Denying a character his OIF

[budding voyager]

One of my players is running a character with some OIF, indestructible. I'm wondering how I could make sure he pays for the limitation in the same way that someone with RAR (11-) pays for their limitation (i.e. works about half the time). But taking a OIF away during combat is really hard (ideally, it happens during combat).

 

I was thinking of using a teleportation power, UAA with an Only Objects limitation. Special effect is a plant creature using several vines to rip it off of him. Anyone have any other ideas?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Well, OIF is only a -1/2 limitation, while an 11- activation is a -1, so the two aren't quite identical when it comes to frequency. The best way, IMHO, is to have things happen around his secret ID where he doesn't have access to his OIF (or at least will have to sit out the first Turn putting the Focus on).

 

What is the nature of the focus?

[budding voyager]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Oh I forgot about the additional -.5 if it has to be rolled each use.

 

He doesn't have a secret ID; he took a physical complication which makes that impractical. The focus is a pair of ankle brackets. He bought all his extra SPD with it so it would be interesting to see how he'd react if he lost it mid combat.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Well, in this case, not so much 'secret ID' as 'he has to take the things off sometime'. Mess with him then.

 

Technological, then, I'm assuming? Drop a Dispel vs electronics (EMP or the like) on him; they'll be fragged until he can fix them, as I understand the Dispel rules. If he doesn't have the right skills, he might be without them for a while.

[budding voyager]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Well, it's more of a magical thing. He's playing a character that claims to be a god, namely Set (and Set analogs throughout history). Even bought the Rivalry complication and competes with another PC who claims to be a different god.

 

Dispelling magic might be general enough to be reasonable. I'll have to look into it. I also rather like the idea of the antagonist noticing that the two major tanks in the group are magical and hires a wizard to something to handle it. But dispelling the item is not something I thought of.

 

I'm trying to come up with a variety of reasonable ways to deny inaccessible foci. I will say I'm entertaining a houserule so unbreakable and breakable aren't worth the same thing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

The big drawback to indestructible foci is that they aren't easy to replace; they're usually unique and you can't just put together a spare Mjolnir in your garage workshop. Eventually, he's going to lose a fight and get captured ... at that point, strip the whole team of their foci while they're in captivity/deathtraps. People with breakable, technological foci can escape and run for it and just replace their gear ... if this guy doesn't recover his anklet, he's kinda hosed. They'll have to find it before they leave.

 

Heck, with two gods on the team, one of them Egyptian, and Set being evil in mythology? Throw an avatar of Isis in there (goddess of, amongst other things, magic). If she can't Dispel Magic, nobody can.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

First off, it is somehow obvious his extra SPD comes from the ankle bracelets (that's what the "O" means), so if he's KO'd, anyone taking him captive would logically take them. As well, they're unbreakable. That's great in combat, but someone stealing them and just leaving the character lying there gives him a serious problem in recovering the focus (much like someone stealing Captain America's shield - Iron Man gets a new suit out of the warehouse, Hawkeye picks up a new bow and quiver back at the mansion, but Cap has to get along without the shield until he can recover it from whoever took it). Maybe some other wizard wants them, for whatever reason.

 

I might well start with a discussion of how the player envisions being limited by the OIF. Does he understand and accept that there will be significant periods of time where the focus will not be available, and his SPD will therefore be reduced? If he's not expecting that result, perhaps he should reconsider the limitation. No point ending up with hurt feelings because his and your expectations differed.

 

To me, because the unbreakable focus is difficult to replace, it would likely be a problem less often (it doesn't get damaged in combat, for example) but when problems do arise, they last longer as he can't just replace it. As such, Power Armor Man might have his armor break in combat, and be unable to use some of the powers it provides for the fight, or a longer period before he can replace/repair the armor. Anklet Man might have no issues for quite a while, but then be without the anklet for an extended story arc.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I would add to what has been said is, talk this over with the player first. Tell him what you intend and why - he got the price break and that has payback at some point. The player may have ideas on what might be nice story-wise and then you are working with him rather than screwing him over....

