"British Only": How much of a Limitation?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Your example speaks directly to the question of how limiting that particular power limitation and as such is relevant to how much the power should cost. pheonix240 statement isn't about the specific power but about the character as a whole and I feel that is irrelevant.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you can't consider power limitations in a vacuum. If you have an easy way to bypass that limitation, it's not that big of a limitation, and you don't get as big of a point break. If the guy with the 'only vs blondes' energy blast is on a team with Peroxide Man, who has a cosmetic transform that turns people blonde, his limitation is not that big of a limitation. He may still qualify for some limitation since it may be infeasible on occasion for Peroxide Man to set him up, but it would not be as big of a limitation.

 

It's the same thing as trying to claim a Phys Lim for having No Hands when you have Fine Manipulation TK, or 'Cannot Walk' when you have Flight. The negative effects are lessened, and so are the point breaks.

[Ranxerox]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Using another power that you had to pay full price for IMHO is not an easy way bypass a limitation. Now you are having to buy two powers at full and nearly full price to do what you could have done with a single power without the limitation.

 

Do you think that a character with flight at regular END cost and Teleportation at 5X END should not get the normal limitation value for for the Increased Endurance Cost because he can just get around it by flying?

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

RE: Blondes. It would depend if you mean ALL blondes, natural blondes only, or dyed blondes only.

 

That would work.

 

But you also have to take into account whether people still consider themselves to be British. Certainly the Scots and Irish still consider themselves to be of that ilk rather than say British.

 

How do you build a power so that it's weaker versus less "pure" targets?

[Ranxerox]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

There may be an easier way to do it, but you can build it in parts. X number of dice for any British blood at all, + Y more dice if they are at least 1/4 British, +Z more dice if they are actual Brits.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

We're discussing Limited Power, not Increased Endurance Cost.

5e, pg. 194, under 'Limited Power':

"To repeat: a Limitation which doesn't limit a Power gives no bonus! A character will receive no bonus for Life Support which Only Works When Using Desolidification if his Desolidification has the Always On limitation. Similarly, if a character too the Limitation Only Works In Intense Magnetic Fields on his Energy Blast, and his buddy on the team just happens to generate intense magnetic fields as a special effect -- sorry, he gets no bonus (or a very small one, if they don't work together all the time.)"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

It isn't as limiting if my 10d6 Blast only effects blondes if I have another 10d6 Blast or even a 9 1/2d6 Blast that will work on them instead of no other viable attack option. Limitation values should' date=' IMO, be baed on the entire character and the setting not taken in isolation. One character loses nothing or not much at all (they can't do Multi Attacks using that Blast on blondes, for instance), the other loses the ability to combat the opponent directly at all. It seems fair that the latter character would save more than the former. YMMV.[/quote']

 

I disagree. The character with another viable attack option spent points for that second attack, not just for the ability to MPA. 10d6 Blast (50 points) + 10d6 Blast (Blondes only -1 = 25 points) costs 50 points more than a 10d6 Blast, Blondes only. He could, I suppose, buy a 10d6 Blast, Blondes only and a 10d6 Blast, not vs Blondes for 25 points each, paying 50 points in total, and being able to MPA to affect anyone, at double the END cost of just buying a 10d6 Blast with no limitations.

 

It's the same thing as trying to claim 'only in intense magnetic fields' as a -2 limitation when you' date=' or someone you associate with frequently, can generate intense magnetic fields. It becomes a lot less limiting, therefore you don't get as big of a point break.[/quote']

 

And if the character who has an EB, Blondes only, also has the ability to change the target's hair colour quickly and reliably, he should get a reduced limitation. Having another attack does not make the EB, Blondes only, useful any more frequently, so that power is just as limited. That power is limited, so it gets a reduced cost.

 

Should we vary the cost of Increased END depending on how much END the character has? It's less limiting to spend extra END if I have 100 END and 20 REC than if I have 20 END and 4 REC, isn't it? The higher your movement rate, the easier it is to recover a focus, so we should vary that as well, at least for accessible foci, right? Clearly, if the character can also do things without his focus, its limitation should be reduced, right?

 

Having the ability to create an intense magnetic field increases the frequency with which you will be in an intense magnetic fiels, so it reduces the frequency of that specific power being limited. Having a second attack which also works outside an imntense magnetic field does not change how limited the power usable only in an intense magnetic field is.

[Lucius]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

I'm with Ranxerox and Hugh Nielson on this.

 

If I have a Blast that only effects blonds, AND a Cosmetic Transform to blond, I should get a Limitation but probably not as much as if I didn't have the Transform attack. Against most targets, I can use that Blast eventually, even if I have to use a phase or two first bleaching their hair.

