You Make the Call

[DJWebb]

So a prospective player who might be joining my group hit me with this:

 

18 pts Zeitgeist: Variable Power Pool (Knowledge Pool), 11 base + 7 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (26 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available Very Limited (Skills, Talents & Martial Arts Only; -1)

 

*Right off the bat I got a twitch because, to me it feels like jobbing the rules a bit. This would mean access to ALL Skills, Talents, and Martial Arts - when added together we are talking a metric ton of points for...18 points. Am I being too critical here?

 

A follow up to this, since I usually don't allow VPPs but you only have the amount of points to spend on "fill in the blank here" that is your BASE right? Example above the player would only have 11 points to go to a skill or skills or what have you. Correct?

 

In following the same vein this would mean that he could buy a skill at a base of 3 with +4 added to it if he wanted - and having a INT roll of 14- gives him an 18- on ANY skill, plus the overall levels he has purchased.

 

Looking for a little insight on the mechanics here, plus to see if anyone else has run across this as a GM and how you handled it.

 

Thanks,

 

MT

[RexMundi]

Re: You Make the Call

 

Your looking at a World of Hurt if you allow that. Especially with the Martial Arts Adder. I've done the skill VPP a few times, but it ends badly, and ends very badly when the martial arts are factored in. It's a bit less obnoxious if it's Martial Arts and Martial Arts Powers (Even the published example of such a character back in the 4e days was not as rules jobbing).

 

If he wants to do one of the I know Everything set ups, it balances better if you use the Universal set up presented in the Advanced Players Guide which would work as well in a 5th ed write up as it does in 6th.

 

~Rex....would say no.....it's not defined enough, and it's min maxed all to hell to get "around" things in the game and that's before the rest of the sheet hits the track running. Defined in terms of a Comic or Cinematic Example, and then we could talk.

[Doc Samson]

Re: You Make the Call

 

Skills (as Special Powers) and Talents are prohibited from Power Frameworks without GM permission for good reason. However, I might allow it if it was the character's primary or only power such as a Taskmaster or Finesse type character.

 

[edit] Also note, the rules legal way to do this would be a Multiform only VPP with the limitation only to change Skills, Talents, and Martial Arts but this is even more powerful as the character doesn't even have to include the VPP cost in each form.

[RexMundi]

Re: You Make the Call

 

Skills (as Special Powers) and Talents are prohibited from Power Frameworks without GM permission for good reason. However' date=' I might allow it if it was the character's primary or only power such as a Taskmaster or Finesse type character.[/quote']

 

Agreed, but not at such a min maxed structure as is presented here. Even with a well built and defined set up this would take some serious GM thought. I would still lean heavily towards a Universal "Skill" set up as per the APG befroe I allowed a super refined VPP that's basically Complementary Skill PLUS Martial Arts Maneuver of Choice on Demand, without there being a "Rest of the Package" to go with it.

 

~Rex

[Arkham]

Re: You Make the Call

 

It would be a rather quick 'Awww, hell no' from me, and I consider myself very lenient.

 

I would recommend it be built three powers or pools.

All Martial Arts - Multipower, 15 point pool

3m +3 OCV

3m +3 DCV

1m +15 STR - Only to cause damage -1

22 Total Points.

Being Multi-slots, the player can use as much OCV, DCV, or STR to create the maneuver they want to perform adding on to the basic everyman maneuvers.

 

20 - Universal Scientist ( All science skills at INT- )

20 - Universal Scholar ( All KS at INT- )

20 - Universal Geographer ( All AK at INT- )

 

Or just 39 points for KS: Everything 50- ( Assuming a base Int roll 14- as mentioned above ) And a similar SS: Everything 50-

 

And THEN a VPP

26 VPP - 15 Base 11 Control Cost ( Cosmic +2, 'Realistic' talent-based powers only )

And require any of the talent-style powers to actually be written up within the 15 AP limit of the pool.

 

 

Perhaps allow a -1/2 Lockout limitation on all the skills and pools so they can only use one of them at a time.

