Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Broad skill levels are pretty expensive - more expensive than' date=' say, just buying OCV. And your OCV works with unfamiliar weapons. To me, a skill level is shorthand for a Multipower of OCV, DCV and Damage, limited to use with certain maneuvers or attacks, so an extra limit OCV lacks seems inappropriate.[/quote']

All CSL are just a OCV/DCV/extra DC Multipower, Limited by the number of attacks they can be applied to.

 

So why not allow someone who paid for +x OCV, Only with Bows(-2 1/2) use his bonus OCV?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Because he's not using a bow? If he is using a bow who suggested he couldn't use them?

[ideasmith]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Because he's not using a bow? If he is using a bow who suggested he couldn't use them?

Both IndianaJoe3 and Manic Typist, as quoted below:

 

 

However' date=' if I was the GM, I'd rule that CSLs couldn't be used unless the character has the appropriate WF.[/quote']

 

I'd allow it' date=' I think, for CSLs for "All Combat" or "All HtH," and the like, but probably not for less than that.[/quote']

[Fred Lang]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Wow. For a thread in which I asked, as a new guy, some general thoughts on "grittying-up" Hero, this has gone way too far inside baseball for me.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Wow. For a thread in which I asked' date=' as a new guy, some general thoughts on "grittying-up" Hero, this has gone way too far inside baseball for me.[/quote']

 

Sorry about that. We're HEROGeeks and don't always notice when we've run off the edge of the Earth with an idea.

 

Sorry!

[Fred Lang]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Sorry about that. We're HEROGeeks and don't always notice when we've run off the edge of the Earth with an idea.

 

Sorry!

 

*hah!* You have nothing on the GURPS boards. Nothing makes it past page 3 without being something else entirely!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Both IndianaJoe3 and Manic Typist, as quoted below:

 

 

 

But the post I was responding to specifically said the CSLs were bought with "only with X weapon Limitation". If someone buys CSLs "only with bows" and not the 1-point Weapon Familiarity with bows I think it might be time for the GM to sit down with them and point out the obvious or have someone else start making their characters for them...

[ideasmith]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

But the post I was responding to specifically said the CSLs were bought with "only with X weapon Limitation". If someone buys CSLs "only with bows" and not the 1-point Weapon Familiarity with bows I think it might be time for the GM to sit down with them and point out the obvious or have someone else start making their characters for them...

 

I missed that nuance. My bad.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

But the post I was responding to specifically said the CSLs were bought with "only with X weapon Limitation". If someone buys CSLs "only with bows" and not the 1-point Weapon Familiarity with bows I think it might be time for the GM to sit down with them and point out the obvious or have someone else start making their characters for them...

 

It's definitely "the opposite of munchkin", however his skill levels might be with "All Bows" and his familiarity with, say, Short Bows. He's an ace archer with +6 CSL's with Bows when he runs across a Long Bow for the first time in his life. Does he end up with OCV -3 (nonfamiliar penalty and no levels allowed) or can he build it up to +3 with his 6 CSL's?

 

Assume the game in question lacks "weapon groups", which I believe was one of the suggestions above.

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

But the post I was responding to specifically said the CSLs were bought with "only with X weapon Limitation". If someone buys CSLs "only with bows" and not the 1-point Weapon Familiarity with bows I think it might be time for the GM to sit down with them and point out the obvious or have someone else start making their characters for them...

Why? He might have never seen a longbow(he only uses shortbows), but he has still way more experience with the weapon than somebody who never held a bow in his live. And he paid more for having his CSL apply to all bows, rather than "Shortbow".

[Tasha]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

It's definitely "the opposite of munchkin", however his skill levels might be with "All Bows" and his familiarity with, say, Short Bows. He's an ace archer with +6 CSL's with Bows when he runs across a Long Bow for the first time in his life. Does he end up with OCV -3 (nonfamiliar penalty and no levels allowed) or can he build it up to +3 with his 6 CSL's?

 

Assume the game in question lacks "weapon groups", which I believe was one of the suggestions above.

 

in 6e1 and 6e2 Lack of Weapon familiarity only has a -3 OCV when using the weapon. There is nothing about Skill levels which leads me to believe that you can still apply any applicable Skill levels. So your archer with 6 levels with Bows and only WF Shortbow can be up to +3 with the unfamiliar Longbow.

