Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

And here I think we disagree. That is letting the PC set the CSL before the Combat starts. Combat starts with the first participant making having his phase, no matter what taht phase is.

 

Drawnign Weapons, readiing Shields, takign in a formation are all legal. But you can't take a defense stance against an enemy (applying your CSL) until you know what you are dealing with and this will be only the chase once the fight starts - when both parties see each other and at least one party thinks "Initiative".

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I did say "at least." and it depends on the type and design of armour

 

I made my own "brigandine" armor (for Amtgard / "nerf warfare" larping) and it took about a minute to get the bulk of it on and buckled - it was just a simple leather tunic style hauberk with a belt and 2 buckles on each side. Getting greaves and bracers on was another 2 to 3 minutes. And this was the simplest of armor designs around - just put my head through the hole, belt through the loop, fold down the shoulder flaps, 4 buckles, slip on and buckle greaves, bracers. In a terrible hurry, I might have been able to do it all in just over a minute.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

And here I think we disagree. That is letting the PC set the CSL before the Combat starts. Combat starts with the first participant making having his phase, no matter what taht phase is.

 

Drawnign Weapons, readiing Shields, takign in a formation are all legal. But you can't take a defense stance against an enemy (applying your CSL) until you know what you are dealing with and this will be only the chase once the fight starts - when both parties see each other and at least one party thinks "Initiative".

 

Well, this absolutely eliminates the Surprised Out of Combat halving modifier, and strongly penalizes any attempts at Surprise Attacks (although they are still possible).

 

Combats usually start on 12, unless one side is clearly initiating it (attackers from a concealed position attack on 6, so that any SPD 3 opponents have to abort their 8 [if they can at all], which allows the attackers to go again on 9, etc). So I'd generally have no problem with the PC assigning their DCV like that, but it would only work against attacks which they can perceive, just like in any other fight.

 

 

Also, I think Thane's understanding of Equipment Pools is flawed. I don't think there's anything in there that prevents the mobile armory, just what the character can be using in a given adventure until he return to the armory. If I get a chance, I'll try to read over that section.

[Thane]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I actually had normal classic adventures in mind, where there is no "armoury", just the "we carry all this stuff because it might come in handy". Equipment Pools I know nothing about, since I havn't yet played heroic HERO, I'm trying to catch up on all the superheroic rules to know them by heart as soon as possible so my game cun run smooth. So yes, I might be wrong, my understanding of EQ Pools is not flawed, I just didn't yet had the opportunity to read it so there is no real understanding at all

If they solve issues like "so guys, let's take all we can get our hands on which has even a 0,01% of being useful to increase our chance of surviva"l, consider my advice to "see if you like points for equipment rules" void in this case.

[dsatow]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Under wich part of the rule listed above is that covered?

Could it be that you mistake "Taking a Recovery" (using your phase to recover, instead of just the free post segment 12 recovery) with "Recovering form being Stunned"?

 

You're right. It should be before getting to recover.

 

It should be

Lets just be glad he wasn't Stunned (6E2 pg 105). If he was, if he took even one stun before starting to recover from being Stunned on his next phase, he wouldn't recover from being Stunned. Lets hope Randall has some backup.

 

This is due to this rule which is pretty bad in a fight.

 

A character may be hit by an attack in the Phase in which he’ll recover from being Stunned

before getting to do so (i.e., by another character whose DEX is higher than his). If the character

takes no damage from the attack after applying his defenses, he may still recover from being

Stunned as normal. However, if the character takes any STUN or BODY damage from the attack, he cannot recover from being Stunned that Phase; he must try to do so on his next Phase instead. (At the GM’s option, this also occurs if a character suffers any similar effect, such as losing INT to a Drain INT or taking Knockback.)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I actually had normal classic adventures in mind, where there is no "armoury", just the "we carry all this stuff because it might come in handy". Equipment Pools I know nothing about, since I havn't yet played heroic HERO, I'm trying to catch up on all the superheroic rules to know them by heart as soon as possible so my game cun run smooth. So yes, I might be wrong, my understanding of EQ Pools is not flawed, I just didn't yet had the opportunity to read it so there is no real understanding at all

If they solve issues like "so guys, let's take all we can get our hands on which has even a 0,01% of being useful to increase our chance of surviva"l, consider my advice to "see if you like points for equipment rules" void in this case.

