THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sorry Bob, I'm afraid you'd have to have time-travel powers yourself to go back at least to the Pulp Era if you want to stop the use of "dimension" as a vernacular synonym for "parallel universe."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

BOTE may not be the appropriate venue, but if you could define just what the "Cosmic Axis" is that the Janus Key accesses, I'd appreciate it.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Note that I didn't say "don't use 'dimension' for this at all." Just avoid it. There is, as noted, a long tradition of it; Mxyzptlk is from the Fifth Dimension*, and other notable characters have been from the Seventh Dimension, Twelfth Dimension, and so forth. I.V.'s nickname, for crying out loud, already is "The Empress of a Billion Dimensions."

 

But that misuse has been falling out of practice in recent years -- not always in favor of "alternate universes," but sometimes as "worlds," "realms," "planes," "branes," and other terms. (In the Realm Hunter series, I use either "realm," "world," or occasionally "time-line" depending on the context; the narrator doesn't quite grasp the concept of a "universe," and his native language has no word for it.)

 

For BotE, both for accuracy and in keeping with the current trend, I'd recommend using "universe" unless some other term is appropriate for the context.

[phoenix240]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Lets not get to hung up on "realism" and accuracy about things like physics. The concept of V'han is really one of those things that quickly falls apart if you try to make it "realistic" (IMO).

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Actually there's been a move throughout the Bronze Age of Comics to try to bring things as closely to known real-world physics as is possible without wiping out our favorite heroes' powers altogether. Some of them are pretty tough to fit in, like Superman's flight and Colossus' metal form, so there's a lot of handwaving.

 

My own attitude is to do that much as much as possible, and handwave the rest. I think Steve tends to be a bit more free-form than that, but it's still a good principle to write by.

 

And if you're referring to my mention of V'han's immunity to temporal shifts, I was mainly just reasoning from effects (after a fashion) and finding justification for a new set of abilities -- basically, considering the implications of the assumption. Many a fine story has come from just such a "what-if" thought exercise.

[Steve]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing that might help define V'han is to define what a conquered dimension really is in terms of the scope of her empire. I think other posters have asked this as well. Is she just a conqueror of alternate Earths? Earth and the nearby solar systems? The entire Milky Way galaxy? Every galaxy?

[phoenix240]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Actually there's been a move throughout the Bronze Age of Comics to try to bring things as closely to known real-world physics as is possible without wiping out our favorite heroes' powers altogether. Some of them are pretty tough to fit in, like Superman's flight and Colossus' metal form, so there's a lot of handwaving.

 

My own attitude is to do that much as much as possible, and handwave the rest. I think Steve tends to be a bit more free-form than that, but it's still a good principle to write by.

 

And if you're referring to my mention of V'han's immunity to temporal shifts, I was mainly just reasoning from effects (after a fashion) and finding justification for a new set of abilities -- basically, considering the implications of the assumption. Many a fine story has come from just such a "what-if" thought exercise.

 

I was referring to the overall drift of the thread. The concept of V'han is so extreme trying to make it "realistic" seems to be a waste or even counter productive. I largely feel the same way about the trend of trying to bring hard science into comics you mentioned. I'm glad its not very prevelent (at least IME). Comics are pretty fantasy and when you start over analyzing them it spoils things. At least for me. Since really most superpowers just don't work in a coldly realistic world, at least as we understand it. And that's not even getting into the society and other aspects of the genre. But that's just my preferences.The "partial handwave" approach doesn't work for me. If real world physics is going to matter, it should matter consistently or its going to be rubber science, it should be that way consistently. All IMO, of course.

[phoenix240]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing that might help define V'han is to define what a conquered dimension really is in terms of the scope of her empire. I think other posters have asked this as well. Is she just a conqueror of alternate Earths? Earth and the nearby solar systems? The entire Milky Way galaxy? Every galaxy?

 

Yeah, that's something I've been wondering about. I mean why the focus on the Earth when the Universe is incredibly vast?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I have to admit, while Steve asserts being satisfied with "the Earth is special because it's special," I'd really like to see a bit more rationale as to why these dimensional conquerors are always so eager to seize it, as opposed to all the other inhabited planets in the galaxy. Is Earth a special nexus point to higher planes, or alternate universes? Does all the extra magical real estate of the Imaginal Realms make it a conqueror's "package deal?" Does Earth have some resource that most worlds lack that could be put to use after conquest?