[ideasmith]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

in 6e1 and 6e2 Lack of Weapon familiarity only has a -3 OCV when using the weapon. There is nothing about Skill levels which leads me to believe that you can still apply any applicable Skill levels. So your archer with 6 levels with Bows and only WF Shortbow can be up to +3 with the unfamiliar Longbow.

 

There seems to be general agreement on that point; the argument seems to be about what the rules should be, rather than what the rules are.

[gojira]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

There is nothing about Skill levels which leads me to believe that you can still apply any applicable Skill levels.

 

"Can't," I think you mean.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Seems to me that "all hand to hand combat" means just that' date=' as does "all ranged combat" and "all bows". "All combat" doesn't mean "all combat unless you don't have WF", it means your general combat skill may help you offset the disadvantage you face using an unfamiliar weapon.[/quote']

 

Isn't that what I said?

 

But the post I was responding to specifically said the CSLs were bought with "only with X weapon Limitation". If someone buys CSLs "only with bows" and not the 1-point Weapon Familiarity with bows I think it might be time for the GM to sit down with them and point out the obvious or have someone else start making their characters for them...

 

Yes, the GM should sit down and talk with them if the game has the 1-point Bow familiarity, but if after the talk they still really want the -3 penalty when they use a bow that they haven't paid points for then, well, it's their character...

 

We need a helpless shrug smiley.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[ideasmith]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Yes, the GM should sit down and talk with them if the game has the 1-point Bow familiarity, but if after the talk they still really want the -3 penalty when they use a bow that they haven't paid points for then, well, it's their character...

 

We need a helpless shrug smiley.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

 

I might play such a character someday, now that the idea is in my head.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

It's definitely "opposite of Munchkin" character design to not shell out 1 point for a WF if you will be using that weapon regularly. However, it's also possible the character has skill levels that are broader than the WF he has paid for, and that he encounters a weapon that falls within his skill levels while falling outside his WF.

 

One poster above discussed removal of weapon groups such that WF had to be purchased with each individual weapon. So maybe the character has WF Longsword, WF Broadsword and WF Bastard sword, in such a game, and some skill levels with Swords. If he is disarmed, but manages to pick up a short sword or a 2 handed sword, he lacks the WF but still has skill levels with Swords.

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

It's definitely "opposite of Munchkin" character design to not shell out 1 point for a WF if you will be using that weapon regularly. However' date=' it's also possible the character has skill levels that are broader than the WF he has paid for, and that he encounters a weapon that falls within his skill levels while falling outside his WF.[/quote']

How about:

"Intuitive Weapon Knowledge": 3 10-point-CSL, Only to offset penalty for missing Weapon Proficiency(-2)

In those games where the groups are broken up and you want a spell like that granst you the ability to wield any weapon (or just the ability).

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

One poster above discussed removal of weapon groups such that WF had to be purchased with each individual weapon. So maybe the character has WF Longsword' date=' WF Broadsword and WF Bastard sword, in such a game, and some skill levels with Swords. If he is disarmed, but manages to pick up a short sword or a 2 handed sword, he lacks the WF but still has skill levels with Swords.[/quote']

 

I've kind of dealt with weapon familiarity as if it were a language. Similar weapons operate similarly and can be used at a reduced penalty. The shortbow-wielding thief who obtains a longbow isn't as screwed as the sword-wielding paladin if that's his only weapon. Likewise, WF includes knowledge of how to maintain the weapon (how to string the bow, how to clean a rifle, how to reload weapons that can be reloaded, etc.)

 

A gunslinger with WF: revolvers will understand the basics of other firearms that operate on similar principles. His aim may not be as good due to the differences in ballistics, ergonomics, & so on, hence the -3 OCV penalty. Likewise, when it comes time to reload, someone whose familiarity is with muzzle-loading firearms might take longer to master the art of reloading a magazine-fed weapon, but if he comes across a Spencer carbine, He should be given a chance to figure out how to use it in short order. Of course if he's never even seen a repeater before he may have a hard time figuring out how to reload once the magazine's empty, but he might still use it as a single-shot weapon even of he can't figure out how to reload the magazine..

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I might play such a character someday' date=' now that the idea is in my head.[/quote']

 

It really isn't as outlandish as it sounds. If a character has only ever used a special bow (one that he paid points for) in his life, then he my well be skilled with bows, but woefully unprepared for dealing with regular ones.