[DJWebb]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I've got the sheet and looking at all of the possible combos that can be pulled the character is easily 8-900 points for 5e...maybe a few points shy in 6e, hence the reasoning behind my wanting a second opinion rather then come off as a draconian GM.

[RexMundi]

Re: You Make the Call

 

It would be a rather quick 'Awww, hell no' from me, and I consider myself very lenient.

 

I would recommend it be built three powers or pools.

All Martial Arts - Multipower, 15 point pool

3m +3 OCV

3m +3 DCV

1m +15 STR - Only to cause damage -1

22 Total Points.

Being Multi-slots, the player can use as much OCV, DCV, or STR to create the maneuver they want to perform adding on to the basic everyman maneuvers.

 

20 - Universal Scientist ( All science skills at INT- )

20 - Universal Scholar ( All KS at INT- )

20 - Universal Geographer ( All AK at INT- )

 

Or just 39 points for KS: Everything 50- ( Assuming a base Int roll 14- as mentioned above ) And a similar SS: Everything 50-

 

See now that's much better.

 

~Rex...structure. It's Important.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: You Make the Call

 

The only time I've allowed a skill VPP was for a mentalist who had to first mentally connect with somebody possessing the skill he wanted, and even then he could only go as high as that individual's roll. So if he needed to be a doctor, he had to first find a doctor to "read" the skill from. That seemed self-limiting enough that I was okay with it.

 

The way the VPP is drawn up in the OP -- HECK, no! I would not allow that. Not only that, I would probably take a very close look at the rest of the character sheet, because that player has likely pulled similar potentially abusive stuff elsewhere.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: You Make the Call

 

With Cosmic, absolutely not, without a DAMN fine justification and even then it would be unlikely.

 

Now, a similar construct would be appropriate for, say, a character with cybernetics who can plug skillchips into his head, or maybe a robot who can download information from the Internet. But there would be more limitations on that (most notably, when and where you can change the powers so you can't pull a sudden spoiler with getting just the right skill).

 

But as-is, no freakin' way in the basement.

[Ice9]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I remember seeing something similar to this before - someone here proposed an alternate way to get the "can know any skill" effect, with a pricing that seems more appropriate:

1) Buy every skill at the 8- level, possible with an "Only when selected" limitation.

2) Get either Overall Levels or Boost (any skill) to amplify the one you have "selected".

 

For the purpose of KS/SS/PS skills, there's potentially no limit, so the Universal construct above would be a good idea.

[phoenix240]

Re: You Make the Call

 

Not a chance both for the reasons stated and the concept (I know everything) would likely be problematic in my style.

[Escafarc]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I've allowed Skill based VPPs without any problem but there was always some limit of some sort on what skills could be in it. I think that VPPs should be very well defined no matter kind they are.

[Starcloud]

Re: You Make the Call

 

11 points of skills, talents, and martial arts only, none of which can, individually, be more than seven points in active cost. I'd *consider* it, if it's the character's primary power, but I'd dump the Cosmic modifier. Either it takes a little time to adjust or it takes some kind of condition to adjust, or both. Further, I'd probably limit it to Skills and Martial Skills/Arts only.

 

What he's saying by creating this is "I want to be a skills monkey without paying too much for it. I want to be a combat monkey too. I want to have whatever talent I need. And I want to do it cheap because I still need to be effective in combat, so I'm going to have high characteristics/powers/whatever on the side."

 

Why does he feel this way? You might want to explore his motive for presenting this power.

[fbdaury]

Re: You Make the Call

 

Ok, purely as a 5th ed construct, first the above build is abusive, and here's why: In the USPD 1, the Reflex Memory power VPP is built as a Non-Cosmic build similar to this and even then the limitation for "Only to copy physical skills the character observes another using" is -1/2 so the -1 for only for skills and Martial Arts is right out- give at best a -1/4 limitation for limited powers for this build. That's if you decided to allow the power as-is.