 

If he does not like the idea of it, then make the loss a story of how he comes to have something different that gives less strength or is limited in a different way...and change the limitation.

 

Doc

[Sidume]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

First - I'm not sure how this focus is "obvious" in what it does.

 

Second - If he doesn't take them off, it ain't a focus. Does he wear them in the shower? Could someone steal them? Can he use their abilities if he's under a mental illusion that they have vanished? Do they set off security scanners when he goes to the airport??

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I would add to what has been said is, talk this over with the player first. Tell him what you intend and why - he got the price break and that has payback at some point. The player may have ideas on what might be nice story-wise and then you are working with him rather than screwing him over....

 

If he does not like the idea of it, then make the loss a story of how he comes to have something different that gives less strength or is limited in a different way...and change the limitation.

 

Doc

 

This will probably come off a little harsher than I mean to. That said ...

 

One of the first things I learned as a player, one of the first things I tell players: Never take a limitation or a disadvantage that you don't want the GM to use. You got a cost break/points back for it, eventually the GM is going to cash in on it. If you took a vulnerability to Electricity, sooner or later you fight Megavolt. If you're Pyrophobic, sooner or later you're going to be tasked with rescuing people from a burning building. If you take a Focus, sooner or later, it's going to be rendered inaccessible. If you don't want to deal with that, don't take the limitation/disadvantage.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

The big drawback to indestructible foci is that they aren't easy to replace; they're usually unique and you can't just put together a spare Mjolnir in your garage workshop. Eventually, he's going to lose a fight and get captured ... at that point, strip the whole team of their foci while they're in captivity/deathtraps. People with breakable, technological foci can escape and run for it and just replace their gear ... if this guy doesn't recover his anklet, he's kinda hosed. They'll have to find it before they leave.

 

Heck, with two gods on the team, one of them Egyptian, and Set being evil in mythology? Throw an avatar of Isis in there (goddess of, amongst other things, magic). If she can't Dispel Magic, nobody can.

 

Clearly you have never read Planetary. Behold:

 

 

The bad guys destroyed an entire dimension just to have a place to keep all the miraculous weapons they stole from other dimensions.

 

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

This will probably come off a little harsher than I mean to. That said ...

 

You know - I was waiting but it was not harsh at all. :-)

 

All you say is true but in my experience players find coming up against weaknesses and other complications easier to handle than when you take their stuff off them. It may not be rational but there you go.

 

If Mr Ice is put into the situation where he needs to rescue people from a burning building then he goes for it. Players can be truly heroic in this situation.

 

If Mr Focus, loses his big offensive advantage and in the next session you have still not given him it back then I find words like unfair beginning to get bandied about.

 

However, if, just before I take it away, I talk to him, allow him to set some of the storyline where he can see the story advantages and the potential focus on his character and what might result from it, then it all is much easier.

 

I wasn't saying don't do it, just pointing out that, handled wrongly, it is a much more difficult one to run with than other limitations....

 

 

Doc

[Tech]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

If the character can never be denied his power, which is supposed to be through a focus, then the character cannot take a disadvantage on it. You don't get a break on the cost of a power if there isn't some sort of problem that comes into play with the focus. If the character cannot be at a disadvantage at some time, there's a problem with the write-up.

 

Quoting a certain 5th edition rulebook: "A Limitation which doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus!"

 

If it's a complication, I'd say the same thing but say it regarding the complication.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

You know - I was waiting but it was not harsh at all. :-)

 

All you say is true but in my experience players find coming up against weaknesses and other complications easier to handle than when you take their stuff off them. It may not be rational but there you go.

 

If Mr Ice is put into the situation where he needs to rescue people from a burning building then he goes for it. Players can be truly heroic in this situation.

 

If Mr Focus, loses his big offensive advantage and in the next session you have still not given him it back then I find words like unfair beginning to get bandied about.

