for it. I would also make it an exclusive basis so it couldn't be built into an offensive maneuver.

[gojira]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

If I remember correctly' date=' Roll with the Punch must follow either a dodge or a block maneuver.[/quote']

 

 

No, the other way around. RwtP must not follow a (unsuccessful) Dodge or Block.

 

 

All it does is reduce the damage from a Normal Attack (mainly hand to hand attacks, i.e. Punches and kicks) so its fairly limited in scope. I would probably charge 3pts for it. I would also make it an exclusive basis so it couldn't be built into an offensive maneuver.

 

 

RwtP does work like Block, you have to make an Attack roll vs. the attacker's OCV. Hmm, three points might be more fair at that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Either way, 3Pts is all I think it's worth. You can only do it against one attack (unlike Block), you get a -2 OCV to do it, and must have a 1/2 Phase available to abort to.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

The main problem with this idea is that Roll with the Punch is an extremely niche manuever that is rarely useful. Not never useful, but I've only seen it used a handful of times (and I do allow all optional manuevers by default, and we do see the more useful ones like Set, Spread, Brace, etc used frequently). It's just not really worth 3 points. Maybe 1 point, or maybe 3 points for RWTP that gave +2 OCV (since martial manuevers are supposed to be at least 3 points).

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Yeah, I would say a "Martial Roll with Punch" would need to offer some benefit over a normal RWP maneuver. OCV bonus, or better at reducing damage, etc.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

agreed

 

buying extra martial maneuvers can get costly since only one maneuver can be used at a time

 

the advantage to roll with the punch is that it can be aborted

 

both base dodge and block start at 0 when calculating their martial versions

 

so base 0 roll with the punch is at -2 OCV

2 points can but that up to 0 with +2 OCV

2 more points adds a third point of OCV (addition OCV beyond 2 cost double)

so for

4 points a character can buy roll with the blow at +1 OCV

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Normally RwtP is -2 OCV block that you can do after you have been hit (and before damage). Martial RwtP should probably be 0 OCV and cost 3 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

It looks like a 3 point RWTP with 0 OCV is the general consensus. With that in mind, I'd suggest chucking the 3 point minimum rule and allowing characters to buy the basic maneuver for 1 point (3 - 2 for the -2 OCV).

 

From Gojira's comments, he doesn't want it to be automatic, so you have to spend something. 1 point seems reasonable. For my purposes, I'd be inclined to say "heroic characters, all PC's included, can use the maneuver, but most NPC's cannot, absent combat training or being at a similar level to the PC's in the game world". Actually, denying access to certain combat maneuvers to normals eliminates a lot of the "this is a ridiculous outcome of this mechanic" complains I often hear directed at some of the maneuvers.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Just keep in mind that "rolling with the punch" is as much an ingrained reaction as "blocking" or "dodging" are. It does not require training, your body does it naturally, to an extent.

 

I won't tell you not to charge a point for the basic maneuver, but it really isn't all that useful and again your players just knowing it is an option won't necessarily mean they will use it every time they get hit. They would be stupid to do so as they would never get an offensive action if they did.

[gojira]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Thanks for all the comments guys. I might have to think this one over. I'll consult the books one more time about the exact mechanics, I may have been a bit unclear on how many times you can do this. I wasn't thinking about being able to do it only once.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

You can only do it once per 1/2 phase action; you have to have a 1/2 phase action (either held, or an upcoming action you can abort to.) And using said phase for this loses you a phase for attacks. Same with block and dodge; martial or otherwise. This is why defensive strike and such are great options - raise your DCV to avoid getting hit while still having an action to attack with.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

Just keep in mind that "rolling with the punch" is as much an ingrained reaction as "blocking" or "dodging" are. It does not require training, your body does it naturally, to an extent.

 

I won't tell you not to charge a point for the basic maneuver, but it really isn't all that useful and again your players just knowing it is an option won't necessarily mean they will use it every time they get hit. They would be stupid to do so as they would never get an offensive action if they did.

 

always thought "roll with the blow" made sense after a failed bodge or block

 

if anything roll should be exclusive to following block or dodge

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

always thought "roll with the blow" made sense after a failed bodge or block

 

if anything roll should be exclusive to following block or dodge

 

With a failed dodge you can literally dodge right into the attack if you mis-read the opponents actions. With blocking you are generally either deflecting a blow away from yourself or sometimes just blatantly trying to stop the blow with a less sensitive body part (like interposing your arm to protect your face). Neither situation lends itself particularly well to "roll with the punch". Unless you're a trained fighter I'd argue that trying to dodge or block would drastically reduce your chance to minimize the strike force taken. You can only do so much in the 1/2 second it takes to throw a punch...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

always thought "roll with the blow" made sense after a failed bodge or block

 

if anything roll should be exclusive to following block or dodge

 

from 6e2 page 88:

 

ROLL WITH A PUNCH

Roll With A Punch allows a character to take less damage from a HTH attack. This Maneuver is unique because a character may perform it after he’s been struck by an opponent’s attack (i.e., after the opponent’s Attack Roll succeeds, but before he rolls damage).