 

Well, my understanding is perfect either. For one, I was using the wrong term, which means it took a little while to find the section I was looking for (6th Ed Advanced Player's Guide) which is called "Resource Points." Essentially, you pay points to have a pool of equipment, and that sets the limit on what you can typically carry. To be specific: you buy 60 Resource points (which are 5 for 1 character point). This determines your maximum Kit. You start the campaign with an armory of 1.5 your Resource Points, so your max Armory at start is (in this case) 90. After the campaign starts, however, this is nothing officially limiting how many points you have in your armory (you can buy, acquire, and lose equipment as events unfold). You can only have on your person at any time, however, up to your Resource Points (Real Cost is what determines how many RPs you use). You can swap out between adventures at your Armory.

 

What you were describing earlier sounded very much like this, so that's why I thought you were talking about it.

 

As an aside, I will say that if you're pursuing a gritty feel, the impulse to maximize your chances of survival via acquiring every tool or item that you can is a natural result.

[Thane]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

True, but things like this often ruin mood - depending on playstyle of course. Some games may encourage such behavior, some may discourage it. Depends if you are going for "gritty&dangerous" as a feel and level of tension, or "gritty&dangerous" as in "truly realistic". I was thinking along the lines "if you want the mood set right you might think that players focusing on their 4 pages of equipment they have on the cart/horse/magic backpack/whatever else and browsing through them as a response to the threat is not a good idea - letting them focus on the threat and imminent danger, feel the tension instead may be a nice idea". Of course YMMV. It worked for me (even though I was going for tension alone, without the grittiness) so I thought I'd share my view about it with someone who is also new and probably doesn't even know "points for equipment" rules exist in HERO (I didn't).

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Well' date=' this absolutely eliminates the Surprised Out of Combat halving modifier, and strongly penalizes any attempts at Surprise Attacks (although they are still possible).[/quote']

Okay, how does it negatively affect your supprise attacks that your enemy can't apply his CSL in advance?

 

And apparently is was wrong, as the GM can allow application of CSL in advance:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86160-Setting-CSL-before-combat-starts?p=2193690#post2193690

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Okay, how does it negatively affect your supprise attacks that your enemy can't apply his CSL in advance?

 

And apparently is was wrong, as the GM can allow application of CSL in advance:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86160-Setting-CSL-before-combat-starts?p=2193690#post2193690

 

I'm not sure what you mean. For one, I never said that you couldn't assign CSLs in advance. I in fact felt that you could.

 

Furthermore, it won't affect YOUR surprise attacks. That doesn't make sense. Like the other example I provided, it deals with those attacking you. Thus, the benefits of assigning CSLs in advance include penalizing Surprise Attack bonuses that potential enemies might be seeking.

[Greywind]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

If you've got time to set your skills it isn't much of a surprise, is it?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Exactly the point. It is somewhat of a surprise, perhaps, but you're not catching them flat footed.

[Tasha]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

And here I think we disagree. That is letting the PC set the CSL before the Combat starts. Combat starts with the first participant making having his phase, no matter what taht phase is.

 

Drawnign Weapons, readiing Shields, takign in a formation are all legal. But you can't take a defense stance against an enemy (applying your CSL) until you know what you are dealing with and this will be only the chase once the fight starts - when both parties see each other and at least one party thinks "Initiative".

 

You are kind of right. Usually a GM will allow PCs to Turn on Defenses, Draw weapons, set CSLs, start hovering (if they have flight). This is if the PC's know combat is coming, or even if they want to be careful. ie The Dungeoneers are standing outside of a door. The PC's have heard movement inside of the room. So the GM allows the PC's time to get ready before the door is opened. Phase 12 begins the moment that the PC's open the door. This is similar anytime that the PC's can reasonably suspect that combat will begin. They are allowed to ready themselves for combat.

 

For NonCombat Surprise, ie the Dungeoneers outside the door getting ready have to idea of the secret doors that are behind them in the corridor. So as the PC's are fiddling around getting ready, I have the bad guys make their stealth rolls (concealment if they don't have to move), have the PC's make PER rolls (or do them myself). If the NPCs make their stealth rolls and the PC's all miss their PER rolls then we have Non-Combat Surprise. If the NPC's miss their stealth rolls and the PC's make their PER rolls then we have combat surprise (Full DCVs with no Combat Levels, and anything that requires being turned on/equipped being not ready.) Surprise is something that as a GM I like to keep semi rare. You get to the point of diminishing returns if you are constantly ambushing the characters. The Players will get very careful and the group will waste tons of time checking all of the minutae for no reason.