 

However, if, just before I take it away, I talk to him, allow him to set some of the storyline where he can see the story advantages and the potential focus on his character and what might result from it, then it all is much easier.

 

I wasn't saying don't do it, just pointing out that, handled wrongly, it is a much more difficult one to run with than other complications....

 

 

Doc

 

True. On the upside, so far as we know, the guy only has his extra SPD bought through them, so it's not like throwing Tony Stark into a battle naked. He can still participate, albeit, well, not quite as frequently. I recall a game where I was playing a Trick Archer kind of character and, well, eventually we got captured and I had no bow and no arrows. Fortunately, my character could still participate because he had useful technical skills (facilitating the breakout), and a smidgen of martial arts (mostly throws). I wasn't dealing any damage at all, but I was setting people up left and right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Part of the problem with focus is that it's very binary. Much like "Power only works at night", you either have the focus (and its powers) or you don't, so it can be very easy to have a character who is either quite overpowered, or virtually useless. The player should clearly be aware that, if he has a 2 SPD without the focus, he can expect to have a 2 SPD at various times in the game. If he doesn't want that, reduce the limitation (OIAID is common for characters who rarely seem to lose that focus, but he doesn't seem to have an AID; maybe exotic means can shut it down so it's -1/4 restrainable and he might lose the ability for a combat now and then) or eliminate it (the power comes from the focus, but it's removal never happens, or it's a "once or twice in a campaign" event.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

If it's a complication' date=' I'd say the same thing but say it regarding the complication.[/quote']

 

I am not disagreeing - just pointing out that some impositions of the rules come with potentially more grief than others.

 

And I meant limitations - not complications.. . Will go edit now....

 

Doc

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I agree with Hugh's and Doc's suggestions about talking to the player. At the very least, it's a good idea to make sure you are both on the same page regarding what an OIF will mean during in-game play.

 

I would add that how you go about utilizing that Limitation in play depends upon how much power that OIF gives the player. If a lot of his powers come from it, then I would approach anything messing with the OIF as a fairly major plot point.

 

In a past Champions campaign, I blatantly stole an Iron Man plotline to affect a battlesuit-wearing character -- Utility began taking remote control of various battlesuit components -- turning off flight at an inopportune moment, or switching on or off various powers during combats. This started as minor inconveniences but, over a series of adventures, became a major plot for that character to solve.

 

I could see doing something similar with the PC in question, but using magic to mess with the artifact. I don't know the Egyptian pantheon well -- is there a Loki-type god of mischief? Does the PC have a powerful magical arch-foe? If not, this could be used to set up a long-term archnemesis for the PC -- somebody who wants that item for him/herself, perhaps, or has some other motivation like proving that character really isn't a god, or whatever.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Sorry, I missed the post stating that the extra SPD was bought on the OIF. Even if that's all it is, though, I'd still make it a major plot point. In fact, I might even go both ways with it -- one combat, he's moving slower than normal, and in another, he's moving a bit faster (maybe +1 SPD beyond his normal, but it's not consistent -- he keeps speeding up and slowing down randomly, so he also takes a penalty to his OCV and/or DCV). Just an idea.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

How much of his SPD is through the focus? It's generally a problem when a character builds Sucks Without Focus Man, and if it's something like 2 SPD without and 6 SPD with, fights without the focus are going to be a lot of watching other people do stuff. You might want to talk to the player about changing things to be more fun - having, say, some (but not all) attack powers through a focus, or some CVs, or some (but not all) defenses through a focus all tend, in my experience, to work better, because they tend to lead to "less effective without focus" rather than "nothing to do without focus."

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

You know - I was waiting but it was not harsh at all. :-)

 

All you say is true but in my experience players find coming up against weaknesses and other complications easier to handle than when you take their stuff off them. It may not be rational but there you go.

 

If Mr Ice is put into the situation where he needs to rescue people from a burning building then he goes for it. Players can be truly heroic in this situation.