[Cygnia]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I have to admit' date=' while Steve asserts being satisfied with "the Earth is special because it's special," I'd really like to see a bit more rationale as to why these dimensional conquerors are always so eager to seize it, as opposed to all the other inhabited planets in the galaxy. Is Earth a special nexus point to higher planes, or alternate universes? Does all the extra magical real estate of the Imaginal Realms make it a conqueror's "package deal?" Does Earth have some resource that most worlds lack that could be put to use after conquest?[/quote']

 

V'han Needs Men! Her back isn't gonna massage itself...

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Of course the Earth is the pivot of reality. It's where the Basilisk Orb is. (And if that's some kind of cosmic accident, it gets rid of all the "Earthmen are teh awesome" manifest destiny stuff.)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Not to mention the Janus Key, the Jade Mirror of Transcendence, the Mandragalore, the Hellstone, etc. etc... but is Earth special because these things are here, or are they here because Earth's special?

[ghost-angel]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see a little bit in the GM Section on running campaigns on V'han's side of things - as part of her empire instead of against it. Exploring the morality of forcing subjects into better lives at the cost of their freedom.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Keep in mind that the other dimensions I-V rules don't have to be limited to alternates of the CU.

 

Absolutely correct. I wouldn't put precise figures on it, but I'd guess that less than half of her Empire consists of "alternate Earth"-type dimensions, and even then not all alternate Earth dimensions are also alternate CU dimensions.

 

 

That reminds me, Steve: Will the book include any significant dimensions that aren't directly under I-V's control, perhaps ones she wants or which have thwarted her in the past?

 

Absolutely it will. As I mentioned in my intro post, there's a whole chapter on the multiverse of the CU. A lot of that's being reprinted from TMW (since it's still the same multiverse after all ), but there will certainly be more to it. In that chapter I plan to include descriptions of a dozen or more "example" dimensions that haven't previously been described. Some have been mentioned (such as Britworld), but never described.

 

Nor are any of them going to be quite as simple as, say, "Viking World" from the old Champions In 3-D. Some will be alternate Earths, certainly (again, witness Britworld), but I hope to be a bit more original and a bit more "realistic" than just "a dimension where dinosaurs take the place of people" or whatever. If I succeed, great; if not, I'm sure one of you will be happy to tell me.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Let me put a stop to this discussion of vernacular right now.

 

I will use "dimension" when I want to, and "universe" when I want to. I know when I think they apply, and I am consistent in my usage, and that's the end of that.

 

Move on to some other topic, please. Debating word usage isn't appropriate for this thread, and doesn't help me at all.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The concept of V'han is so extreme trying to make it "realistic" seems to be a waste or even counter productive.

 

Ding! Give phoenix240 a prize.

 

I'm not going to try to make Istvatha V'han "realistic." That would be counterproductive and quite likely pointless. Nor am I going to reference "quantum splitting" or any other such thing. This is a comic book setting. It's inherently unrealistic. There's some fun to be had occasionally in trying to "explain" or "justify" things in real world terms, but that approach is also likely to suck every bit of Fun out of things if taken too far.

 

And trying to explain V'han "realistically" is definitely taking things too far.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I mean why the focus on the Earth when the Universe is incredibly vast?

 

That's easy:

 

1. First, you're assuming all she does is focus on Earth. That's not true (in fact, if she focused entirely on Earth, she'd have conquered it already, most likely). That just happens to be what interests we Earthers the most.

 

2. To the extent she does, in fact, focus on Earth, it's for a reason I mentioned in an earlier response: it's because it's Earth. We're special. There's no secret high-falutin' reason for it, it's just the way things are.[1] It's a rule of genre fiction akin to the theory of gravity -- it's so fundamental you just don't need to worry about it most of the time.

 

3. I think some of you may also be assuming Earth is the only dimension V'han has ever failed to conquer. That's not true either.

 

 

 

 

 

[1] If you wanted a "realistic" reason for it, my response might be, "It's not special at all. We just think we're getting a lot of attention because we are all we can see. We don't get any more attention or activity than any similar dimension." There ya go. Realistic... and also no fun, from my POV.

[megaplayboy]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

An actual abbreviated history of V'Han's conflicts with Skarn and Tyrannon would be kinda cool. Maybe even a brief mention of a few lesser rivals? How does she feel about the Kings of Edom, Krim, etc.? Are there abstract polydimensional entities she has to occasionally deal with?

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

An actual abbreviated history of V'Han's conflicts with Skarn and Tyrannon would be kinda cool. Maybe even a brief mention of a few lesser rivals? How does she feel about the Kings of Edom, Krim, etc.? Are there abstract polydimensional entities she has to occasionally deal with?