 

Based on the name (I'm guessing the idea is that the character taps the universal subconcious to attain skills they do not have, correct?), I would counter the player with the following option:

Tapping the Zeitgeist- 15 pt VPP, Half phase to change (+1/2) and requires a Power:Tapping the Zeigeist skill roll at -1/10 active points; limited to skills/talents -1/4

- 26 active points, 24 active points plus cost of Power skill. This would alow the character to tap the Universal Subconcious to attain skills/talents they do not have but it requires that they take a half phase to "Scan" the Zeitgeist for the required information- think about trying to search the internet for a relevant website or piece of data without a search engine or time to load the information because that's what the original build proposes. Even then, letting them go with the Half Phase to change might be generous considering how much data they have to sift through to get the info... Also, might be nice flavor to have the character take a Susceptibility to failing a Power roll, as they are dazed by on uncontrolled flood of incomprehensible data into their brain.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I probably would not allow this. Cheesy in the extreme. I'd do a multipower with several slots to represent "all martial arts" abilities(Teleios from 6th ed does this) and the Universals Talents from the APG to cover the rest. As is...I'd only allow this with some limitations...and I wouldn't allow it to copy martial arts moves...just skills...period....assuming I allowed it at all..which again..is a long shot.

[ghost-angel]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I'd only allow it under specific conditions:

1) Reduce the Pool to 9 points, allows for effectively 3 Skills at base level for complimentary purposes

2) It were MORE limited: All Science Skills, Only Languages, Area and Culture Knowledges, etc...

 

Otherwise, given you tend to only use 1-3 skills at a time, it's not terribly game breaking. I've played with the above restrictions on multiple occasions without problems.

 

Adding in Talents and Martial Arts, however, is asking for a bit of pain and really sounds like gaming the system and not playing to a concept.

[Big Monkey]

Re: You Make the Call

 

The last time I allowed one of these sorts of things it was for a character whose power was "I've got the powers and skills of everyone around me" type, like Paragon or Amazo (both from DC Comics). In that case, the character's skill/martial arts VPP (and I required him to buy it separately from his powers VPP) had the limitation "There must be someone with Skill X within range". I forget the value of the limitation now, or the range for that matter, but with that limit it wasn't all that bad a game breaker.

 

This way, if he wants to crack a safe, he has to be within... say a hundred yards... of a safecracker. If he wants to fight like Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee needed to be within 100 yards. And so on.

 

* I just remembered. I had another character who had a similar VPP for "super-training"... basically, powers whose special effects made them operate like skills (for example, the character had Desolidification that was only useable to get into locked spaces... and it was defined as literally the ability to pick any lock, figure out any combination, and so on). I made the player write up a list of the specific powers he wanted, he was not allowed to add to that list without in-game training time and roleplaying, and had to justify each and every addition because my default answer was "Not on your life." Also not a game breaker.

[Balabanto]

Re: You Make the Call

 

I wouldn't allow this either. My advice is to buy a huge bunch of transformations for actions that count as "Performing the Skill" and still take the requisite time. For a 5E version of this, look at The Undead Skull's sheet in Foxbat for President, and convert to 6E with the requisite advantages.

[Asperion]

Re: You Make the Call

 

There is something to remember: just because he has knoweldge of how to do something do not mean that he can do it. He may look at this fighter and say "That is [fighting style]." When he is asked to give a demo of that style, he will fall on his you know what. Just because he could name all the parts of a computer does not mean that he could make one work, same thing with demolitions or any skill, talent, whatever. Actually using the abilithy requires more than "book knowledge", but actual experience that the VPP will not grant.

[Starcloud]

Re: You Make the Call

 

That's not the way it works. If he sets the VPP to the martial arts skills as they're defined under, say, Pa-kua in The Ultimate Martial Arts book, then he is in fact practicing Pa-kua.

 

The only point of confusion that may lead to your interpretation is if you consider martial arts maneuvers to be different than martial arts skills, and if the VPP were designed specifically around skills.

 

The proposed VPP includes martial arts combat, talents, and all skills.