 

But if I have a Blast that doesn't effect blonds and some Martial Arts that hurt blonds as much as anyone, that second attack does NOT let me use the Blast any more often. It's still useless against blonds, so the Blast gets the full Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Imposing Not Vs. Palindromedaries as a universal -0 Limitation. After all, when have you ever wanted to attack a palindromedary?

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

As tangentially related as the Blondes side-topic is, can we please discuss it in another thread?

[Ranxerox]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

But we like talking about blonds..

[Tasha]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

I would make the point that you are British if you come from Britain. Once you emigrate and get into a first generation you start losing the ancestry. So by two to three generations down the line you are of the country you are in. So American or Australian as that is where some of this may come from. Or nowadays Spain.

 

A friend's father was Argentine, but IDed as being British (being white and of the British people who colonized Argentina long ago). Remember that the Folk from the Falkland Islands(part of Argentina) think of themselves as being British. That's why the British fought so hard to hold on to the isles back in the 80's.

 

I think that it should be based on both/ either having lived in Great Brittan for a certain amount of time. Also their Spirit of being British. ie how the Identify themselves.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

I think that it should be based on both/ either having lived in Great Brittan for a certain amount of time. Also their Spirit of being British. ie how the Identify themselves.

 

Did I miss the power description somewhere? I think your definition is a potentially valid definition, but not the only potentially valid definition. That's part of what makes it hard to define the limitation, in my opinion - how we define "British" determines what proportion of the population as a whole the power might impact. Of course, the other aspect is how common those who are British will appear in the game.

 

I hope we would all agree that this limitation would be worth a whole lot less in a game set in the American Revolutionary War (about as much as "only vs Nazis" in a WWII behind enemy lines game) than in a globetrotting pulp campaign or a standard Supers game.

 

To the "Blondes" issue, if you substitute "British" for "Blondes", you have the same questions. If the character has one or more other attacks that would be effective against all nationalities, or all cultures, or all citizenships, or all "whatever test we are using to define British", CC would award a lower limitation than if this is his only effective attack, so he's got a lot more problems dealing with non-British opponents.

 

How you would make a target British, I don't know. A lot depends on the test used (Transform Passport?), and how silly the game might be (Transform into British Stereotype of Character?).

[Bloodstone]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

But we like talking about blonds..

 

The fact Tasha posted right after this comment amuses me.

 

As tangentially related as the Blondes side-topic is' date=' can we please discuss it in another thread?[/quote']

 

Okay, well..

 

We don't have many details of the campaign or the SFX of power, so we are still taking shots in the dark about the value of the limitation still...

 

It's already been mentioned that you can build an attack that is progressively more effective against progressively "more British" targets by using the partially limited power options.

 

What else still needs to be covered?

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

you can build an attack that is progressively more effective against progressively "more British" targets by using the partially limited power options.

 

Where in the book(s) is this mentioned?

[dmjalund]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Where in the book(s) is this mentioned?

I think it's in the APG

[Lucius]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Remember that the Folk from the Falkland Islands(part of Argentina)

 

Part of Argentina according to the government of Argentina. Not part of Argentina according to the people actually living there.

 

think of themselves as being British.

 

The Argentine government's position on the issue is more complex, but Falkland Islanders who choose to be Argentine citizens are recognized as such by Argentina.

 

My understanding is that the United States is officially neutral on the issue.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary's position is that it claims the Falkland Islands on a roll of 3-10 and claims Easter Island, Guam, and Diego Garcia on a roll of 11-18 but only if Zornwil is rolling the dice

[Martin2]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

It isn't as limiting if my 10d6 Blast only effects blondes if I have another 10d6 Blast or even a 9 1/2d6 Blast that will work on them instead of no other viable attack option. Limitation values should' date=' IMO, be baed on the entire character and the setting not taken in isolation. One character loses nothing or not much at all (they can't do Multi Attacks using that Blast on blondes, for instance), the other loses the ability to combat the opponent directly at all. It seems fair that the latter character would save more than the former. YMMV.[/quote']

 

Being a Brit that has been on holiday I am little late to this interesting discussion .

 

But you could also throw similar arguments for being a blond.

 

Is this natural blonde, dyed blonde, those who were blonde when young (I have dark hair but was blonde as a child), those who have dyed there hair blonde once?

 

Would that be a different modifier for each?

 

OK I will continue with my interesting read .

[Martin2]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

We had a similar discussion about a detect evil power.