 

...

 

A character may Abort to Roll With A Punch. However, he cannot do so if he’s unable to act or Abort to an Action. For example, if he’s tried to Dodge or Block the attack and failed, he cannot Roll With A Punch because he’s now unable to act or Abort. A character cannot Roll With A Punch after an unsuccessful Block or Dodge, whether he Aborted to the Block or Dodge or not.

[RexMundi]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

There have been real fighters that have made careers out of being able to "Roll with a Punch" to a level exceeding that of the instinctive go limp and hope for the best. My best experience with this personally is with boxing where not only do you train to be able to take blows that would cripple or kill folks not in condition (same holds true for MMA, especially in body conditioning which is why all good MMA guys are as thick as trees) but you also learn, how to roll with the blow, how much NOT to roll with it as well. It's tricky.

 

In my own game I actually have it as a 5 point Martial Maneuver, and it will also protect against killing damage as well so I get my Hong Kong Action theater resistance without having to resort to making a power. Functions much like the standard optional rule other wise, with the same elements as a block, but exclusive to following a failed block or dodge.

 

~Rex

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

....

In my own game I actually have it as a 5 point Martial Maneuver, and it will also protect against killing damage as well so I get my Hong Kong Action theater resistance without having to resort to making a power. Functions much like the standard optional rule other wise, with the same elements as a block, but exclusive to following a failed block or dodge.

 

~Rex

 

That actually sounds more like a limited form of Damage Reduction (linked to Block/Dodge, Requires a Roll, etc...).

By RAW, just making the attempt to Block or Dodge ends a character's Phase as they are both considered 'Attack Actions'.

[randian]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

What would you charge to make Roll With the Punch a purchasable Martial Arts maneuver?

I wouldn't. I'd make it PD/ED, Resistant Protection, Damage Reduction, or Damage Negation, with appropriate limitations.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

always thought "roll with the blow" made sense after a failed bodge or block

 

if anything roll should be exclusive to following block or dodge

 

You've run into the wall of Mechanic vs Special Effect.

 

The Block Mechanic isn't the only thing that can "look like a block" ... Roll With The Punch can look like you're doing some form of blocking maneuver, without performing a Block Mechanic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

You've run into the wall of Mechanic vs Special Effect.

 

The Block Mechanic isn't the only thing that can "look like a block" ... Roll With The Punch can look like you're doing some form of blocking maneuver, without performing a Block Mechanic.

 

And with it being the only manuever that can be aborted to AFTER the attack roll is made it's kind of surprising there haven't been as many threads on it as good ol' Dive For Cover.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

There are a lot of points being made about Roll with the Punch not being available after a dodge or block.

 

It is rattling about my head but why not allow a character to abort and try a block AND a roll with the punch at the same time. Appropriate penalties like with Multiple attack, so the character is less likely to block but if he does not he has a chance of reducing the damage taken...

 

Doc

[RexMundi]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

That actually sounds more like a limited form of Damage Reduction (linked to Block/Dodge, Requires a Roll, etc...).

By RAW, just making the attempt to Block or Dodge ends a character's Phase as they are both considered 'Attack Actions'.

 

The whole point is to not make it a power. The set up I put together isn't any more a power then say, Offensive Strike, being +X amount of d6 Hand Attack. A lot of times folks run straight for powers when they don't have to though I do understand that's a lot of fun for some folks and of course, quite legal as well.

 

Rolling with a punch is something you do when you do not, or fail to block or dodge though. In order to do it correctly, there's actually some resistance involved with it as well, otherwise, enhancing whiplash is counter productive to staying concious. As for the ending of a phase, I still have it set up as a half phase action rule as well, so if they guy moved he's screwed, and it being usable at all is one of the resons I have it cost 5 points and build in an abort element.

 

If I were to build it as a power I would build it as an activated by some roll form of Damage Negation, since that fits the physics of it a bit more, but again, that being said I like my Martial Arts heroes to have as few "power builds" as possible. That gives me the difference of someone like Karnak the Shatterer, smashing open a fault line in a mountain so they can launch the city to the moon, and Shang Chi, Master of Kung Fu, who has not a single bit of Super Human at all, yet, still demolishes a Doom Bot with his bare hands (albeit, at a price)....

 

Hence, house ruled it. Either way even with just using the basic Roll with the Punch optional maneuver, it helps keep the squishy folk alive.

 

~Rex

[Armitage]

Re: Roll With The Punch: Martial Arts?

 

The Advanced Player's Guide, p. 39, has a section on converting the Optional Combat Maneuvers to Martial Arts Maneuvers.

The book suggests 3 points for Roll With A Punch.