 

Quotes from the Super Archer:

"Good grief! The pull on this thing is horrendous!" - During his first encounter with a STR Min weapon.

"Wait a minute! The string broke? I didn't know they could do that!" - Learning why you shouldn't attempt to do more than double the DCs of a Real Weapon, even when the GM lets you.

"I don't know why, but I can't seem to aim right with this thing." - Discovering that the point he used for immunity to bee stings could have been better spent.

 

With a character like this, hilarity is bound to ensue!

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[Tasha]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

It really isn't as outlandish as it sounds. If a character has only ever used a special bow (one that he paid points for) in his life, then he my well be skilled with bows, but woefully unprepared for dealing with regular ones.

 

Quotes from the Super Archer:

"Good grief! The pull on this thing is horrendous!" - During his first encounter with a STR Min weapon.

"Wait a minute! The string broke? I didn't know they could do that!" - Learning why you shouldn't attempt to do more than double the DCs of a Real Weapon, even when the GM lets you.

"I don't know why, but I can't seem to aim right with this thing." - Discovering that the point he used for immunity to bee stings could have been better spent.

 

With a character like this, hilarity is bound to ensue!

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

 

Though it's fairly unlikely that Super Archer learned with his super special bow. Also when it comes right down to it all bows work the same way. Some may have more pull than others. Some may have pin sights and some may have optical sights, but a european bow works the same no matter how long the bowstaff is. Yes using pin sights and even optical sights are different than sighting the bow down the arrow, but it isn't that hard to learn how to use the other sighting types. Also using a bow trigger instead of a bowglove and your fingers isn't that hard either. At the most it's a few shots to get used to the change.

 

Now I can see how firing a Japanese Bow (top is longer than the bottom) might take more practice, but even that shouldn't be too hard to switch over to.

 

PS you can't use more Str with a bow than it can handle. ie a 10 strength bow can't do more damage than the bow is listed at. If you want more damage you get a bow with a stronger pull. If you somehow want to over pull a bow you stand a chance of breaking either the string or bow itself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

How about:

"Intuitive Weapon Knowledge": 3 10-point-CSL, Only to offset penalty for missing Weapon Proficiency(-2)

In those games where the groups are broken up and you want a spell like that granst you the ability to wield any weapon (or just the ability).

 

That's the approach I would use for the Universal Weapons Master, but I'd use PSL's rather than CSL's. Of course, if someone has ruled you can't use CSL's without the WF, then this ability is completely worthless, isn't it?

 

To the Super Archer, I'd be inclined to assume he understands how bows work. I don't see a lot of WF in Supers games anyway.

[Greywind]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

In a Supers game, equipment is paid for bypassing the need for familiarity with said equipment.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

In a Supers game, equipment is paid for bypassing the need for familiarity with said equipment.

 

Right, I think we all understand that. However, if you don't ALSO buy the Weapon Familiarity for that type of weapon, then the one you paid points for is the only one you can use properly. Hawkeye may have a custom bow (I'd be surprised if he didn't, really) but he should be able to use ANY bow he picks up.

 

If I'm making a super that uses a weapon, I always take the WF for two reasons: first, realism: someone who's good with a weapon should have the skill listed. Second, paranoia: what if during some adventure I lose MY weapon, and have to use someone else's? One or two points for a WF is cheap insurance!

[Greywind]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Hawkeye has many bows. Just has one that he really prefers.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I really don't grok having weapon familiarities in a supers campaign. By tradition of long standing (and according to the rules, last I checked), anyone can use a mundane weapon unless the GM rules that your character has no way of figuring out how to work it, usually given in examples such as why your King-of-the-Jungle character doesn't intuitively understand the workings of the Great White Hunter's "bang-stick". The Mighty Arrow can probably pick up any bow and use it without WF unless his GM is a duck-head.

 

In a non-super campaign, I'd insist on weapon familiarity to avoid the penalty, but Joe Daggerthruster can pick up a shortbow and arrows and use them, only at -3 unfamiliarity penalty plus any other penalty a skilled archer would have to contend with. If he has combat skill levels with bows, I'd allow him to use those to offset his unfamiliarity with the shortbow, but I wouldn't let someone in a less-than-super campaign buy skill levels for weapons he doesn't possess in any case.