Invincible

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

Was the planetary move through a plot device moment of high drama or something that's likely to be repeated/a major aspect of the character?

[casualplayer]

Re: Invincible

 

Was the planetary move through a plot device moment of high drama or something that's likely to be repeated/a major aspect of the character?

 

He chased a blast from Space Racer, a blast that probably destabilized the planet's crust, and he had help from his dad and IIRC Allen the Alien. It was a stunt but the three of them did crack a planet.

 

The more I think about it I think Mark does just have Physical Damage Reduction at huge levels, probably 12-15d6, and if you are capable of topping that then you can hurt him normally. I think he bleeds in many fights just so you don't feel he is completely, well, invincible.

 

I also think that Viltrumites have a genetic tendency toward megalomania and only Mark's mother's influence has minimized that in Mark and Oliver. But it still rears its ugly head every so often.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

Well, I'd say it's not likely to be repeated by Mark ever.

 

When he destroyed Viltrium, he had help from two other very powerful Viltrumites (Thaedus and Omni-man, the former now dead). Space Racer also shot the planet with his gun. The beam from the gun can seemingly blast shoot through anything, so it's like a hand held Death Star really. It wouldn't have been powerful enough to destroy the plant on it's own, but it could have shot a hole through it I gather.

 

However, I believe Thragg threatened to do the same thing to Earth in retribution. I'm trying to remember... he certainly threatened earth, but can't recall the exact wording of the threat. But he would have also been able to call upon the help of other Viltrumites to get that job done, so not sure if he would have done it single handed either.

 

Though as I think about it, I seem to recall Nolan saying something that alluded to the fact that Viltrumites have destroyed plants that way before.... hmm... would need to reread some issues to be sure...

[dsatow]

Re: Invincible

 

Just ignore this post, something in me just wants to type this

 

Impregnate Female: Transform to pregnant female, 1d6 culmulative, extra time (5 minutes to 20 minutes though this might be an advantage), restrainable, 1/2 DCV, Inobvious Power Effects (effect is pleasurable). Transform can be reverted by aborting pregnancy or giving birth.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Invincible

 

Well, I'd say it's not likely to be repeated by Mark ever.

 

When he destroyed Viltrium, he had help from two other very powerful Viltrumites (Thaedus and Omni-man, the former now dead). Space Racer also shot the planet with his gun. The beam from the gun can seemingly blast shoot through anything, so it's like a hand held Death Star really. It wouldn't have been powerful enough to destroy the plant on it's own, but it could have shot a hole through it I gather.

 

However, I believe Thragg threatened to do the same thing to Earth in retribution. I'm trying to remember... he certainly threatened earth, but can't recall the exact wording of the threat. But he would have also been able to call upon the help of other Viltrumites to get that job done, so not sure if he would have done it single handed either.

 

Though as I think about it, I seem to recall Nolan saying something that alluded to the fact that Viltrumites have destroyed plants that way before.... hmm... would need to reread some issues to be sure...

 

Well, if you sub out their STR for their mass, and calculate a reasonable velocity factor for their speed(faster than most asteroid impacts, I'm assuming), then you could get some pretty scary damage levels, especially for a collaborative strike.

[Christopher]

Re: Invincible

 

He's able to survive a move-through on a planet' date=' and also able to make a successful move-through on a planet. Heaps of speed and resilience, but then again when Viltrumites tussle the blood starts to fly. Maybe Damage Reduction Only versus Non-Viltrumites for a crazy meta-solution.[/quote']

One way to make this without getting crazy with defenses, is to not use Move-Through.

HSMA has the Rules to make a Martial Maneuver that get's the V/6 d6 bonus damage, but does not recives half/full damage yourself.

Or you could make a Megastrong HKA. That is Linkend (Proportional) to a Movement Power (so you must use "full power", or maximum speed at maximum NCM-Speed).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

One way to make this without getting crazy with defenses, is to not use Move-Through.

HSMA has the Rules to make a Martial Maneuver that get's the V/6 d6 bonus damage, but does not recives half/full damage yourself.

 

One could also argue that they have Flight with the Variable Advantage set to Useable as Tunneling to go through the planet.

 

However, he still has to have the defenses to fly through a planets molten core essentially unscathed. This is oughly equivalent to flying through the Sun's photosphere, so that would require a minimum of 35 ED, Hardened.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

Well' date=' if you sub out their STR for their mass, and calculate a reasonable velocity factor for their speed(faster than most asteroid impacts, I'm assuming), then you could get some pretty scary damage levels, especially for a collaborative strike.[/quote']

 

I'm not going to blow up your planet, I'll just impact it until I've tossed up enough dust to bring on the second Ice Age...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Invincible

 

One of the problems with modeling fictional characters particularly comic book character for me is that their portrayals are no where near as consistent as a character sheet. Writer's fiat drives allot of things that if you applied them literally in game terms could lead to problems.