 

Evil is not written on most character sheets. So a GM has to give them an evil rating to each character to see if the villain is effected by the detect power.

 

As with most character sheets they will not have a section that will indicate if the target has any link to GB. So the GM may have to make it up and then sometimes get it wrong.

 

As mentioned the British Isles has had a very varied history and a lot of cultures have invaded etc and decided to stay. So the definition of being British will have to be defined by the GM.

 

We currently have a lot of imigration from Europe due to the free health service for all, high benefits and a European law that states you have to employ equally all European members (even though they may not have English as a first language or speak English at all etc).

 

So someone who is born in Britain will have a British pass port and be a British citizen but who came from another part or Europe and knows nothing of the culture and may only stay a short time before going "home".

 

We also have an Olympic games coming up and a lot of foreign athletes are gaining British pass ports just for that event. Will they be effected?

 

As other people have pointed out the British Empire has been involved in a lot of spreading its people around the world and some would define themselves as British and some would not even know or would definately not associated themselves with being British.

 

A very compicated limitation to try and cost and a lot of work for a GM.

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

A very compicated limitation to try and cost and a lot of work for a GM.

 

Depends on the GM, i'd say.

[Greywind]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Who decides what "evil" is? Some of the great villains actually believe they are acting in everyone's best interests.

[Martin2]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Depends on the GM' date=' i'd say.[/quote']

 

Yes and they have to assign the limitation value and define your definition of being British.

 

I think the relevant GM should come on and pass on the limitation value and his definition of being British and the player to pass comment .

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

That seems really ... weird

 

I thought RPGers were supposed to both have an open mind, and creativity in spades.

[McCoy]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

I thought RPGers were supposed to both have an open mind' date=' and creativity in spades.[/quote']

So another stereotype bites the dust.

 

Part of the problem is we're not sure where you're going with this. Sounds like this might be a character who is "the rightful king of all Britain," and able to command his subjects. So this would be a verbal "mind control," with the limitation "British only." If so, my idea of "self-identification" would fit. Then we would need to know whare the character plans to be operating before we could estimate a value, in North America, a -1 might be approperate, in South America, would be higher, in England, +0. What did I say in the second post of this thread?

Gonna need more context.

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

Nah, they just have powers that affect the British only, and they travel quite frequently (indeed, it is a rare occasion for them to be in any one city for more than a week).

 

Also, what stereotype?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

QUOTE=Ragitsu;2213676]Nah, they just have powers that affect the British only

 

Please define "British". Not just repeating it - what does it mean, from the perspective of this power, to be "British" and "not British"? For example:

 

- "when asked about his ethnic background, the character's response is, in his heart if not on his lips, 'British'"

- "the character was born of two persons who, at the time, were citizens of Great Britain"

- the character's primary residence is somewhere in the British Commonwealth

- the character has a non-expired British passport

- at least 50% of the character's great-grandparents were born in the United Kingdom

- the character speaks English with an accent associated with a nation in the British Commonwealth

- the character knows the words to "God Save the Queen" and can tell you how many bails are on a cricket wicket

- the character speaks fluent English

- the character measures distance in feet and miles, volume in pints and gallons and weight in ounces and pounds

 

If we don't know how you define "British", we can't make a rational assessment of how common it is.

[Ragitsu]

Re: "British Only": How much of a Limitation?

 

 

Please define "British". Not just repeating it - what does it mean, from the perspective of this power, to be "British" and "not British"? For example:

 

- "when asked about his ethnic background, the character's response is, in his heart if not on his lips, 'British'"

- "the character was born of two persons who, at the time, were citizens of Great Britain"

- the character's primary residence is somewhere in the British Commonwealth

- the character has a non-expired British passport

- at least 50% of the character's great-grandparents were born in the United Kingdom

- the character speaks English with an accent associated with a nation in the British Commonwealth

- the character knows the words to "God Save the Queen" and can tell you how many bails are on a cricket wicket

- the character speaks fluent English

- the character measures distance in feet and miles, volume in pints and gallons and weight in ounces and pounds

 

If we don't know how you define "British", we can't make a rational assessment of how common it is.

I already said "Ancestry". At this point, it seems like most people in this thread want to invent some kind of complaint about using a term, than trying to help (at least) get general guidelines. There ain't a whole ot granularity between -1/4 and -2, and certainly not when increasingly specific examples of what it means to be British keep being created...so this isn't exactly as complicated as some are trying to make it to be.

 

For those of you that didn't, thank you.

 

Edit: For curiosity's sake, however, what would you price the Limitation if it only worked towards people that thought of themselves as British?