 

Her major interactions/conflicts with Tyrannon and Skarn will definitely be covered in the history section (though of course that chapter by definition has to be a pretty abbreviated version of her personal history; it's such an enormous subject). Her relations with major CU setting entities, like the Kings of Edom, will be discussed in the GMing chapter (just like was done in BotD and BotM, though of course it's done differently in each of the three books because each of the master villains in question has a different perspective on things).

 

The chapter discussing her empire in general has a section on enemies which will also touch on Tyrannon, Skarn, and various other major threats to her (including the Crusaders of the Infinite Realities, an idea I developed based on a suggestion on this very thread! ::cue dramatic theme music:: )

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Re: the "vernacular" and "realism" discussions: I think we'd gotten to the point in these where everyone had made our case for the judge (you, Steve), and were already set to drop it and move on. Not that you weren't right, but the discussions were basically already over.

 

Re: why Earth is special: I wonder if there might be some other universes where the "special" world is somewhere else, such as Dorvala, Malva, or even the planet we know as the Xenovore Home World. There could even be some in which those worlds are the only thing in common with the main CU -- Earth does not exist (in somewhat the same manner that Dorvala, Malva, et al don't exist in non-CU sci-fi settings).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm not going to try to make Istvatha V'han "realistic." That would be counterproductive and quite likely pointless. Nor am I going to reference "quantum splitting" or any other such thing. This is a comic book setting. It's inherently unrealistic. There's some fun to be had occasionally in trying to "explain" or "justify" things in real world terms' date=' but that approach is also likely to suck every bit of Fun out of things if taken too far.[/quote']

 

I think a better term might be extrapolating from her unusual nature, rather than suggesting somehow making an interdimensional conqueror fit with scientific reality. ie as she is unique in the multiverse, what impact does that have, is there a reason she is unique in the multiverse, and is she the only such unique being, or are there others?

 

Of course, consistent with the source material, she will remain unique in the multiverse for exactly as long as no one decides to pen a scenario where a second I.V. somehow becomes useful, at which time we will discover that there are two, and they each believed themselves unique in the Multiverse until now.

 

And Nothing Will Ever Be The Same - If You Buy Only One Scenario This Year, It Must Be This One!

[phoenix240]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think a better term might be extrapolating from her unusual nature, rather than suggesting somehow making an interdimensional conqueror fit with scientific reality. ie as she is unique in the multiverse, what impact does that have, is there a reason she is unique in the multiverse, and is she the only such unique being, or are there others?

 

Of course, consistent with the source material, she will remain unique in the multiverse for exactly as long as no one decides to pen a scenario where a second I.V. somehow becomes useful, at which time we will discover that there are two, and they each believed themselves unique in the Multiverse until now.

 

And Nothing Will Ever Be The Same - If You Buy Only One Scenario This Year, It Must Be This One!

 

LOL

 

So true. So very true.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That's easy:

 

1. First, you're assuming all she does is focus on Earth. That's not true (in fact, if she focused entirely on Earth, she'd have conquered it already, most likely). That just happens to be what interests we Earthers the most.

 

Now that raises an interesting question (at least to me). Istvatha has brought the Gadroon under her sway; does she have any other followers or territories, open or covert, elsewhere in the Milky Way, or for that matter any other galaxy in our universe?

 

For example, I imagine the Roin'esh would welcome a powerful ally in their goal of freeing themselves from the Malvans; and they'd make very useful covert operatives for V'han.

[Steve]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Regarding the Malvans and the Elder Worm, are there other universe versions of them that serve her empire?

 

The Elder Worm might be an example of an enduring infestation that inhabits the dark places of her empire, and they may have access to inter-dimensional travel through either their own sorceries or stolen V'han tech.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF THE EMPRESS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Regarding the Malvans and the Elder Worm, are there other universe versions of them that serve her empire?

 

The Elder Worm might be an example of an enduring infestation that inhabits the dark places of her empire, and they may have access to inter-dimensional travel through either their own sorceries or stolen V'han tech.

 

1. Yes, there almost certainly are. However, that's not to say they're exactly the same as the Malvans and Elder Worm in Earth's dimension. Given that V'han's technology isn't the equal of Malvan technology, certain inferrences can be made.

 

2. They might be, but they probably aren't. To the extent V'han has conquered dimensions where some analog of the Elder Worm exists, I suspect she's genocidally exterminated them. I certainly wouldn't want those things slumming around in my empire.