 

This is why, as a character write up specialist, I hunt and kill comicbook writers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Invincible

 

One of the problems with modeling fictional characters particularly comic book character for me is that their portrayals are no where near as consistent as a character sheet. Writer's fiat drives allot of things that if you applied them literally in game terms could lead to problems.

 

Superman in the 60s once destroyed an empty solar system by sneezing. Granted it was under the spell of Mxy, but still...

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

Just ignore this post, something in me just wants to type this

 

Impregnate Female: Transform to pregnant female, 1d6 culmulative, extra time (5 minutes to 20 minutes though this might be an advantage), restrainable, 1/2 DCV, Inobvious Power Effects (effect is pleasurable). Transform can be reverted by aborting pregnancy or giving birth.

 

The bolded part should require a skill roll :-D

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

Superman in the 60s once destroyed an empty solar system by sneezing. Granted it was under the spell of Mxy' date=' but still...[/quote']

 

There are parts of the 60s that even the Man of Steel doesn't remember clearly...

[Christopher]

Re: Invincible

 

The bolded part should require a skill roll :-D

But that fact might not be obvious for some users.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

I was always a little curious about Conquest's arm. I got the impression that Viltrumites do regenerate' date=' so I think his injury must have been something unusual. I don't think Robert Kirkman ever explained but did once comment, "A Viltrumite with a cybernetic arm! What's that about?" [/quote']

 

Like I said, I'm pretty sure they can reattach lost limbs, but not actually regrow them.

 

Oliver has a cybernetic arm and jaw after what Thragg did to him.

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

Cyber parts are cool looking.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

Cyber parts are cool looking.

 

Oliver's are supposed to have his own purple skin grown over them, so probably a bit less cool looking than Conquest's whammer.

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

Oliver's are supposed to have his own purple skin grown over them' date=' so probably a bit less cool looking than Conquest's whammer.[/quote']

 

You're much further in the series than I am so I can't really comment.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Invincible

 

You're much further in the series than I am so I can't really comment.

 

doh! Sorry

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invincible

 

I'm of the opinion that when characters get that powerful, they are effectively god-like beings and write ups are pointless. The power of Writer's Whim is not definable via static mechanics. The best you can get is a pastiche, with abilities scaled against baseline that evokes the character's relative capabilities.

 

Also, and this is an old discussion, but a lot of crazy power scaling is caused by assuming that things in a comic book universe weigh as much as their real world equivalents, looking at the STR chart to derive a strength, and then scaling damage, defenses, etc from there. That's pinning a lot of decisions on a pretty flimsy capstone.

 

The fact is comic book writers have collectively demonstrated again and again that modeling reality is not their goal, a solid grounding in physics, mechanics, or even common sense is not necessary to be a comic book writer, and being consistent with previously established capabilities is secondary to telling an action-packed over the top story.

 

Put simply, Joe Comic Book Writer doesn't necessarily know or care how heavy a mountain or cruise ship or a tree or a brownstone building actually weighs, nor do they necessarily know or care how physical realities would make it impossible for even an infinitely strong human-sized person to actually lift a contiguous structure many times larger than themselves and have it remain intact unless it were made of extremely durable and rigid materials. Similarly, Joe Comic Book READER doesn't necessarily care either as long as it's drawn well and is "kewl".

 

In the past I've toyed with the idea of having different strength charts for different genres / levels of realism to better model the typical effects of strength in a particular campaign setting. If trying to mimic a DC-like setting where Superman type characters with absurd levels of strength are prevalent, I think it's worth considering before inflating everything across the board to synch up with Strengths in the 100+ range.

[Christopher]

Re: Invincible

 

I'm of the opinion that when characters get that powerful' date=' they are effectively god-like beings and write ups are pointless. The power of Writer's Whim is not definable via static mechanics. The best you can get is a pastiche, with abilities scaled against baseline that evokes the character's relative capabilities.[/quote']

The Glas cannon/Invulnerable Man/Artfull Dodger problem. In comic books it is okay to let them have just the STR/damge/durability needed one time and have them lack it another. But in Hero games with points and the general "writer (GM) does not controll actions of characters (PC)", this can't be done as absolute or completely.

