Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

[dmjalund]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Of course' date=' Mages won't spend the time. How about Priests? It would be quite natural for a Priest to Heal and perhaps help out the weather, crop yields etc. They would do it for "free" as that would promote their god(ess) and encourage regular worship. Now not all gods are concerned about the same things, but you would probably find the gods that cover the concerns of farmers near the farmers, the gods that are about mercantilism near markets etc. I think it's easy to forget or dismiss divine Magics. I am sure that the gods would want to show their worshippers that Gods are worthy of being followed.[/quote']But it costs goods and money to keep a priesthood

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

But it costs goods and money to keep a priesthood

 

I suppose the theory is that the recipients of your good works will donate to your organization, so you're not really 'charging for services' so overtly.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Of course' date=' Mages won't spend the time. How about Priests? It would be quite natural for a Priest to Heal and perhaps help out the weather, crop yields etc. They would do it for "free" as that would promote their god(ess) and encourage regular worship. Now not all gods are concerned about the same things, but you would probably find the gods that cover the concerns of farmers near the farmers, the gods that are about mercantilism near markets etc. I think it's easy to forget or dismiss divine Magics. I am sure that the gods would want to show their worshippers that Gods are worthy of being followed.[/quote']

 

Assuming your game world has gods, of course. Not always a given.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Assuming your game world has gods' date=' of course. Not always a given. [/quote']

 

That we know of.

 

*mystical Jedi finger waggle*

[Clonus]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Of course' date=' Mages won't spend the time. How about Priests? It would be quite natural for a Priest to Heal and perhaps help out the weather, crop yields etc. They would do it for "free" as that would promote their god(ess) and encourage regular worship. Now not all gods are concerned about the same things, but you would probably find the gods that cover the concerns of farmers near the farmers, the gods that are about mercantilism near markets etc. I think it's easy to forget or dismiss divine Magics. I am sure that the gods would want to show their worshippers that Gods are worthy of being followed.[/quote']

 

Doesn't worry me that much. Fantasy worlds ARE more affluent than real low tech worlds. People are better fed on less land, healthier, and have more gold. They just have more animal attacks and undeveloped land.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

And the logical consequences extend in all directions: any mage powerful enough to mend a dagger wound is theoretically powerful enough to stop aging or conjure his food out of the air ... or send a message across the country faster than the fastest physical message system.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Not necessarily.

 

"If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we (Fill in the blank?)"

 

It only costs what, 5 pts to be physically immortal (at least, immune to age?) I would spend more than that equipping, say, an average infantryman, let alone buying a tank or nuclear missile. If technology is capable of that kind of awesome power, why don't we have physical immortality yet?

 

It costs 6 pts to get basic rolls with a couple of skills, 10 pts to be a black belt in a martial art. If training can accomplish that much, can I learn to retard the aging process or even reverse it?

 

 

Yes, sometimes one power will logically imply another, or other applications. If for example you have scrying that works at long distances instantly, then even if you don't have telepathy or teleportation or some magic that projects your voice at such ranges at will, you still have communication: "Every other day, scry this blackboard for messages from me to you. On alternate days, I'll scry your bloackboard for replies."

 

 

But a healing spell does not imply conjuring food, a cure for the aging process, or long distance communication.

 

 

And even if something is theoretically possible, that doesn't make it practical. Not many people are aware that in point of fact it IS now possible to turn lead into gold and has been done - but is not done often because it is so expensive in terms of energy expended that the only point of doing it was to say that yes it had been done.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary turns led into goals.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Doesn't worry me that much. Fantasy worlds ARE more affluent than real low tech worlds. People are better fed on less land' date=' healthier, and have more gold. They just have more animal attacks and undeveloped land.[/quote']

 

I absolutely agree with this observation. Most game worlds should logically have a higher standard of living, even at the bottom of the social pyramid, than their historical analogs.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What does a palindromedary imply?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Most game worlds should logically have a higher standard of living' date=' even at the bottom of the social pyramid, than their historical analogs.[/quote']What? Nobody wants to roleplay in a world where the poor and downtrodden have no prospects besides a brutish and short life ended prematurely by war, malnutrition or disease? Shocking.

 

As to the original topic: I have no mind for economics. I make up for that by keeping large hoards of treasure extremely rare and well guarded. And as much as I would like to have a very "accounting" heavy player economy, I usually tend to abstract costs of equipment. Probably because of too many computer "roleplaying" games that gave me that Longsword +1 right after I saved up the scratch to buy one from Ye Old Magic Shoppe.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

What? Nobody wants to roleplay in a world where the poor and downtrodden have no prospects besides a brutish and short life ended prematurely by war, malnutrition or disease? Shocking.