 

If Mr Focus, loses his big offensive advantage and in the next session you have still not given him it back then I find words like unfair beginning to get bandied about.

 

However, if, just before I take it away, I talk to him, allow him to set some of the storyline where he can see the story advantages and the potential focus on his character and what might result from it, then it all is much easier.

 

I wasn't saying don't do it, just pointing out that, handled wrongly, it is a much more difficult one to run with than other limitations....

 

 

Doc

 

Good point. I try and make it a point during character creation, that Focus's ARE limitations. It's a point I Stress. Simply because to a LOT of people, you can do whatever to their character, rip off an arm or leg, blind the, kill the DNPC's, drop their vulnerability on them.....

 

Touch their STUFF though, and it's on like Donkey Kong. No rational reason for it either and the reactions can be fairly volatile. There hasn't been a focus orientated character in a comic that hasn't lost their focus at least once.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

True. On the upside' date=' so far as we know, the guy only has his extra SPD bought through them, so it's not like throwing Tony Stark into a battle naked. He can still participate, albeit, well, not quite as frequently. I recall a game where I was playing a Trick Archer kind of character and, well, eventually we got captured and I had no bow and no arrows. Fortunately, my character could still participate because he had useful technical skills (facilitating the breakout), and a smidgen of martial arts (mostly throws). I wasn't dealing any damage at all, but I was setting people up left and right. [/quote']

That is a important fact of taking Limitations: The character should still be able to do something heroic when he is denied his powers.

It is easy to put a OIF (Power armor) on all your powers, because then you can get more powers that way (lower Real costs). But once the focus is take away, he becomes Mr. "Stand on the sideline". So first buy the powers until you reach 400 points, then put the limitations on it and use the free points to buy something you can use without the focus (and preferebly with it too like Martial Arts).

 

Otherweise I agree with the "a Limitation that does not Limits is not worth any Points", "Players should talk with their GM if they are ready to loose it" and would like to add: Taking a limitation or complication always is a Request to the GM to make it part of the game.

[Tasha]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

One of my players is running a character with some OIF, indestructible. I'm wondering how I could make sure he pays for the limitation in the same way that someone with RAR (11-) pays for their limitation (i.e. works about half the time). But taking a OIF away during combat is really hard (ideally, it happens during combat).

 

I was thinking of using a teleportation power, UAA with an Only Objects limitation. Special effect is a plant creature using several vines to rip it off of him. Anyone have any other ideas?

 

BTW you can't take away an OIF during combat. By it's defination (Inaccessible) it takes time out of combat to remove (ie probably the same turn it takes to put on). Most OIF's are things like Powered Armor, Helmets, Headbands, Amulets with strong chains, rings etc. If you could grab them in combat they would OAF (ie Obvious ACCESSABLE Focus)

 

The best way to deal with characters with OIF is to have Out of Combat reasons for them to be out of armor. ie They are at the bank in normal ID when the Villains storm the bank to rob it.

 

OIF's are probably the most frustrating Foci to be without. As the Foci takes so long to put on, being without it can mean that character is without their power for the entire combat.

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

What makes the problem worse is that it is also a "indestructible", inacsessible focus. That means Dispels won't work (considered to have 16 times difficulty to dispel). Transform does not works either. But a drain/supress limited to only affect things created by Foci would work against it normally.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I've modeled Captain America's Shield with OIF Indestructable as it's base focus level. He can still lose it in combat however. If he chooses to throw it and either misses, gets deflected or grabbed he has to go get it back.

 

Another OIF example worth considering is the Utility Storage Device (Batman's Utility Belt, Green Arrow's/Hawkeye's Quiver) that aren't technically OAF they tend to operate that way due to the typical addition of Restrainable.

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Restrainable is your friend. Common Sense can factor into a lot of limitation builds fairly easily hence one of the things I've always liked about the HERO system. If you don't see it, you can make it.

 

~Rex