 

nor do they necessarily know or care how physical realities would make it impossible for even an infinitely strong human-sized person to actually lift a contiguous structure many times larger than themselves and have it remain intact unless it were made of extremely durable and rigid materials.

Actually, Hero does not do either. There is even some passage in the Champions 6E or APG referring exactly the "lift building" problem. And generally, since we talk about playing superheroes, this will not be a problem anymore than it is in the comicbooks. Unless we are talking baout exceptionally realistic campaings, wich certanly does not fit's well with Superpowered heroes.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Invincible

 

But then you would also have to downscale the effectiveness of real-world weapons and armor, such that the Superman type characters can easily dispatch a tank, shrug off heavy artillery, etc. --and at the same time have that stuff be invulnerable to small arms fire and capable of killing normals instantly.

 

I do think that the "scale" of comics is clearly non-linear. For example, Super strength is probably best represented by a progression of feats:

1. can lift a small car

2. can lift a bus(spiderman)

3. can lift a tank(most marvel mid-range bricks)

4. can lift a jumbo jet

5. can lift a trawler or apartment building

6. can lift an aircraft carrier or skyscraper

7. can lift a pyramid or giant spaceship

8. can lift a mountain or move an asteroid

9. can lift a continental plate or move a moon

10. can move a planet

11. incalculable, can move a neutron star(the only kind of star that might be solid enough to move around)

 

It's not a neat progression, and in fact at the upper end you're jumping up several orders of magnitude at a time, but in the context of comic book measurements of strength, this is actually pretty consistent. You could do the same thing for agility/reflexes/speed(and there'd be a noticeable jump between hypersonic and sublight speed), durability(ditto between "invulnerable to conventional weaponry" and "invulnerable to nuclear weaponry"), energy projection(just bootstrap DBZ onto standard comic book feats and you'll get the same quantum jumps), and even mental powers(there'd be a jump between "able to control/communicate with an entire city" and "able to control/communicate with an entire planet").

[Ice9]

Re: Invincible

 

If trying to mimic a DC-like setting where Superman type characters with absurd levels of strength are prevalent, I think it's worth considering before inflating everything across the board to synch up with Strengths in the 100+ range.

Actually, for some comics, I think you do want to bump the damage/defense levels up ridiculously high, because the "splat to bounce" ratio is much higher than baseline Champions gives you. By this I mean that there are often attacks that will insta-kill a normal person, such as a tank cannon, that will bounce off a given hero without leaving a scratch.

 

To be specific:

Normal Human: 8 BODY, dies at -8 BODY, 0 rPD.

Attack strong enough to be ~90% fatal: 6d6 RKA

Defense required to be impervious to that: 36 rPD

Defense required to be usually (~75%) not even shaken (less than 10 STUN taken) by that: ~60 PD*.

* I'm guessing a bit here because the actual math is time-consuming, but it wouldn't be much less, and maybe a lot more.

 

Definitely not default Champions power levels .. nor should it be necessarily, different superheroes have different scales. But if you want to get the Superman effect, that's where you're looking at.

Now if you're never going to have handguns vs tanks and superheroes vs tanks in the same campaign, then it doesn't matter so much - you can scale the numbers to whatever is convenient.

[Christopher]

Re: Invincible

 

Actually' date=' for some comics, I think you [i']do[/i] want to bump the damage/defense levels up ridiculously high, because the "splat to bounce" ratio is much higher than baseline Champions gives you. By this I mean that there are often attacks that will insta-kill a normal person, such as a tank cannon, that will bounce off a given hero without leaving a scratch.

This can often be done easier by letting Real Weapons and Real Armor be way less usefull against their non-real counterpart. Or making them Normal Damage only. Or perhaps a DN, only vs real Weapons.

Or let everyone buy their weapons with points, not as equipment:

A 175 Point Agent from Champions 6E can only muster a 8d6 Blast or a 7d6 Blast, 5 times Autofire.

The 100 Point Soldier only has a 2d6 RKA, +1 STUN Multiplier, 5 times Autofire

Both have charges on their Multipower.

 

That way even a baseline Brick with 24 normal, 18 rEDF is pretty tought agaisnt them and could buy additional SFX-Only defenses to be bulletproof.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Invincible

 

Here's another example for comparison:

The High Powered Sports Model Brick

 

 

It's the 2nd highest point HERO character I've ever made.

(My highest point build ever is still Samurai Jack.)

[phoenix240]

Re: Invincible

 

doh! Sorry

 

Nothing to apologize for. I expected some spoilers. Just wanted to explain any confusion early.