 

As to the original topic: I have no mind for economics. I make up for that by keeping large hoards of treasure extremely rare and well guarded. And as much as I would like to have a very "accounting" heavy player economy, I usually tend to abstract costs of equipment. Probably because of too many computer "roleplaying" games that gave me that Longsword +1 right after I saved up the scratch to buy one from Ye Old Magic Shoppe.

 

I'm not just talking about what's a fun environment to role play in, although that's also a valid point.

 

I'm saying that for a game world that features significant amounts of accessible practical magic of certain types, people who say that everything should look like the grimmest interpretation of the "Dark Ages" to be "realistic" are talking nonsense. That would be totally UNrealistic.

 

For example, if a game world features a "Continual Light" spell that is a "low level" spell, and it's not in common use at least in the homes of the wealthy and powerful, and probably as streetlights in major cities, I have to ask "Why Not?" It's not very realistic for them NOT to be there, unless there's some such reason as "The spellcasters who can do it regard it as a sacred power and are jealous and stingy with the use of it." In which case, it seems incongruous if adventuring spellcasters use it readily and casually....

 

In other words, I'm saying that the word "realistic" gets abused. Realistic doesn't mean just like the Bad Old Days of (whenever and wherever.) Realistic means the world looks and works like it might look and work, given whatever premises we've already accepted about that world; NOT that the world looks and works like it could not possibly look and work, given whatever premises we've already accepted about that world.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This palindromedary is impossible at one end. But which end?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Valid points and....I was just being snarky. Sorry 'bout that.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Valid points and....I was just being snarky. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Don't be - your point is perfectly valid too, and arguably more important. It just wasn't the same point I was trying to make.

 

edit: In a way maybe it is. What I was saying was focused on what makes a game fun or unfun for ME. For me, I want the game world to make some kind of sense - and what some people falsely call "realistic" does NOT really make sense.

 

For what it's worth, I could imagine having fun in low fantasy, maybe even in no magic, no "monsters" low tech adventures that wouldn't really qualify as "fantasy" by most definitions. If, say, MarkDoc is running it. But it probably wouldn't be my first choice.

 

To tie it back to the original question, and YOUR point, how much attention should be paid to economics depends on how much FUN it will make or mar. If an adventuring party acquires a black mithral coin and figures out that it could buy pretty much the known world and get change back, you haven't thought about it enough and it's going to reduce my fun because I'm sitting there asking "Why in the name of Sepherin the Drowned God of the Dead would anyone ever mint a coin of such absurd value?" But if I have to calculate the cost of maintaining my armor based on tracking every. single. hit. I take in combat, that's TOO much detail and I don't think that's very much fun either.

 

Ironically both of those examples are from the same game.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Priceless palindromedary.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Of course' date=' Mages won't spend the time. How about Priests? It would be quite natural for a Priest to Heal and perhaps help out the weather, crop yields etc. They would do it for "free" as that would promote their god(ess) and encourage regular worship. Now not all gods are concerned about the same things, but you would probably find the gods that cover the concerns of farmers near the farmers, the gods that are about mercantilism near markets etc. I think it's easy to forget or dismiss divine Magics. I am sure that the gods would want to show their worshippers that Gods are worthy of being followed.[/quote']

 

 

Actually one of the bigger problems I have with most fantasy RPG milieus is the overt presence of divinities. When you have wandering priests that heal life-threatening wounds and throw flame strikes around, faith becomes... awfully easy. I know the usual handwave is to say that it might just be a different form of secular magic, but from a practical standpoint, it seems prudent for everyone to join a congregation regardless of where the power is actually coming from. At that point religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of loyalty to one's 'side'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Actually one of the bigger problems I have with most fantasy RPG milieus is the overt presence of divinities. When you have wandering priests that heal life-threatening wounds and throw flame strikes around' date=' faith becomes... awfully easy. I know the usual handwave is to say that it might just be a different form of secular magic, but from a practical standpoint, it seems prudent for everyone to join a congregation regardless of where the power is actually coming from. At that point religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of loyalty to one's 'side'.[/quote']

 

It's tough to be an atheist or agnostic with constant proof. The terms probably need to change a bit, such that the "Agnostic" does not know which deity he should follow and the "Athiest" believes Sentients should forge their own way and not rely on or worship, these deities.