 

BTW this has gotten way off topic

[Tasha]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I find that Basic Heroic Level Fantasy is pretty deadly. Keeping the resistant defenses to about half the Damage Classes (ie 1d6 Killing attack = DC3 and 2d6 KA= DC6). It's usually pretty easy for PC's to be throwing DC 5-7 in a heroic level game. So keeping everyone in Leather (rDef 2), or Studded Leather (rDef3) can keep combats pretty deadly. Also using sectional armor allows for higher defenses, because you will have people in armor that covers their chest and abomen and part of their head, but will still have the legs, and arms bare or with lower def. Also enforcing encumbrance will make people easier to hit. This makes called shots easier to make. On top of that, one can use special weapons that do more than regular Killing damage. ie Armor Piercing which halves PD (Picks have AP), Arrows can have AP heads, Also there are hammers that do extra stun.

 

This is all without using the Disabling and Impairing rules, or the optional bleeding rules.

 

I have been playing Fantasy Hero for years, it's surprising how deadly it can be.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

BTW this has gotten way off topic

 

Not really. Discussing strategies and counter-strategies is entirely relevant to how to make the system deadlier.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

A less obvious way to make the game more deadly is to use one of the optional methods of buying Weapon Familiarities (Hero 6E1 page 94). I personally prefer the "No Categories" option(*). Any unfamiliar weapon is going to be attacking at -3 OCV which is a significant penalty (for the Everyman, reducing him to 0 OCV with that weapon). Depending on the number of points available, this could severely hamper a character in terms of raw martial mastery. Sure, he might be a wiz with that Sword, but if he was disarmed and picked up a random Spear for instance, his combat effectiveness is way down.

 

 

* For this discussion anyway. If I were to actually implement one of these rules it would be "No Categories, Sub Categories cost X points".

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Also, remind me, don't the rules say you cannot use CSLs with a weapon you don't have a Familiarity with?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Also' date=' remind me, don't the rules say you cannot use CSLs with a weapon you don't have a Familiarity with?[/quote']

 

I don't think they do. PSLs may not be purchased to offset the non-proficiency penalty, but they're more restricted than normal CSLs. Skill Levels may not be used with Familiarities or Proficiencies, but Weapon Familiarities don't work the same way. However, if I was the GM, I'd rule that CSLs couldn't be used unless the character has the appropriate WF.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

I'd allow it, I think, for CSLs for "All Combat" or "All HtH," and the like, but probably not for less than that.

[Lucius]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Really trying to cripple the warriors, are we?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Overkilling a palindromedary

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Do you think it's significantly unfair to not allow a PC to use CSLs without the corresponding WFs? This is just the initial thought that occurs to me, but if you (or a player) cared to persuade me I would be all ears. Certainly this isn't some profoundly held belief arrived at after deep consideration of the rules.

[Christopher]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Nothing in the rules say you need WF to use your CSL's for that weapon. Of course with a -3 OCV your will need all your skill levels just to hit normally.

 

About pre-set CSL's and suprise:

"A CSL (of any cost) applied to DCV is not Persistent[...]", but can be made so with Defense Maneuver IV (6E1 74).

 

That means even if they did set them in advance, and can use them against anyone else, if you suprise them they can't use them agaisnt your suprise attack (unless they also have DM IV)

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Really trying to cripple the warriors' date=' are we?[/quote']

 

WFs are cheap enough so it shouldn't be a problem. If I was making WFs more expensive I might be more lenient about using CSLs with unfamiliar weapons.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Yeah, I don't see any pressing reason to deny the use of CSLs if you don't have the WF. The OCV penalty should be harsh enough as is. However, if a player bought CSLs for a particular kind of weapon then I would heavily suggest to them that they at least get the 1-point WF for that weapon. Even super-archers are occasionally forced to pick up and use a normal bow that was just lying around. Especially if they decide to play out the old "go back in time and meet Robin Hood" scenario.

 

On the other hand, I don't see any reason to argue about it if I'm the player and the GM says I can't use my CSLs on a weapon I don't have the Familiarity for. The WF is supposed to represent the basic ability to use the weapon after all.

[Greywind]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Shouldn't that be the "go back in time and be Robin Hood" scenario?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Hero 6E More Dangerous (Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion) ?

 

Yeah' date=' I don't see any pressing reason to deny the use of CSLs if you don't have the WF. [/quote']

 

Seems to me that "all hand to hand combat" means just that, as does "all ranged combat" and "all bows". "All combat" doesn't mean "all combat unless you don't have WF", it means your general combat skill may help you offset the disadvantage you face using an unfamiliar weapon.

 

Broad skill levels are pretty expensive - more expensive than, say, just buying OCV. And your OCV works with unfamiliar weapons. To me, a skill level is shorthand for a Multipower of OCV, DCV and Damage, limited to use with certain maneuvers or attacks, so an extra limit OCV lacks seems inappropriate.