[Steve]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

It's tough to be an atheist or agnostic with constant proof. The terms probably need to change a bit' date=' such that the "Agnostic" does not know which deity he should follow and the "Athiest" believes Sentients should forge their own way and not rely on or worship, these deities.[/quote']

 

I liked the idea presented in The Valdorian Age that the priests are just summoning entities from the higher realms and negotiating with them for services, not really worshipping a deity. They were still sorcerers, just with a patina of religion covering them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

It's tough to be an atheist or agnostic with constant proof. The terms probably need to change a bit' date=' such that the "Agnostic" does not know which deity he should follow and the "Athiest" believes Sentients should forge their own way and not rely on or worship, these deities.[/quote']

 

Divine Magic isn't necessarily proof, because the person claiming the magic is a gift from a god may be mistaken about its source. F'rex, in my D&D games, 'divine' magic is nothing more than power tapped from the Astral Sea, a conduit created by a ritual. This ritual is generally in the hands of religious organizations, and 99 percent of the people who use it or receive it believe that this ritual entreats a divine force which grants them power. They're wrong, but you'll never convince them of that.

 

I once heard the term 'apostate' in reference to 'yes, there is a god/are gods, but I don't follow him/her/them', but a quick online check shows that's not the right word, and I can't find the correct one. But, yeah, a word for that would be nice. Most of my characters take that stance simply because fantasy gods don't act like gods; they're generally every bit as petty, arrogant, manipulative and power-hungry as the worst of humans, and my PCs aren't going to kiss the butt of someone who acts like that regardless of their over 9000 power level.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Actually one of the bigger problems I have with most fantasy RPG milieus is the overt presence of divinities. When you have wandering priests that heal life-threatening wounds and throw flame strikes around' date=' faith becomes... awfully easy. I know the usual handwave is to say that it might just be a different form of secular magic, but from a practical standpoint, it seems prudent for everyone to join a congregation regardless of where the power is actually coming from. At that point religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of loyalty to one's 'side'.[/quote']

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Not just in fantasy worlds, evidently.

[Clonus]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Actually one of the bigger problems I have with most fantasy RPG milieus is the overt presence of divinities. When you have wandering priests that heal life-threatening wounds and throw flame strikes around' date=' faith becomes... awfully easy. I know the usual handwave is to say that it might just be a different form of secular magic, but from a practical standpoint, it seems prudent for everyone to join a congregation regardless of where the power is actually coming from. At that point religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of loyalty to one's 'side'.[/quote']

 

I don't see how that's a problem. At one time people pretty much automatically were part of a congregation and did religious observances for safety's sake and to be part of one's "side". Belonging to a church because it provides medical services is not that different from belonging to a church for the social connection it provides. Prior to the rise of philosophy and monotheism, "faith" in the sense of a conviction that a supernatural entity exists, wasn't even an issue. It was pretty much universally taken for granted that supernatural entities exist. Of course that doesn't mean having a conviction in their rightness and superiority to their competitors. That still takes faith.

[Tasha]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Divine Magic isn't necessarily proof, because the person claiming the magic is a gift from a god may be mistaken about its source. F'rex, in my D&D games, 'divine' magic is nothing more than power tapped from the Astral Sea, a conduit created by a ritual. This ritual is generally in the hands of religious organizations, and 99 percent of the people who use it or receive it believe that this ritual entreats a divine force which grants them power. They're wrong, but you'll never convince them of that.

 

I once heard the term 'apostate' in reference to 'yes, there is a god/are gods, but I don't follow him/her/them', but a quick online check shows that's not the right word, and I can't find the correct one. But, yeah, a word for that would be nice. Most of my characters take that stance simply because fantasy gods don't act like gods; they're generally every bit as petty, arrogant, manipulative and power-hungry as the worst of humans, and my PCs aren't going to kiss the butt of someone who acts like that regardless of their over 9000 power level.

 

I guess you haven't read any Greek or Norse Mythology. In Greek Mythology the Gods act like superpowered Bratty Humans (ie like many Celebrities of today). They don't act all stuffy and "Godlike". In Fact even the good ones act badly. In Norse Mythology the Gods do act a bit better, but you have to admit that Odin treated his son Thor badly. Of course Thor was a bit full of himself, so he might have deserved it a bit.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

I guess you haven't read any Greek or Norse Mythology. In Greek Mythology the Gods act like superpowered Bratty Humans (ie like many Celebrities of today). They don't act all stuffy and "Godlike". In Fact even the good ones act badly. In Norse Mythology the Gods do act a bit better' date=' but you have to admit that Odin treated his son Thor badly. Of course Thor was a bit full of himself, so he might have deserved it a bit.[/quote']

 

Frankly, you could make that observation about almost ANY mythology, including the monotheistic ones.

 

However, this is

 

1. Way off topic in a thread about economics

 

2. Wandering into NGD territory

 

3. Wandering into flame bait territory

 

4. Going over ground I've been over before in other threads and don't want to reprise here, so in conclusion

 

5. I'm planning to change the subject

 

Lucius Alexander

 

6. I have a palindromedary

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

I guess you haven't read any Greek or Norse Mythology. In Greek Mythology the Gods act like superpowered Bratty Humans (ie like many Celebrities of today). They don't act all stuffy and "Godlike". In Fact even the good ones act badly. In Norse Mythology the Gods do act a bit better' date=' but you have to admit that Odin treated his son Thor badly. Of course Thor was a bit full of himself, so he might have deserved it a bit.[/quote']

 

I'm aware of that. I'm not sure what your point is, however.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Off topic.

[Tasha]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Actually one of the bigger problems I have with most fantasy RPG milieus is the overt presence of divinities. When you have wandering priests that heal life-threatening wounds and throw flame strikes around' date=' faith becomes... awfully easy. I know the usual handwave is to say that it might just be a different form of secular magic, but from a practical standpoint, it seems prudent for everyone to join a congregation regardless of where the power is actually coming from. At that point religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of loyalty to one's 'side'.[/quote']

 

There was a time when believing in the Gods and Goddesses were more than just Faith. It was the best way to describe things we now use science to explain. So for our ancestors there wasn't a question about god. Also priests used tricks and other ways to fake miracles to keep the faithful. The only difference is that in most Middle to High Fantasy games. The gods are real and give their clergy real powers to attract and help their worshippers. I guess I have never had a problem with my PC worshipping fictional gods (or even RL ones). I always thought that it was nice that those deities rewarded their most faithful in that way. A bit like how the most faithful were rewarded in most RL religions.

 

Having Deities that give their clergy spells does have an effect on an economy. People work till later in life, injuries can be repaired quickly getting the person back to work (instead of dying or being crippled). Sickness can be controlled better keeping people working. A community might tithe a decent amount of their output esp if the clergy's help increases crop yield significantly.

 

Answering the OP question. I don't really think it's worth examining the economy too much. It's a lot of time wasted that probably doesn't add much to the stories you tell. Some minimal time thinking of what regions produce what and what they export and import is reasonable. That can add some flavor to a campaign, but figuring out the minutiae of all of the economies will drive most GM's insane. With all things, if it doesn't directly impact the majority of player's enjoyment of the campaign it's probably a waste of time to pursue.

[Tasha]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Frankly, you could make that observation about almost ANY mythology, including the monotheistic ones.

 

However, this is

 

1. Way off topic in a thread about economics

 

2. Wandering into NGD territory

 

3. Wandering into flame bait territory

 

4. Going over ground I've been over before in other threads and don't want to reprise here, so in conclusion

 

5. I'm planning to change the subject

 

Lucius Alexander

 

6. I have a palindromedary

1) yes, but was pointing out that those fictional deities were just as bad as their Real World Mythological counterparts. Also while OT to the Original post it wasn't off topic to what the thread had evolved into.

2) I disagree, this is a Fantasy Board and we were talking about how Religions impact economies.

3) Perhaps I was a bit harsh

4) haven't seen those other threads and the subject veered way before my post

5) Feel free to nudge the subject back to the original topic.

6) they confuse me can't tell if they are coming or going

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Of course' date=' Mages won't spend the time. How about Priests? It would be quite natural for a Priest to Heal and perhaps help out the weather, crop yields etc. They would do it for "free" as that would promote their god(ess) and encourage regular worship. Now not all gods are concerned about the same things, but you would probably find the gods that cover the concerns of farmers near the farmers, the gods that are about mercantilism near markets etc. I think it's easy to forget or dismiss divine Magics. I am sure that the gods would want to show their worshippers that Gods are worthy of being followed.[/quote']

 

But it costs goods and money to keep a priesthood

 

Yup. In the current game the temples of the dominant religion are a combined hospital, library, telephone exchange, research lab and forensic lab ... if you can pay. Maybe not over the counter, but still, small, poor communities don't have large powerful temples. Priests and Priestesses can and do help society, but in exchange they need a big fancy temple, nice clothes, good food, scribes to write their stuff .... etc. In this game there's no such thing s "divine magic" - magic is magic. Not all (or even most) people in a temple are adepts, and their numbers are limited, so the same limitations apply as do to mages. Basically, why be poor and hungry when you could be wealthy and comfortable?

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

 

Divine Magic isn't necessarily proof' date=' because the person claiming the magic is a gift from a god may be mistaken about its source.[/quote']

 

And that's how it is in my game. A priest will say - and may even believe - that it's "The power of the Gods!" A sceptic will say "It just looks like magic to me."

The Priest counters with "Do you deny the might and majesty, even mystery of the church of X?" and the sceptic replies "How do you even tell a God and a powerful magician apart?" ... at which point you're down to dueling energy blasts

 

cheers, Mark